That Closed OS (any of them)

Let the flames roll in...
Err... yeah, well I suppose you can talk about other stuff as well, maybe?

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That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by eracc »

Anyone: Why exactly do you think you need a freedom killing Microsoft OS or Apple system instead of a liberating FOSS system such as a Linux distribution or a *BSD? Serious answers only please. Hopefully this thread can shed some light on why and how you might be able to break the chains that bind you to closed, proprietary, freedom denying systems and software. :)
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by travists »

Cons
  1. Market share:Far more applications are built for Windows
  2. Compatibility:While there is wine, it is not 100% for all programs written for Windows
  3. Buy in: unless it is your first computer, you have a lot of software that may or may not work when you change operating systems, and would then either have to give up or buy new.
  4. Hardware: The Linux community has been great in this regard, but you still run into hardware that just does not have drivers for Linux.
  5. Lack of local support: in smaller markets, there are few if any computer shops with extensive Linux support. If it is your only computer how do you get help?
Pros
  1. Stable and proven
  2. large and helpful community
  3. Secure
  4. Growing support
  5. inexpensive, many free
  6. Often able to access failing drives when Windows can't!
  7. Light on resources
I have used DSL and Puppy, I like Linux just have too much stuff on my current machine to make the switch. Well, I could, just don't feel like the headache. Have played with having it on one of my flash drives and booting there though! That can be fun.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by eracc »

travists wrote:Cons
  1. Market share:Far more applications are built for Windows
  2. Compatibility:While there is wine, it is not 100% for all programs written for Windows
  3. Buy in: unless it is your first computer, you have a lot of software that may or may not work when you change operating systems, and would then either have to give up or buy new.
  4. Hardware: The Linux community has been great in this regard, but you still run into hardware that just does not have drivers for Linux.
  5. Lack of local support: in smaller markets, there are few if any computer shops with extensive Linux support. If it is your only computer how do you get help?
...
Let's just take the cons and explore those from my perspective.

Market share + applications for "Windows" - This is a red herring argument in most cases. Sure, one can find a few business cases where this matters. But, unless there is a required application one needs that only runs on a Microsoft OS, then this is a non-issue. Which Microsoft based applications (not games) are you needing for which there is not a FOSS alternative? Don't give me the tired old Adobe Photoshop argument unless you really do need that for something that cannot be done with The GIMP and its plug-ins.

Compatibility - WINE? Really? What Microsoft based programs are needed for which WINE would be required? If one already owns a licensed copy of a Microsoft Windows OS then install it in a virtual machine on top of Linux. Absolutely no compatibility problems there. (I have set up VMs on Linux for some of our clients to use XP, Vista and 7 to run some proprietary business software in cases where switching was not feasible due to proprietary lock-in. They've had not a bit of trouble with that solution.)

Buy in (Meaning Lock-in, see my avatar! :D) - I do recommend a clean break to get away from Microsoft and Apple. I personally abandoned, rather expensive, software I was using and had paid for when I decided to move to Linux and FreeBSD. Such as QuickBooks on Microsoft, Lotus SmartSuite on IBM OS/2 and a proprietary customer database on UnixWare. I did keep a multi-boot PC around for QuickBooks until I found Gnucash with the small business invoicing features, then I dumped QuickBooks. All told I probably abandoned over $1500 worth of proprietary software, including the operating systems themselves. UnixWare was not cheap and I still have the boxed sets sitting on a shelf by my desk. I can even provide a picture of those if you wish. ;)

Hardware - Uhm, imagine that, I wrote an article about this. :) I never have problems with unsupported hardware because I am not an impulse buyer. I only purchase hardware after I make sure it will work with Linux and / or FreeBSD. If one is an impulse buyer then one has more problems than just buying crappy hardware that has little to no support under / for Linux. Even so, pretty much any hardware that one can buy is likely to "just work" with a decent Linux distribution (meaning not Ubuntu). Only the latest, bleeding edge consumer stuff is likely to need some lead time to be supported. Nearly all the server hardware generally has Linux support immediately or within a few weeks of "hitting the shelves". In any case, if one wants a PC that is built for and guaranteed to work with Linux, I know a guy who can do that. ;)

Lack of local support - Maybe, but this depends on what you mean by "how do you get help". Help for what? If the PC is having a hardware problem then Linux is not in the equation. If one sticks with known-to-work-with-Linux hardware for buying new hardware then there will be no problem to get it working with Linux. If one sticks with software designed for Linux, again there will be no problem to get it working with Linux. Regardless, lack of local support can be true for any operating system in a small market, even the proprietary commercial ones. I know folks who are Linux users and live in some very small towns around me. One very knowledgeable fellow is from a town that has less than 5000 residents. He is just a phone call away from even smaller towns within a few miles of him. I would bet that in many cases the problem is not knowing there is someone nearby. Plus, any small computer shop owner that is worth giving business to should be familiar with Linux. It is a "free" system to download and install. Any PC shop owner who cannot take the time to learn how to support a "free" OS - is - a - loser. You should start a side business and include Linux support to compete with them. ;)

So, now you have my perspective on these "cons". I have absolutely non-geek end users running Linux based systems I built for them. One of them is in Alaska, about 3000 miles from me. They got a preloaded system with the software to do what they needed to do and - it - just - works. If they have a problem, I am just a phone call away. I am sure the same is true for other Linux shops, such as ZaReason, System 76, and so on.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by travists »

eracc wrote:[ Which Microsoft based applications (not games) are you needing for which there is not a FOSS alternative? Don't give me the tired old Adobe Photoshop argument unless you really do need that for something that cannot be done with The GIMP and its plug-ins.
Poser if you must know, and why not games? They are valid of a use as any. I personally have not run into any wine issues, but a family friend has a horrid time with UPS and USPS apps, I think it is the UPS printer that really balks, running under wine.

GIMP is great, Open Office is installed on every system my shop has to reinstall an OS on. I do like Linux, just not the hassle of the switch. Now, if we just can get a java based replacement for directX...

I'll rant on MS' hypocrisy later, time to go home.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by klauss »

My sister is a completely non-geek non-tech-savvy example that did the switch with a spotless record.

I switched all my computers from windows when I got tired of cleaning up the mess my family made of them. Windows is too easy to break. Setting up proper user/admin accounts and file permissions was a nightmare at the time (I heard it's heaps better in 7).

So I, unilaterally, put linux everywhere, and left the rotten windows rotten. People would say "Windows doesn't work, why don't you fix it?". And I would say "Because I have better things to do. You want windows, you fix it.".

My sister just started using linux. And it was back when it wasn't as stable as today. Sound was glitchy, unstable, it would fail sometimes, youtube didn't play sound when the moon was aligned with sirius... but she just moved on.

A few months after, only, she would be preaching to everybody else: "hey, just use linux, it just works, a lot better than windows.". I didn't tell her to say that. She just learned it by herself.

So... a reason for using linux and not windows? In the paraphrased words of my own sister, because in Linux, you spend your time doing what you sat on the computer to do. Not fighting with the operating system. Or protecting against viruses.

A reason to use windows? Maybe if you're a security expert. You know, to break it.

PS: I do know linux has pretty much the same vulnerabilities windows has. We linux guys are enjoying the low visibility of a low market share. I fear the day when linux is dominant...
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by eracc »

travists wrote:Poser if you must know, and why not games? ...
How very interesting, I am guessing you mean Poser by SmithMicro Software. I just noticed SmithMicro Software has some Linux based 2D animation creation / editing software. Why not use FOSS Blender and the other FOSS software that went into creating Big Buck Bunny for your 3D work? :)

Oh, I forgot to address the "games" question. I do not place games in the "need" category. Because if one wants to play a game that is only designed for a Microsoft OS, then use a Microsoft OS. Don't come wagging that PoC to Linux. We have our own games, thank you very much. ;) When a game developer makes a commercial game for Linux, I buy it if I want to play it. I bought both Quake 4 and Unreal Tournament 2004 because they had native Linux ports. If there is not a native Linux port, I could not care less if the game is the hottest on the market. I will not buy it or play it. My freedom is more important to me than some game.
Last edited by eracc on Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by eracc »

klauss wrote:...PS: I do know linux has pretty much the same vulnerabilities windows has. We linux guys are enjoying the low visibility of a low market share. I fear the day when linux is dominant...
Heh, good story klauss! Thumbs up to you and your sister. :)

I have covered "Linux vulnerability" several times in articles on my company tech blog. You can see the latest one here: Security: Linux, OS X, Unix and Malware (Viruses)
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by klauss »

eracc wrote:
klauss wrote:I have covered "Linux vulnerability" several times in articles on my company tech blog. You can see the latest one here: Security: Linux, OS X, Unix and Malware (Viruses)
Very good article. Just one point to make.

As part of a security training run at Core Security, I did compromise a fully patched OpenBSD instance once, which was running vulnerable software. The vulnerabilities targetted by attackers are not always known by software vendors, so keeping the system fully patched is not always enough.

Another anecdote on the funny side, at work we once lost a test server's root password. Everybody forgot, the server wasn't often used, and when once we rebooted it, there was no way to log in. Since it was providing services, we didn't want to pull up a rescue CD to recover root access... so we applied a privilege escalation trick that hadn't been patched.

Linux is vulnerable to all the stuff windows is, only it requires different techniques. Saying Linux can only be compromised with trojans is quite misleading.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by travists »

Funny, doing break fix (Windows does keep me employed :twisted:) I hear on occasion how "Macs don't get viruses". Silly people, At least Linux handles code such that it's harder to embed a virus in a picture. Big reason most viruses are for Windows is most computers run Windows so you have a much bigger target to hit.

Yes Poser is now owned by SmithMicro (previously by Curious Labs and earlier by Metacreations). I've used Blender, but don't care for the interface.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by Deus Siddis »

travists wrote: I've used Blender, but don't care for the interface.
They just overhauled the interface, you should give it another go.


I use windows for access to certain software tools not yet replaced by open source alternatives. And even after that I can see using it for its historical value; running older abandonware games from before the days when people made good games for linux.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by Blackbeard »

eracc wrote:Anyone: Why exactly do you think you need a freedom killing Microsoft OS or Apple system instead of a liberating FOSS system such as a Linux distribution or a *BSD? Serious answers only please. Hopefully this thread can shed some light on why and how you might be able to break the chains that bind you to closed, proprietary, freedom denying systems and software. :)
Well, apart from some games and some professional software for which there is no Linux/BSD equivalent, I cannot see any reason to need a MS or Apple system. Our family has been using various Linux OSs alongside Windows for years, and it's got to the point where though we actually have 7 Windows computers and only three main Linux computers (with another two "secondary"), the Linux computers get about 70-80% of the total use. :)

The largest problem has been to find a linux we can stick with. For the first few years, we ran Mandrake 9, and its descendants right up to Mandriva 2008, with only a few variations, like Red Hat, Debian, Ubuntu, etc., but after 2008, the quality of the Mandriva systems declined, and we now run two versions of Mepis, 8.5 and 11.0, Mageia 1, until recently Mandriva 2011.1, my Dad still runs Mandriva 2008 PowerPack, and my elder sister runs some version of Mandriva as well. :?

Latest in the line is Kanotix, which Dad has downloaded, but we haven't tried that properly yet. All in all, we've got quite a varied array of Linuxes, and while (to answer your question :) ) my own little netbook is a Win XP, I hardly ever use it, and not for anything I can't do on Linux. :)
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by Gungnir »

Just wanted to chime in on this:

I love Linux (and all UNIX, including OSX), and having used Win7 for a few days my love for *nix has grown even stronger.

The problem is compatibility; for instance, xNormal: no Wine support, and there's nothing else that does the same thing, FOSS or else (not that I've found, at least). Also, you have stuff like ASRock ATXU, Antec ChillControlV, and MSI AfterBurner; they are Windows only, no Wine, no FOSS alternatives. And the Linux version of CPUid frankly sucks compared to the Windows version (also no Wine). Also I sincerely doubt VMs world work for many of these since they interface directly with the BIOS (changing clocks and voltages and the like).

As I said, I love Linux and prefer it to any other OS, but personally I need to dual-boot to have a lot of the functionality that I use.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by klauss »

I've been thinking of adding xNormal-like abilities to mesher. We need them for those that can't run xNormal (ie: me).
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by travists »

Hey guys, All this Linux has me thinking I'll drop a copy on my usb stick again (8GB). The latest Puppy is being problematic with retaining settings, files, etc. What is a good, lightweight, GUI Linux that I can install to that drive and boot to when I want something different?

My main computer is an '06 Dell.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by eracc »

travists wrote:Hey guys, All this Linux has me thinking I'll drop a copy on my usb stick again (8GB). The latest Puppy is being problematic with retaining settings, files, etc. What is a good, lightweight, GUI Linux that I can install to that drive and boot to when I want something different?...
Hrm, maybe your USB stick is developing bad memory locations? Those things only have so many write cycles before they start going flaky. I just bought a 16 GB USB stick at Office Depot last month to replace a 4 GB stick that was showing write problems. The 16 GB only cost me about $17 as it was "on sale" to make room for new USB sticks.

As I do not run a Linux from a USB stick, I don't know the answer to your question about a Linux for USB sticks. I do not have a "bare metal" install of Microsoft for which I would need a USB stick to boot Linux. Instead of installing Microsoft "on the metal" here at the ERACC Home Office and Intergalactic Space Port, I run a Microsoft OS in a VM on top of Linux. I had a "free" license for XP Pro given to me by a client and installed that in VirtualBox just for support purposes for our Microsoft using clients. When I need a Linux "on the road" to boot a non-booting Microsoft box to recover data I just use a Live CD in combination with a USB stick.

Added: The Live CD is usually PartedMagic.
Last edited by eracc on Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by eracc »

Gungnir wrote:...The problem is compatibility; for instance, xNormal: no Wine support, and there's nothing else that does the same thing, FOSS or else (not that I've found, at least). ...
Hi Gungnir. You may find this thread on the eat3d.com forum interesting: http://eat3d.com/forum/questions-and-fe ... rmal-linux
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by travists »

eracc wrote:Hrm, maybe your USB stick is developing bad memory locations? Those things only have so many write cycles before they start going flaky. I just bought a 16 GB USB stick at Office Depot last month to replace a 4 GB stick that was showing write problems. The 16 GB only cost me about $17 as it was "on sale" to make room for new USB sticks.
Possible, but Puppy's latest incarnations is not even giving me the option to save, or set up a user settings space, or anything. BIG step backwards for what has been a solid lightweight destro. Well, if no one else has thoughts I'll go digging. Lots of options!
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by Gungnir »

eracc wrote:
Gungnir wrote:...The problem is compatibility; for instance, xNormal: no Wine support, and there's nothing else that does the same thing, FOSS or else (not that I've found, at least). ...
Hi Gungnir. You may find this thread on the eat3d.com forum interesting: http://eat3d.com/forum/questions-and-fe ... rmal-linux
Yeah, I saw that xNormal was going cross-platform on Wing Commander Junction a while ago; the problem is that it hasn't happened yet (that was like ~2009, the thread you linked is 2010)... Oh well, patience is key, I guess...
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by eracc »

Gungnir wrote:
eracc wrote:
Gungnir wrote:...The problem is compatibility; for instance, xNormal: no Wine support, and there's nothing else that does the same thing, FOSS or else (not that I've found, at least). ...
Hi Gungnir. You may find this thread on the eat3d.com forum interesting: http://eat3d.com/forum/questions-and-fe ... rmal-linux
Yeah, I saw that xNormal was going cross-platform on Wing Commander Junction a while ago; the problem is that it hasn't happened yet (that was like ~2009, the thread you linked is 2010)... Oh well, patience is key, I guess...
I went and asked about this on one of the developer's blogger blog. Got an answer too: CLICK MEEE!
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by klauss »

It's been like that for a few years already.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by eracc »

klauss wrote:It's been like that for a few years already.
Heh, yeah. Since they won't open source the code (Or haven't so far as I know.) I imagine a complete rewrite of the UI, as stated in his reply, is a large task for a few developers.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by klauss »

eracc wrote:
klauss wrote:It's been like that for a few years already.
Heh, yeah. Since they won't open source the code (Or haven't so far as I know.) I imagine a complete rewrite of the UI, as stated in his reply, is a large task for a few developers.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by eracc »

klauss wrote:
eracc wrote:
klauss wrote:It's been like that for a few years already.
Heh, yeah. Since they won't open source the code (Or haven't so far as I know.) I imagine a complete rewrite of the UI, as stated in his reply, is a large task for a few developers.
For one developer. Santy's the only one.
Then, yup, that is a big task for one guy.

Now I wonder why people would rely on software that has only one developer and is not open source. That just does not seem to be a good idea, no matter how good the software happens to be.
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travists
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by travists »

Color me amused. What was started with a prompt for reasons to stay with MS turned into six Linux lovers and one guy (me) that loves the idea, just has too much baggage to permanently switch. Is there anybody that cane come up with a defense for Windows? Sure, it's buggy and full of security holes, and uses nearly as many system resources as many games, and.....

Let's not forget their repeated attempts to sue Linux makers. MS was sued themselves for ripping off Apple, and fought that one off, so where do they get off suing others for using a GUI?


I was happy with DOS! Linux is just new command terms. If most of my hobbies where not based on Windows software I'd probably switch.
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Re: That Closed OS (any of them)

Post by travists »

Got Ubuntu 11.10 installed on my 8GB USB Stick! Don't know that I like the interface, but I have a new toy...
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