Cargo missions would make loads more sense if the contents were related to the planet type (e.g. export mainly fish from oceans, ore from mines, etc). It just seems absurd to haul liquor from a refinery to a biodiverse (then buy it right back for the round trip).
If you need an example, take a look at Oolite. After finding a destination, it compares the two economies and picks goods that are cheap/plentiful here and rare/expensive there.
Make missions make sense
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Wisq
- ISO Party Member
- Posts: 453
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:21 am
Frankly, I think if you're hired to deliver cargo, it should be assumed that either there's a known buyer who will take the stuff off your hands (and he can't get it locally), or it's stuff being delivered to a base that desperately needs it. Either way, if I deliver cargo to a base as part of a mission, it should "disappear" rather than be added to the list of items for sale. Also, there should be no identical cargo for sale -- my buyer would have presumably already purchased stuff locally if he could.
To achieve this, one can either pick the target planet type based on the cargo type -- i.e. if delivering coffee, select a planet that doesn't sell any -- or one can remove that cargo type from the planet's cargo list -- e.g. if delivering coffee to an oceanic world, remove all coffee, thus simulating a coffee shortage.
Random dreaming:
Down the road, I think a general economic model would be the best solution. Define what a particular base produces and how fast it does so, what the base needs and how fast it consumes that, how critical certain things are for survival, etc. Then just let the players and other simulated ships be the supply lines. Price would be entirely dependent on stockpiles, rarity, production/consumption speed, criticality, etc.
Creating production lines -- e.g. tying the supply of raw minerals to the production of refined metals or fuels at a refinery -- could add additional incentive to keep bases well-stocked.
Cargo missions would then simply be the extreme version of normal trade. Targets with a scarcity -- say, of a prized luxury item, or an important survival item, or something that is holding up production -- would put out bounties for that product, and keep those bounties posted until they stockpile enough that the item is no longer in high demand. Perhaps other bases with low prices on the item in question can post addendums to the bounty, stating their price and how far they are from the target -- basically ad placements for the benefit of merchants. Players and AI can race to get the item to the target, with the earliest deliveries getting top dollar -- and perhaps garnering some reputation with that colony.
Having a high reputation with a colony could grant certain benefits. Reduced prices on certain items, perhaps, especially ship parts. And if your rep is high enough, then perhaps you can get exclusive trade deals. So when a colony is running out of something, instead of posting a public bounty, the colony contacts you directly and asks if you'd like an exclusive contract. You've got a certain negotiable amount of time to get a certain negotiable quantity of the item to them for a fixed price, with price depending on the time and quantity figures you agree to. (If you decline, or can't agree to supply them with the full quantity they need, the remainder becomes a public bounty.)
Some contracts would have fixed deadlines (critical life support, say), while some would have full-price deadlines and then late penalties. Some would have early-delivery bonuses (e.g. minerals at a refinery -- can start producing earlier) while others wouldn't. Read the fine print, because failing to meet an agreed-upon contract means a loss in reputation, and your contract becomes a public bounty. (If you're a bit late and you fulfil that public bounty, maybe you don't lose so much reputation.)
Reputation would also presumably decline over time, slowly at first, but at an increasing rate the longer you fail to show your face at that colony again.
Another possible merchant feature (perhaps only available above a certain reputation) is the ability to sign up to be notified when a certain colony is running out of a certain product, before it becomes a public bounty. This is useful for big cargo haulers who carry a lot of stuff and want to sell high, or merchants that specialise in a certain product and want to know who needs it when, or if you want a certain colony to thrive and continue to produce things that are important to you, or if you just want to boost your rep with a certain (group of) colony(s).
The concept of reputation is something that could potentially be ignored by today's roaming-style merchant, but that adds a certain personality to the game for those who choose to use it. You can develop "home systems", areas where you are generally liked as a merchant, are given good deals on parts and maintenance, where the local cops perhaps put more effort into attacking pirates that attack you, etc.
Speaking of cops, you could probably gain reputation for combat acts, too. Defending merchant vessels from attack and generally keeping a system clean would grant you similar benefits, including perhaps exclusive contracts (see above) on certain combat missions, again with contract price depending on how much you agree to do in what kind of time frame.
I know I'm just dreaming here, and we're probably a long way from anything like the above. Still, I thought I'd put out some ideas that might make commerce (and combat) more interesting down the road.
To achieve this, one can either pick the target planet type based on the cargo type -- i.e. if delivering coffee, select a planet that doesn't sell any -- or one can remove that cargo type from the planet's cargo list -- e.g. if delivering coffee to an oceanic world, remove all coffee, thus simulating a coffee shortage.
Random dreaming:
Down the road, I think a general economic model would be the best solution. Define what a particular base produces and how fast it does so, what the base needs and how fast it consumes that, how critical certain things are for survival, etc. Then just let the players and other simulated ships be the supply lines. Price would be entirely dependent on stockpiles, rarity, production/consumption speed, criticality, etc.
Creating production lines -- e.g. tying the supply of raw minerals to the production of refined metals or fuels at a refinery -- could add additional incentive to keep bases well-stocked.
Cargo missions would then simply be the extreme version of normal trade. Targets with a scarcity -- say, of a prized luxury item, or an important survival item, or something that is holding up production -- would put out bounties for that product, and keep those bounties posted until they stockpile enough that the item is no longer in high demand. Perhaps other bases with low prices on the item in question can post addendums to the bounty, stating their price and how far they are from the target -- basically ad placements for the benefit of merchants. Players and AI can race to get the item to the target, with the earliest deliveries getting top dollar -- and perhaps garnering some reputation with that colony.
Having a high reputation with a colony could grant certain benefits. Reduced prices on certain items, perhaps, especially ship parts. And if your rep is high enough, then perhaps you can get exclusive trade deals. So when a colony is running out of something, instead of posting a public bounty, the colony contacts you directly and asks if you'd like an exclusive contract. You've got a certain negotiable amount of time to get a certain negotiable quantity of the item to them for a fixed price, with price depending on the time and quantity figures you agree to. (If you decline, or can't agree to supply them with the full quantity they need, the remainder becomes a public bounty.)
Some contracts would have fixed deadlines (critical life support, say), while some would have full-price deadlines and then late penalties. Some would have early-delivery bonuses (e.g. minerals at a refinery -- can start producing earlier) while others wouldn't. Read the fine print, because failing to meet an agreed-upon contract means a loss in reputation, and your contract becomes a public bounty. (If you're a bit late and you fulfil that public bounty, maybe you don't lose so much reputation.)
Reputation would also presumably decline over time, slowly at first, but at an increasing rate the longer you fail to show your face at that colony again.
Another possible merchant feature (perhaps only available above a certain reputation) is the ability to sign up to be notified when a certain colony is running out of a certain product, before it becomes a public bounty. This is useful for big cargo haulers who carry a lot of stuff and want to sell high, or merchants that specialise in a certain product and want to know who needs it when, or if you want a certain colony to thrive and continue to produce things that are important to you, or if you just want to boost your rep with a certain (group of) colony(s).
The concept of reputation is something that could potentially be ignored by today's roaming-style merchant, but that adds a certain personality to the game for those who choose to use it. You can develop "home systems", areas where you are generally liked as a merchant, are given good deals on parts and maintenance, where the local cops perhaps put more effort into attacking pirates that attack you, etc.
Speaking of cops, you could probably gain reputation for combat acts, too. Defending merchant vessels from attack and generally keeping a system clean would grant you similar benefits, including perhaps exclusive contracts (see above) on certain combat missions, again with contract price depending on how much you agree to do in what kind of time frame.
I know I'm just dreaming here, and we're probably a long way from anything like the above. Still, I thought I'd put out some ideas that might make commerce (and combat) more interesting down the road.
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Lord Q'Daan
- Trader
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:05 am
- Contact:
I think you're forgetting unique goods. For example, there might be lots of liquor available on your agriculteral world, but not your favorate brand from that one out-of-the-way moon. A factory needing parts sounds silly if you assume it can make that part itself, but that just isn't always true. Heck, subcontracting certain elements of a design is quite common. These would be the primary reason for cargo missions to exist.
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Wisq
- ISO Party Member
- Posts: 453
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:21 am
Yeah, I considered that as well, but figured I'd put down enough dreamy stuff already. 
Specifically, I could see regional goods, like that special drink I think I've seen on the VS splash screens.
Of course, you'd still need to be satisfying a demand. If I take a precious wine to a backwater planet where a fine drink is one that doesn't make you go blind, I can sell my stuff for the going off-world fine alcohol rate, but I probably won't get top dollar, because these people don't truly appreciate what I have to offer. Conversely, a world of aristocrats far from the source of my precious wine will pay me a small fortune to get their hands on it... provided other merchants don't get there first.
Another possibility (still a pipe dream) is perhaps seasonal goods and quality of goods. Naturally-grown bananas are probably cheaper than hydroponically-grown ones, but are only available when that planet is in the growing season, and I'd better get them to the target pretty fast if I want a good price. Nobody's going to buy the weeks-old ones sitting in my hold, and after a couple of months, I doubt anyone would even recognise them as bananas.
That brings up another interesting point... tying the merchanting system to the crew system (when we get one). Aside from paying these people to work, you also have to keep them alive, and that means food. There could be a (cheap) line item in the budget for supplying your crew with basic mass-produced space food (so they don't starve), but that doesn't have to be their only sustenance.
Maybe I pick up some coffee and reallocate one unit from cargo to crew food stores. Up goes productivity and morale. I could get a similar morale boost by allocating one unit of bananas, too, but it wouldn't last as long, because (as per above) the quality of the bananas decreases quickly over time. Buying them quality meat would be a better option, since (I assume) it comes frozen and would last longer. I could see alcohol boosting morale while reducing productivity (proficiency?) just a bit... but if morale is low, the benefit of happier crew could be worth it.
(Presumably, buying them food would reduce the cost of the "crew food" line item, since you're replacing some of their generic food with the real stuff. Of course, it would still cost less overall to let the game feed them.)
It would certainly add some character to the crew concept... especially when you run across a broken-down old tug, with barely enough money for fuel, being flown around by a perpetually drunk crew.
Specifically, I could see regional goods, like that special drink I think I've seen on the VS splash screens.Of course, you'd still need to be satisfying a demand. If I take a precious wine to a backwater planet where a fine drink is one that doesn't make you go blind, I can sell my stuff for the going off-world fine alcohol rate, but I probably won't get top dollar, because these people don't truly appreciate what I have to offer. Conversely, a world of aristocrats far from the source of my precious wine will pay me a small fortune to get their hands on it... provided other merchants don't get there first.
Another possibility (still a pipe dream) is perhaps seasonal goods and quality of goods. Naturally-grown bananas are probably cheaper than hydroponically-grown ones, but are only available when that planet is in the growing season, and I'd better get them to the target pretty fast if I want a good price. Nobody's going to buy the weeks-old ones sitting in my hold, and after a couple of months, I doubt anyone would even recognise them as bananas.
That brings up another interesting point... tying the merchanting system to the crew system (when we get one). Aside from paying these people to work, you also have to keep them alive, and that means food. There could be a (cheap) line item in the budget for supplying your crew with basic mass-produced space food (so they don't starve), but that doesn't have to be their only sustenance.
Maybe I pick up some coffee and reallocate one unit from cargo to crew food stores. Up goes productivity and morale. I could get a similar morale boost by allocating one unit of bananas, too, but it wouldn't last as long, because (as per above) the quality of the bananas decreases quickly over time. Buying them quality meat would be a better option, since (I assume) it comes frozen and would last longer. I could see alcohol boosting morale while reducing productivity (proficiency?) just a bit... but if morale is low, the benefit of happier crew could be worth it.
(Presumably, buying them food would reduce the cost of the "crew food" line item, since you're replacing some of their generic food with the real stuff. Of course, it would still cost less overall to let the game feed them.)
It would certainly add some character to the crew concept... especially when you run across a broken-down old tug, with barely enough money for fuel, being flown around by a perpetually drunk crew.
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Oblivion
- Artisan Extraordinaire
- Posts: 1269
- Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:55 am
- Location: Philippines
...and get stopped by a homeland security patrol. asked to take the breathalyzer and then jailed for drunk piloting. 
Very nice ideas. Hope those could be coded by someone soon.
A Step Into Oblivion
Dreams of things that will never be,
Songs of thoughts only I can hear,
Leave me be to sleep forever,
To dream my dreams,
And sing my hymns,
Of things that will never be...
Dreams of things that will never be,
Songs of thoughts only I can hear,
Leave me be to sleep forever,
To dream my dreams,
And sing my hymns,
Of things that will never be...
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Jimmy Hendrix
- Explorer
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 11:58 pm
Its been glossed over but not specifically dealt with... the problem of time and cost.
Typically, you can get something shipped fast for a high cost or slow for much cheaper, but usually not both. But lets say we invented the transporter device and can instantly ship anything to anywhere in the world. You'd suddenly get huge investment in transporter technology and the transportation of goods would quickly convert from physical transport to atomic transport. Economy of scales would quickly make this novel technology pretty cheap for even everyday people to use. (unless there were some very rare fuel it needed to make it work).
As far as space ship engine technology is concerned, as long as the fuel isnt rare, and if in game transit time is relatively quick, then transportation of all kinds of goods is always going to be cheap and its gonna be like the freight industry... margins are not gonna be that great unless you're running contraband.
In my opinion, if you really want a sophisticated space freighter simulation, then fuel costs need to be cheap and space travel times need to be ALOT slower than Star Trek and Star Wars. If fuel costs are high, then its just as others have said... nobody is going to be able to afford the goods your bringing except the filthy rich or governments that need something they can't otherwise get.
If hyperdrives exist, only big capital ships shoudl have them (this is on aspect of Battlestar Galactica i dont like.. that the entire fleet can always just jump away so quickly... and this implies that the cost of jumping must be very cheap.)
Also, i think the idea of freighting would be saner within a single system. Say there's a mining operation in an asteroid belt within the system and from there, ores of various types are shipped to colonies on planets and moons and stations within the system. No hyperdrives whatsoever are needed. Also cargo ships should be HUGE bohemoths... or like a container ship where maybe the ship is just a giant platform for carrying containers and a propulsion system... and when empty its mass is relatively low. But if you want to make transporting of goods affordable, you've got be able to deliver huge amounts.
Privateer series always seemed hokey that you'd buy a so called freighter that could only carry a hundred tons of cargo. Are you kidding me? A multi rotar army helicopter can carry that much... and it has to deal with gravity.
</end rant>
Typically, you can get something shipped fast for a high cost or slow for much cheaper, but usually not both. But lets say we invented the transporter device and can instantly ship anything to anywhere in the world. You'd suddenly get huge investment in transporter technology and the transportation of goods would quickly convert from physical transport to atomic transport. Economy of scales would quickly make this novel technology pretty cheap for even everyday people to use. (unless there were some very rare fuel it needed to make it work).
As far as space ship engine technology is concerned, as long as the fuel isnt rare, and if in game transit time is relatively quick, then transportation of all kinds of goods is always going to be cheap and its gonna be like the freight industry... margins are not gonna be that great unless you're running contraband.
In my opinion, if you really want a sophisticated space freighter simulation, then fuel costs need to be cheap and space travel times need to be ALOT slower than Star Trek and Star Wars. If fuel costs are high, then its just as others have said... nobody is going to be able to afford the goods your bringing except the filthy rich or governments that need something they can't otherwise get.
If hyperdrives exist, only big capital ships shoudl have them (this is on aspect of Battlestar Galactica i dont like.. that the entire fleet can always just jump away so quickly... and this implies that the cost of jumping must be very cheap.)
Also, i think the idea of freighting would be saner within a single system. Say there's a mining operation in an asteroid belt within the system and from there, ores of various types are shipped to colonies on planets and moons and stations within the system. No hyperdrives whatsoever are needed. Also cargo ships should be HUGE bohemoths... or like a container ship where maybe the ship is just a giant platform for carrying containers and a propulsion system... and when empty its mass is relatively low. But if you want to make transporting of goods affordable, you've got be able to deliver huge amounts.
Privateer series always seemed hokey that you'd buy a so called freighter that could only carry a hundred tons of cargo. Are you kidding me? A multi rotar army helicopter can carry that much... and it has to deal with gravity.
</end rant>
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lee
- Confed Special Operative
- Posts: 322
- Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:17 pm
Does anyone know any game that actually has an economic simulation to the full extend? I think it would be something unique to VS, and I always vote for it.
Would it be any helpful if we could come up with a working model that someone could code then?
There have been many ideas and suggestions to economy ...
Would it be any helpful if we could come up with a working model that someone could code then?
There have been many ideas and suggestions to economy ...
Debian testing
NVIDIA-Linux-x86-173.08-pkg1.run
NVIDIA-Linux-x86-173.08-pkg1.run
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loki1950
- The Shepherd
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loki1950
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loki1950
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dandandaman
- Artisan
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If the model was clear and thorough and simple to implement, then yes (even then, don't count on it happening quickly ... time is a scarcitylee wrote:Would it be any helpful if we could come up with a working model that someone could code then?
). If you want to have a look at it, then great, if not then no big loss ... it'll get improved eventually anyway 
Dan
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
-- Pablo Picasso
-- Pablo Picasso
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test3244
- Explorer
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- Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 5:08 pm
more random dreaming:
cargo ships should not be giganticly huge to a point where it looks like your flying a building or something like that.
cargo ships should be a bit larger starfighters and hold a ton of cargo.. i mean more than what a military helicoptor can hold. think of them as space trucks.. anything cargo ship that can fit inside a docking bay I would be very happy with.
but to make things more fun and less stressful and boring, even the heaviest commodite in side a cargo's hold should effect a ship by little by modeling mass in the newton phsyics flight.
don't forget that cargo ships should have side turrets and should also have a turret view fiew like freelancer so your guns are pointing at the crosshair cursor so they can defend themselves.
cargo ships should not be giganticly huge to a point where it looks like your flying a building or something like that.
cargo ships should be a bit larger starfighters and hold a ton of cargo.. i mean more than what a military helicoptor can hold. think of them as space trucks.. anything cargo ship that can fit inside a docking bay I would be very happy with.
but to make things more fun and less stressful and boring, even the heaviest commodite in side a cargo's hold should effect a ship by little by modeling mass in the newton phsyics flight.
don't forget that cargo ships should have side turrets and should also have a turret view fiew like freelancer so your guns are pointing at the crosshair cursor so they can defend themselves.
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Stakhanov
- Merchant
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:48 am
I disagree , it feels great to dock onto those isometal monsters , basically flying trade stations.
I still can't believe I earned 40k credits on a cargo mission across 5 systems , just to deliver... 20 jade units. I swear , those could have been bought in the destination system for 1k credits at most !
It is logical to have higher rewards for crossing more systems ; but as a merchant I would never pay 50 times the cost of my cargo to a privateer to have it delivered... that's the problem with indiscriminate randomness.
I still can't believe I earned 40k credits on a cargo mission across 5 systems , just to deliver... 20 jade units. I swear , those could have been bought in the destination system for 1k credits at most !
It is logical to have higher rewards for crossing more systems ; but as a merchant I would never pay 50 times the cost of my cargo to a privateer to have it delivered... that's the problem with indiscriminate randomness.
