light units

prolog · Post by **prolog** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:18 pm

Small feature request:

If an object is more than 60 light seconds away, change the units to light minutes.

After 60 light minutes, change to light hours.

After 24 light hours, light days.

And so on.

Wouldn't take much to implement!

Stakhanov · Post by **Stakhanov** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:46 pm

What's the point ? If you are more than 60 lightseconds away from any object , it just means you are way out of the system

rigelan · Post by **rigelan** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:07 pm

Isn't jupiter 500 light seconds from the sun? (Except for the 1/4 scale change or whatever the ratio is) And the moon is 1.3 light seconds away.

Zeog · Post by **Zeog** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:17 pm

The light needs roughly 8 minutes from the sun to reach earth. So, earth is more than 60 light seconds away from sun (499 light seconds on average*) and is well inside the solar system!

* speed of light: c=299792458 m/s,
average distance sun-earth: d=149.6e9 m,
travelling time of light: t = d/c = 499 s = 8.31 min

Stakhanov · Post by **Stakhanov** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:05 pm

But I read somewhere that VS systems were not to scale. After all , how could there be ice planets a few lightseconds away from twin stars ?

geoscope · Post by **geoscope** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:47 pm

Redux:
Realism vs. Believabilty, Round 15

Believability wins by TKO, so the judges have ruled.

rigelan · Post by **rigelan** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:31 pm

*punch to the gut

rigelan · Post by **rigelan** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:32 pm

Yeah, its earth, not jupiter

. Didn't think to calculate it out.

I don't know, I'm relatively content with the lightseconds thing.

rigelan · Post by **rigelan** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:45 pm

On the same note: Why would you need to get so far away from a planet or star in this game? Most of the items are pretty close. And even in the sol system, the planets are all lines up in order, so nothing is more than 1000 light seconds away. (At least it was last time I visited).

I guess if you constantly measured distance while traveling to the next star system, I could see it. But in that case, 1000 light seconds rougly translates to 0.00003 light years, and I could see that transition being made instead of light-minutes or light-hours or light-days.

prolog · Post by **prolog** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:22 pm

My hope is that eventually, things might be to scale, in which case this could be quite useful.

geoscope · Post by **geoscope** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:59 pm

If things were to scale, I'd "feel" a lot smaller approaching a mining base in a Llama, than I do in a Mule, and it would take longer to enter the gravity well of a planet and autodock than it does to do the same at the aforementioned mining base.

If things were to scale, I would not be able to fly within 435 km of one oceanic world to dock, while at another I need to get within 12,000 meters... anything that small would not have an atmosphere let alone standing oceans, and would rightfully be classified as an asteroid or comet.

Post by **jackS** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:19 am

System scale is among the set of things slated for being changed (especially because it's an easy one to play around with).

I don't immediatelty see the origins of your view of the following, however:

geoscope wrote:If things were to scale, I'd "feel" a lot smaller approaching a mining base in a Llama, than I do in a Mule

namely, which of the potential relationships currently feel inaptly scaled, and why do you believe them to be so?

rigelan · Post by **rigelan** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:21 am

You know, I've often wondered (This might be a bit off-topic), how does the game calculate gravitational force & distance away from an object (spec distance is the only thing it affects, I think.)

Do you enter a mass, and a diameter of the planet, or have to calculate the gravitational force yourself? Or do you enter a volume and a density? Or at least point me to the file that calculates it so I can look for myself

Sunfire · Post by **Sunfire** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:41 am

i think what prolog is suggesting is a basic human need.

a yardstick that one can relate to.

quick! whats the difference between 1,435,647,108 ft and 1,435,697,108 ft?

why do we have the metric system broken into 100s or 1000s ? because any number bigger than that becomes hard for the brain to handle or relate to... anyone familiar with the metric system can tell you about how long 2 cm is... or about how far away 1km is... but how far away is 1,000,002 cm? how long is .00002 km?

the point is, its really hard to relate to .00002 km if youre thinking kilometers... you have to do the conversion in your head if you want to have a handle on how big it is...

granted, space is a really hard thing for the human mind to grasp... and the velocities and distances represented in the game are by default hard for humans to understand... yardsticks help you keep your place... thats why most space sims gloss over how far or fast youre really going... 50 is creeping... 1000 is really fast... (or in hitchhikerspeak R17 is way, way faster than you should be going...

)

and obviously, in space you have no yardsticks... is that base really small or is really far away? you dont have any mountains or trees around it to let you know...

geoscope · Post by **geoscope** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:54 am

@jacks
I'm not really sure if it's only a matter of perspective... but when near a base, the scale of the base to the ship I flying "feels" the same, regardless of the ship.. I suppose if I used an external view I'd see a difference... but from the cockpit, it just seems a hyena ought to feel dwarfed by the base, after all it's big enough to hold dozens of ships and an entire operational facility. If I had to narrow it down, I'd say that I'm too aware of the fact that the scale between "me" and the base is the same... I don't know if that makes sense... and I'm sure that it's actually a perceptual effect.. in reality, I ought to feel the relationship of base size to myself is the same -- neither change... only the reationship of ship size to base size does.

Oblivion · Post by **Oblivion** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:28 am

I know how you feel. It's VERY difficult to get a sense of size in VS. aside from the misleading cockpit sizes there is the unfriendly camera man. You knwo the one who follows you taking publicity shots. lol

I've noticed that it doesn't even swerve with the shape. The ship looks static, like it's a gun in a counter strike game. Can't the camera overshoot on the sides a bit? i mean when turning right, you should see a bit of the right side of the ship.

And one more thing... can we have a decent hud please even while in 3rd person view. I liek to see my ship, and it's annoying to have to switch between cockpit views to see wjere I'm going.

Zeog · Post by **Zeog** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:38 pm

I agree that light minutes etc. are currently not of big use since systems are shrinked and even max spec is pretty limited.

However, I implemented those distances and committed it.

You'll now see:
--meters up to distances of 20000 m
--kilometers up to distances of 299792.458 km (with decimals for <100km, without decimals >100km)
--light seconds up to distances of 120 light seconds
--light minutes up to distances of 120 light minutes
--light hours up to distances of 48 light hours
--light days up to distances of 365 light days
and for larger distances lightyears

I tested it up to light hours. It takes a while though.

geoscope · Post by **geoscope** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:40 pm

I should think so.

Stakhanov · Post by **Stakhanov** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:22 am

Well I thought that scale wasn't a problem in Vega Strike... but actually it can have unexpected consequences :

Oblivion · Post by **Oblivion** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:47 am

@Zeog:

However, I implemented those distances and committed it.

Wouldn't that be too confusing?

or does it mean that with those measurements committed, we can switch between any of them just by changing the config?

@Stakhanov:

Ga! Hey why don't we have a thread where we get to display the most amazing things (or bugs

) on Vega Strike caught with the I. This looks like one of em. Those planets should already have smacked each other flat.

Stakhanov · Post by **Stakhanov** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:00 am

Maybe... I took some funny shots recently.

The problem is that (besides the official screenshot thread) there is no forum to post them or random VS stuff. A pity considering how many subforums there are

Oblivion · Post by **Oblivion** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:12 am

have it on artworks thread. New Topic as ... um. Vega Strike Outs. or something.

I could use a screenie of a hoffman's blob. If it exists ingame, that is..

You can upload your pictures to photobucket or to some other free photo hosting sites. It would be cool.

Stakhanov · Post by **Stakhanov** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:41 am

Problem is , screenshots are sometimes too heavy for imageshack. And the zip limit here isn't any higher.

Nicest shot so far :

Oblivion · Post by **Oblivion** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:10 am

Do I detect a UFO out there?

It was hefty alright. Scale ti down to 640x480, then save it as jpegs. Then we're in business. The Vega Strike UFO Chronicles.

Zeog · Post by **Zeog** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:52 am

Oblivion wrote:@Zeog:
However, I implemented those distances and committed it.
Wouldn't that be too confusing? or does it mean that with those measurements committed, we can switch between any of them just by changing the config?

No, you cannot change them with a config file yet. They are hard coded in the source. The point where it switches to the next unit is hardcoded as well.
I don't see why it would be confusing, tough. It's acutally quite convenient. As distances to objects get larger the display now changes to the next unit of measurement if numerical values are high enough. This aides readability and prevents too large numerical values.
Quick, which one is better to read? "18 light seconds" or "5396256 kilometers"?

So, you will see distances as this (with this very notation, number of decimals and unit names)
0 meters to 20000 meters
20.00 kilometers to 100.00 kilometers
100 kilometers to 299792 kilometers
1.00 light seconds to 120.00 light seconds
2.00 light minutes to 120.00 light minutes
2.00 light hours to 48.00 light hours
2.00 light days to 365.00 light days
for larger distances lightyears are used