Played the X Series? X3: Reunion is amazing, like Privateer.

Let the flames roll in...
Err... yeah, well I suppose you can talk about other stuff as well, maybe?

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Spare-Flair
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Played the X Series? X3: Reunion is amazing, like Privateer.

Post by Spare-Flair »

I'm a long time Privateer fan and I just got into the X series via the third game, X3 Reunion.

X3 really reminded me a lot about Privateer and what it has in a very open universe (and absolutely beautiful engine - the best space sim engine to date), it lacks in the plot and storytelling elements of Privateer.

I'm astonished by the amount of depth and freedom in the game, much more than was ever in Privateer, and even more astonished by the enourmous size of the 3rd party community base. The X forum has over 153744 registered users and millions of posts and 3rd amongst the world's most visited phpbb forums. This means there's an enourmous modding and scripting community that has already very much successfuly modded most of the elements of the game and it makes me yearn for some sort of Privateer usage of this game.

I just felt the need to share the fact that there is a great looking, new Privateer like experience with X3 for those of us that love the freedom of adventure and exploration of a space sim. X3 is mostly focused on the freedom with an enourmous universe with hundreds of sectors to explore, 7 races that have dynamics between them, a enourmous universal economy, etc. You aren't just relegated to a small fighter like in Privateer. You can build you own stations, be on the bridge of a capital ship, have an entire fleet if you desire. The big problem is that the plot in the game is more of an afterthought and is generally not that well done.

Also, the game was released prematurely due to publisher demands and there were release problems in the US (wrong CDs, wrong manual), and the game's great engine is extremely slow on even the best computers, but they are being fixed with patches.

I just urge you fellow Privateer fans to check out X3, I don't think you'll regret it (at least when 1.3 patch is released). Sometimes I just park my ship in space, looking out over a planet (with actual weather patterns!) and just watching how beautiful the game is.

http://www.egosoft.com/games/x3/screenshots_en.php

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I only wish Privateer could be remade to take advantage of an engine like this. I miss landing on planets, I miss having a real character, having real conversations. Visiting Oxford, New Constintinople, going to bar just to listen to the music. X3 is an amazing game nonetheless, with a much much larger universe, much more dynamics, and way more freedom than Privateer ever had. I just wanted to share with other Privateer fans that yes, space sims are still being made, and in this genre of free exploration.

Back in Privateer, one of my favorite things to do was to slowly beat ships to a pulp with mass drivers, taking out all the systems until they were red. Orions were my favorite targets, until they were just hulks floating in space and I'd imagine the pilot inside totally panicking. In X3, one of my favorite features trumps this by allowing you to shoot up a ship so much, that sometimes you can cause the pilot to panic and eject to survive but then his ship is intact and you can then scoop up the enemy pilot into your cargo, then eject from your own ship and travel in your space suit to the newly disabled ship and take over it's systems and then it becomes your property! Then for the real fun, you go find a pirate base and sell the ship's previous owner into slavery! :)

Some guy is importing Wing Commander ship models into X3.
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Tie Fighter anyone?
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http://forum2.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=126698
^
27 new ships including Star Fury, a bunch of Star Wars, Wing Commander, Aliens ships, Shipyards, stations, etc.
Last edited by Spare-Flair on Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by MamiyaOtaru »

I played X2 and liked it a lot. There was a short thread about X3 earlier, where I talked about why I won't try it. The short version is: Starforce. Follow the link for more.

X2 was quite fun though, and I imagine 3 is more so. Very open, letting you own stations and stuff. In X2 it grated on me a little that I could somehow end up building a ton of new stations while the rest of the universe stayed the same. I didn't like being the only one who was expanding. I believe that changed for 3, in that AI is working to expand as well. Wish I could take part.

My old base was in Redlight system, would be great to see how it looks now.
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Post by blue_paladin42 »

I have never heard of this before. But it looks beautiful. Trouble is, when I first saw the thread title, I was wondering what megaman had to do with anything :P
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Post by Spare-Flair »

Not playing a game on principle of copy protection is fine, but you are cheating yourself and also the only developer left that is really commited to producing space sims.

I hate Starforce personaly, but it's working fine for me. There's also a way around it, but even if I did that, I would still have purchased the game to support the developer (Egosoft). It's the publishers (Enlight/Deepsilver) that are using Starforce. Believe me, the pirate way of dealing with Starforce is way more instrusive and bad for your system (uses multiple tools to disable all your optical drives) than just going with Starforce. Starforce does not screw with your system and Starforce has offered $3000 to anybody who can prove it causes damage to your system. It's instrusive and annoying, but it isn't on the level of a Sony Rootkit. This game has no multiplayer and it doesn't even have a CD-Key check. They need Starforce because it's a small developer and they can't afford to lose money to piracy like the bigger houses because niche games like these don't sell much volume.

After the death of the Freespace and Homeworld franchises (not to mention Wing Commander) because of poor sales, I really feel the need to support the few people left dedicated to making these games.

I'll just say that you're missing a great experience with X3.

I wanted to point out X3 here because the X3 community is soon coming out with their own software to modify 3D models and there's already a slew of script editors and other things. I feel that Privateer would make a great translation utilizing this engine.
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Post by forlarren »

Sadly I really wanted to buy this game. But I will not have starforce installing on my computer.
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Post by blue_paladin42 »

Starforce, huh? First I have heard of it really, but I am not surprised it exists. Its sounds kinda like that whole deal with sony audio CDs, which install programs on your system when used, that act much like spyware.

And while I understand the reasoning behind copy protection, it really does more harm than good. I can't get some games to run because the copy protection is so hard core, like star wars battlefront II. And I don't really think publishers lose THAT much money to piracy, despite what they say, especially considering games cost so much nowadays. I literally can't afford to to buy computer games anymore. (Don't misunderstand me, I try to avoid software piracy on any games I can purchase legally.)

Gotta admit its a pretty game though.
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Post by MamiyaOtaru »

Spare-Flair wrote:Believe me, the pirate way of dealing with Starforce is way more instrusive and bad for your system
Yeah I'm aware. Unplugging Optical drives etc. Note that I didn't say I would pirate it, I said I won't try it. Not buying it, not pirating it, nothing.
They need Starforce because it's a small developer and they can't afford to lose money to piracy like the bigger houses because niche games like these don't sell much volume.
But they can afford to lose money from people not buying it due to lame intrusive addon software? That's their choice, they get to live with it.
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Post by starhawk »

I installed X3 on my computer and a couple days later my kids destroyed the play disk. If i had a nocd crack I'd still have that play disk. Thanks StarCrap. Now i've still got x3 on my machine but I can't play it. As far as modding that engine for privateer, it would make a great looking game but on many, many machines it would be a slide show because of its poor performance.
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Post by klauss »

I've had some experience with StarForce.
Needless to say... I removed every bit of it.
I don't like it... not that it brought me trouble or anything, but it really acts as spyware rather than honest software.

A) It installs itself without asking confirmation. "Installing copy protection software (whether you like it or not)".
B) It claims to uninstall itself... to later reappear.
C) It installs itself at kernel level... come on... they didn't need to go that far. That's just bad software design. Try that on linux.
D) It's not that hard to bypass either - without unplugging drives or anything. Just modify a few bytes in the .exe (the right ones). I had a legal copy, and didn't publish the results... it's not piracy, it's "fixing the exe". Took me a couple hours.
E) If I fixed it so easily... it's not that much protection... is it?
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Post by blue_paladin42 »

Its sad that pirated games work better than legal copies in many cases today. And those that have legal copies must modify the games to get them to run. And then they wonder why people pirate games. Well, that and the high price, but I already went there :P
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Post by Elegnaim »

I don't have a hard time believeing that companies lose a lot of money on PC software piracy. I mean, to put it bluntly, most of my friends are PC gamers, to some extent. I'm the only one of them that actually buys the games. To extend this, I also think music piracy is an issue, because, between all of my friends, I'm the only person who pays for CDs. If companies want to put harder copy protection methods in their games, then I'm all for it. PC gaming is dying, and I do think that rampant piracy is involved.

Also, the price of games today is substantially lower than it used to be. NES games used to be 80-100 dollars a pop. SNES games, too. I have an old ad that lists Chrono Trigger as... 70, or something, FFIV as... 50, and FFVI as... either 60 or 70.
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Post by forlarren »

Well there are much better ways than copy protection. How about the lost art of the manual. I use to love a great manual. Or how about a poster or map included with the box. Or supply a demo of the game so I don't have to pirate it just to give it a spin and see if I like it (been ripped off by a crappy or not working game way too many times). And yes I have a habbit of loosing or breaking the CD especally if I am required to constantly take it out and put it away just to play the game. If starforce is broken (ie no disable optical drives hacks, and no starforce installing on my comp) then I may buy it. If not. Well privateer is pretty fun.
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Post by starhawk »

Well I now have all the X games, and my wife bought another copy of x3 so i'd have the play disk that got shattered. I guess thats a small victory for starforce and a 48 dollar loss to us, But no more, as much as I love the x games I won't buy any future x games with starcrap sneakware. Oh yeah, just a bit off x topic but,
I'm new to these forums so I'd like to thank all those who made privateer remake possible. It's just an outstanding piece of work, it has the feel of the old original but smooth clean graphics and control. Great work!!!!
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Post by Elegnaim »

"I guess thats a small victory for starforce and a 48 dollar loss to us,"

Not really. X3 wouldn't be on any of the major torrent listings anyway. It's too obscure. Your own solution would be to have someone EMAIL you a copy of the playdisk, which isn't terribly feasible. Besides. Most companies assume that you won't let your discs get broken. You shouldn't have let your kids been playing with it.

"How about the lost art of the manual."

Nobody cares about manuals anymore. I mean, I don't even care that much. They're nice, but as a frequent buyer of used and obscure software, I get used to the games not having much beyond their disc.

And besides. Would you rather have some small validation software installed once, or would you rather have all the text stored in an external manual, which you'd have to read through every time you talked to an NPC?

Frankly, the people complaining about starforce really just strike me as the sort of slashdot junkie technogeeks who complain and anything, no matter how minute it is.

Besides. My PC is slow and stuff. I don't have Starforce running.
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Post by starhawk »

You must have perfect kids, mine are typical and get curious like young children do. I guess I could buy a vault and put my play disks in that, but that would be a bit inconvienant. Besides no matter how much I baby those disks they get a bit scratched everytime they go in and out of the drive. I just want to protect my investment in a game more effectivly. "slashdot junkie technogeeks" LOL !!! Where do I sign up !! LOL !!! No wait I guess I'm already in . LOL !!
oh well, in a perfect world all one would have to do is say "No one touch my disks" and all would be well but in the words of one modern philosopher "*!@$ Happens"
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Post by forlarren »

I said nothing about putting all npc interaction text in the manual. So quit with the strawmen. I for one really liked the manual for privateer remake. Its a little out of date now but even so I went to kinkos and had it printed out. In any sufficiently complex game a good manual is worth its weight in gold. An easy place to list keybindings (perferably on a removeable card inserted into manual), maps, mood setting fiction, history, game play tips, a place for notes, FAQs, and though it may be beyond you some of us accually like dead tree.

"slashdot junkie technogeeks" sure name calling, stick to something else your not even good at it.
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Post by Elegnaim »

I don't see how including bigger manuals will stop piracy, though, short of installing some sort of irritating keyword look up system. Nobody buys games for the manual. They buy them for the game. Also, it saves money to include the manual in a PDF format only. Lower production costs == lower end user costs, kids.
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Post by JonathanD »

I'm sorry, but I have to go for the "include a nice manual" angle. Theres something about a well-designed user manual in your hands that makes a big difference, but maybe I'm just old fashioned.

Lets be honest here, most of the games today are pretty shallow and most are just the "same old thing." A good manual with good content, background, etc, can really set a game apart.
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Post by MamiyaOtaru »

Elegnaim wrote:Frankly, the people complaining about starforce really just strike me as the sort of slashdot junkie technogeeks
if you don't like that sort of person, perhaps you are in the wrong place ;)

I shall now speak in the voice of a fictional person I call "bob":

[bob] I like games. I buy them when they are worth my dollar. Lately though many games have had the unfortunate added baggage of intrusive "copy protection." Said protection is always broken, and te broken version is more convenient to play than the legitimate version. Those who download the cracked versions don't ahve to insert the CD to play. They don't need new CD drivers.

Half Life 2 was one such game. I hate Steam. I refuse to have it. I downloaded a cracked version of Half Life 2 that did not require it. It used fewer resources and ran smoother than the legitimate version did for many people with its extra processes running in the background, ad I didn't have to worry when Steam went down.

Something like Starforce, which has untill now represented a copy protection without a general crack, might be seen as a victory. Pirated copies are no longer convenient. However, that doesn't mean that I will play the shrink wrapped version instead, I will simply not play it at all. So is it really a victory? before I might have paid for a copy and then played the version with the noCD crack, like I did with Half Life 2. Now I simply will not touch it with a ten foot pole.

PC Gaming survived and thrived for years with weak copy protection. It is getting stronger, and sales go down. I posit that sales going down is partly the effect as well as the cause. [/bob]

Bob's voice has been cobbled together from many opinions I have read n the internet. The things he said are things I have read, and tend to agree with.

My computer is a tool. Its gaming functions are secondary. I am not going to compromise it to play some game that's just like a thousand others, only with better graphics. The most obvious manifestation of this philosophy is my refusal to keep Windows around just to play some newer games. Why should Starforce expect any better? If I still had Windows, why would I destabilize it further to play a game?

More and more people think that way, and are purchasing consoles: machines dedicated to gaming. I prefer PCs for the easy ability to mod games and the generally greater complexity of games, but my PC is not a gaming platform (and is a good deal more expensive than consoles), and I won't be dictated to by games companies. Playing their games (and dealing with their crap) is not my greatest goal, so they can take a flying leap.

They've overstayed their welcome as far as I'm concerned. The much harder copy protection in consoles doesn't piss me off to nearly the same degree, because it doesn't introduce instability to systems whose primary function is something other than gaming. If gaming companies are wary of the power and openness of computers (which will unfortunately allow some to make illicit copies of their games) they can get the hell out. They can stick to consoles, where they can be in complete control, and with their behaviour and treatment of me lately, I won't miss them.

Those who feel differently are welcome to continue paying for the dubious privilege of Starforce, but sales figures say those numbers are declining. Fine by me.

And now, unless I get a minute to log on in the morning, I shall be out of touch until sometime early next year. Trips to different continents will do that to one's communications :) Until then!
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Post by Gosshawk »

I agree completly MamiyaOtaru. the very nature of computers allows so much freedom to those with the will to exersise it. for companies to try to change the nature of the beast is both costly and unnessasary.
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Post by klauss »

Elegnaim wrote:Not really. X3 wouldn't be on any of the major torrent listings anyway. It's too obscure.
Ehm...
http://ts.searching.com/search.asp?query=X3&h=

Now... how much did they pay for StarForce? I don't think it was worth it... but who am I to argue their department heads?
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Post by Elegnaim »

Just wondering, but apparently there's a crack for it. Anyone tried it yet?

I also read that Demon Tools can burn CDs that... get around the Starforce thing, or emulate it, or something. Well, if someone ever works out a crack for this, do tell, because I am rather interested in the game.
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Post by forlarren »

While I hate starforce, I will not be aiding your attempt to infrenge in their copyright. And moreso I would warn aginst trying as it is very easy to bork your computer in the attempt.
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Post by mkruer »

Moved thread because it has long sense lost any relevance to the original topic
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Post by Ryder P. Moses »

DaemonTools does not "burn" CDs, it creates a virtual CD drive and emulates copy protection off of ISOs. Alcohol 120% burns CDs with copy protection, but personally I never bother.

And the workarounds for StarForce are really quite simple- a little more annoying than just downloading a crack, since you actually have to, y'know, click a mouse three times to disable it, and I guess it could potentially foul your system a little if you screwed up real bad, but it's really not a big deal at all. The Starforce games I've got running off my hard drive actually run better than most of the legitimately bought games I have- no CD-related spazz-outs, for one.

Starforce is mostly annoying because it sucks resources and can't be deactivated at all short of backing up the relevant parts of your hard drive and then reformatting. But it's a very minor annoyance, really- its memory footprint is tiny compared to, say, Windows, I've yet to run into any of the programs it supposedly deactivates, and it isn't very difficult to break once you know how [ed- not sure about the warez policies here].


Also- heh, the text-in-manual thing, I remember that. Wasteland, right? Were there others?
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