black holes and gravitons make no sense

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safemode
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black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by safemode »

Ok. Lets assume a couple things.
1. Black holes exist as singularities
2. Gravitons exist as particles/waves transmitting the gravitational force with a max speed of C.

So, you can't get any information about what is on the inside of an event horizon since photons and matter can't go out (hawking radiation aside).

But, if gravitons exist, then they do pass out of the event horizon, otherwise the black hole would have no gravity outside of the horizon. So, an object that crossed the event horizon would continue to emit gravitons and could theoretically exist for a short time before reaching the singularity. Since all of the gravity from the black hole comes from a single point, any gravitons exiting the event horizon off of that point would indicate mass that had fallen into the black hole. And if you had magically sensitive and precise equipment, you could measure minute changes in the gravity of the object relating to motion or changes in density of the mass, ie information.

So while the object would still be destined for destruction, information about it would be directly detectable via it's gravitons that still radiate out in all directions.

Second issue.

Singularities. I hate them. What exactly is a singularity ? I know the definition, but it can't be composed of matter or energy. Those require 3d space to exist and a singularity has only 1 dimension. How does it "grow"? How does it add density if density is infinite? More to the point, how does the matter that enters a singularity continue to contribute it's gravitons (still assuming they exist) ? How does graviton emission occur if a singularity can't be said to be matter or energy since it takes up no space and thus cannot be comprised of anything that exists physically in our 3 dimensional universe? Furthermore, how does gravity lose energy? Hawking radiation is said to reduce the mass of a blackhole (theoretically) thus causing it to evaporate but since a singularity is just 1 dimension, all that exists in our universe that is from the black hole is gravity, no mass, no energy that radiates from the singularity, only gravity radiates from it and escapes. So how do you retrieve this mass from the singularity in order for it to randomly escape via hawking radiation if the mass doesn't exist anymore?

Logically, a singularity doesn't grow. It's gravitational force increases or decreases but nothing else can observably change in a black hole but for gravitational force to change (grow or shrink) then the gravitons must be emitted from a given and quantifiable amount of source material but if we say that it comes from a singularity then that's not possible since a singularity can only have infinite or 0 density unless you introduce some strange attributes to gravity involving higher dimensions.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by Gungnir »

Hmm, interesting; I've never thought about it like that. As for the problem of mass, maybe black holes and white holes are like tunnels in time-space; mass and energy enter the black hole and exit the white? It would be weird, but it would explain that conundrum...
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by klauss »

safemode wrote:But, if gravitons exist, then they do pass out of the event horizon, otherwise the black hole would have no gravity outside of the horizon.
Gravitons are supposed (should they exist) to be massless. So, they're free to move about regardless of gravitational pull of nearby masses (hence, the event horizon doesn't apply to them).

In essence, all the limitations of massive objects (ie: the speed limit to c among them) don't apply to gravitons, which are (would be) massless.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by safemode »

indeed, so gravitons can transmit information beyond the event horizon of objects inside the event horizon. Also, it appears that the singularity can't possibly be a singularity if matter falling into it contributes a fixed and measurable (from outside of the black hole) amount of gravitons.

Ie: A singularity is a point in space but a point in space cannot emit a net positive amount of gravitons on it's own, so the mass falling into the black hole has to survive the singularity somehow in order to continue to emit their gravitons. Otherwise black holes could never grow.

The existence of a singularity emitting gravitons seems to require other dimensions and also seems to require that gravity as a force is unique in spanning the dimensions. It makes no sense to talk about the strength and size of a black hole otherwise, as a singularity cannot "vary" in density since it's a point. Also it has no physical body in which to emit gravitons (assuming they exist).


I think black holes exist. But i dont think a singularity does. I think something exotic is happening at the center inside the event horizon. I dont think it's a tunnel because that would have to behave differently.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by RedAdder »

See http://everything2.com/user/Highlander/ ... ng+gravity

Summary:
Just like electron "holes" can exist in a conductor, the opposite of the graviton(higgs boson) can exist.
It might even have mass, since it isn't emitted from the black hole, but absorbed very efficiently.

I also think that the black hole's event horizons grows more slowly because everything slows down at the event horizon, much like a node in a supercomputer might slow down and only do communication when connection density reaches a limit.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by safemode »

The only problem i see with the "push gravity" theory is that things like stars emit _crazy_ amounts of particles that increase in flux the closer you get to the star. Yet, gravity increases the closer you get to the star. I dont buy the theory at all.

In any case, I really dont buy that gravitons exist at all. The above is a demonstration on one of the paradoxes of the graviton. I think the idea of a graviton is like trying to explain a road as a roaditon to describe the path a car is taking when it travels from point A to point B.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by RedAdder »

Well, there is a well known phenomenon with ships that results in the same effect in 2D as pushing gravity in 3D:

When two ships are moored together, both ships will protect the other from waves from the inside, and the ships will move closer as a result.

While stars might emit pushing gravity causing particles, the number of pushing gravity causing particles is probably very high, and their interaction probability very low, resulting in the impression that the gravitational constant is a constant.

Experimental verification possibility: when a 3rd mass passes between two other masses, like in a solar eclipse, the gravity affecting a 4th body in between should be a tiny bit less.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by safemode »

lets assume there are these particles just all over the place (forgetting that the cosmic microwave energy is nearly 0 and so has pretty much no kinetic energy to give). The emission of such particles close to a star would be much higher than the background particle noise that gets absorbed by the star. So i dont see how gravity would work in this theory. It requires that these particles are everywhere and get absorbed but are emitted not by the bodies that we are concerned with (stars, planets, galaxies, black holes, people, satellites etc).

You might as well say that god is doing it.

Really i dont see how this theory is even remotely comparable to gravitons....which is a stretch to explain gravity as it is. I think plasma / electric universe has more plausibility than this pushing gravity theory.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by TBeholder »

safemode wrote:Ok. Lets assume a couple things.
1. Black holes exist as singularities
2. Gravitons exist as particles/waves transmitting the gravitational force with a max speed of C.
Cosmologisms aside, black holes are a (less than certain) product of models where gravity is the space curvature and gravitons by definition are a part of models where gravity is a proper field.
So they are hanging on incompatible axioms and thus trying to put them together indeed cannot make any sense.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by RedAdder »

safemode wrote:... So i dont see how gravity would work in this theory. It requires that these particles are everywhere and get absorbed but are emitted not by the bodies that we are concerned with (stars, planets, galaxies, black holes, people, satellites etc).

You might as well say that god is doing it.

Really i dont see how this theory is even remotely comparable to gravitons....which is a stretch to explain gravity as it is. I think plasma / electric universe has more plausibility than this pushing gravity theory.
Really and I thought God created the gravitons.. As I said, the number of these particles would be very high and they would not have been created by God, but in the big bang that created the universe, or at least this iteration, if you believe that the process repeats.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by safemode »

you either absorb or reflect. In either case energy is imparted and so if these particles in push gravity were created at the time of the big bang then they must be finite as no more have been produced since and every time they interact with matter and energy they are effectively taken out of the picture.

Also energy imparted by either reflecting or absorbing these particles should cause matter to heat up over time just by simply existing. Yet the natural tendency of the universe is to grow colder and more uniform. This theory would suggest the exact opposite, with everything associated with having gravity gaining a differential over their surrounding empty space rather than having an ever decreasing one.

And finally, While i made the initial comment with the assumption that gravitons exist, they are just as imaginary as these push gravity particles. Substituting one for the other with an even more convoluted means of functioning doesn't jive.
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by klauss »

safemode wrote:you either absorb or reflect. In either case energy is imparted and so if these particles in push gravity were created at the time of the big bang then they must be finite as no more have been produced since and every time they interact with matter and energy they are effectively taken out of the picture.
Why finite?

It would depend on whether the universe is finite or infinite, and cosmologists don't know that.

Furthermore, CMB was created in pretty much the same way, and CMB has been around for ages, and doesn't seem finite (though it could be finite, just a lot).
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Re: black holes and gravitons make no sense

Post by Turbo »

I hate singularities too.

When I got to Texas all my stuff was delivered and every box was accounted for and sealed, but I still haven't found my silverware. I think a singularity is responsible -- it's so small it could take the silverware without opening the box. :shock:
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