Ship Sizes/Classification

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Hicks
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Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by Hicks »

Been a lot of discussion in various threads about ship sizes so i thought i would create a thread for it.

My views:
Military
Fighters
-Light: Less then 15 tons (about the size of a fighter jet). Mainly used as scouts.
-Medium: Between 15 and 40 tons. Most common.
-Large: Over 40 tons. Fighters over 60 tons are uncommon to lack of manoeuvrability

Bomber
Light: 30 to 50 tons. Armed with Missiles/small torpedeos, used to engage heavy fighters, corvettes and destroyers, as well as civillian craft.
Heavy:50 to 80 tons. Normally equipped with torpedos and used to engage capital ships.

Corvette
500 to 1,500 tons Smallest military ship that requires a crew
Has turret mounted weapons

Destroyer
3,000 tons, small/medium turrets, low shielding and armour

Cruiser
10,000 tons, Medium turrets, average shielding and armour

Battle Crusier
30,000 tons Mounts large turreted guns, but with little armour, average shielding

Battleship
50,000 tons, mounts large turret guns, heavy armour and shielding

Carrier
-Standard carrier - 50,000 tons small/medium turrets, little armour.Provideds a mobile base for a large number of fighters/bombers.
-SuperCarrier 80,000 tons small/medium turrets, little armour. Carries fighters/bombers and a few corvettes

Civillain
Most civillian ships have little/no weapons, little shielding and armour

Cargo - Most cargo ships carry about their mass in cargo
-Small 100 tons to 500 tons
-Medium 500 tons to 5,000 tons
-Large 5,000 to 50,000 tons

Transporter
50 to 500 tons, used to transport people around the universe

Shuttle
10 ton to 60 ton
Personal Shuttle: used for the transport of a small number of persons ranges from basic transportation to a small yacht.
Cargo Shuttle: used to transport goods from large non-atmospheric craft to a planets surface or from a larger vessel to a facility that lacks the proper docking facilities for a ship that size.

Utiltiy
Normally other ships refitted to do a specific task
Last edited by Hicks on Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by TBeholder »

A simple clasification implies that factions wildly different in mentality, strategical doctrines and industrial capabilities (plus barely understandable aliens) could and would all see it in the same way.
While in RealLife™ we observe anything like this only in the situation "one leads, another follows".

Currently, what VS calls Interceptor/Fighter/Bomber/... are AI roles - how the ship is supposed to choose and interact with targets. No less, but no more.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by travists »

TBeholder: nearly half the factions are of human origin and thus share the same historical context. Further, think of it more as NATO classification. Each faction would prefer some designs over others and so have more of them, but most ships would fall into one of those (or a slightly expanded list) classes.

Hicks:
Hicks wrote:Corvette
500 to 1,500 tons Smallest military ship that requires a crew
Has turret mounted weapons
What do you define as crew? Heavy(large) fighters would likely have turrets as would bombers to make up for lack of maneuverability. They may also have a co-pilot/weapons officer.
Hicks wrote:Carrier
-Standard carrier - 50,000 tons small/medium turrets, little armour. Carries fighters/bombers for protection.
Smaller craft have a small flight deck and fighter compliment for protection. Carrier implies that the flightgroup is the main offensive capability.

Are there no military transports?
Hicks wrote:Civillain
Most civillian ships have little/no weapons, little sheilding and armour
It is a hostile galaxy, even civilians need to defend themselves. During the "Great Age of Sail" merchant (civilian) vessels where often heavily armed. It also would seem likely that there would be a fairly large mercenary (technically still civilian) population needing ships.
Hicks wrote:Cargo - Most cargo ships carry about their mass in cargo
-Small 100 tons to 500 tons
-Medium 500 tons to 5,000 tons
-Large 5,000 to 50,000 tons

Transporter
50 to 500 tons, used to transport people around the universe
There is little difference in design between inanimate cargo and people transport, asside from how the inside is equipped.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by TBeholder »

I see it as deeply rooted in the very premise.
travists wrote:TBeholder: nearly half the factions are of human origin and thus share the same historical context.
Even well-organized factions range from Andolian to Purists to Merchant Guild. They have different view of the situation and different immediate needs. Less-organized are Shaper superhuman mad artists and LIHW flea market - by their nature neither feels a great need to look at standards and conventions too hard but pursue inspiration and momentary needs respectively.
travists wrote: Further, think of it more as NATO classification.
I already mentioned this. NATO and Warsaw Pact were only two centers with followers stuck on - and constantly looking at each other at that.
When there are several independent factions developing something new... remember what was spawned from late XIX to WWII?
A dozen different quests to the perfect battleship, pole mine boats, first minelayers, semi-submarines, torpedo boats with tracks, fast tanks, siege tanks, anti-trench tanks, lego tanks, superheavy tanks, big bombers, dive bombers, cheap ground assault planes, heavy ground assault planes - just about everything physicaly possible was at least tried, and only a few concepts were useless, most had their time and place, if not a chance to grow.
Now, the current age in VS is not the first exploration/expansion, so the worst madhouse ended. Then hard testing in Fraternal War, usually it means removal of the most outlandish ideas, development of new ones, then either getting ready to the past war or trying to subvert its ways.
Aera suddenly give the reason and target to adapt for, so this should restart the search - until one forced to stop because they simply can't afford it, being up to the ears in thewar and forced to fall back to thinking only about cheap and efficient minimum set, it means everyone involved churns out a new generation of concepts meant to patch one's weakness or "outflank" the enemy.
Dealing with aliens, which is asymmetrical across the factions...
travists wrote: Each faction would prefer some designs over others and so have more of them, but most ships would fall into one of those (or a slightly expanded list) classes.
Most of them doesn't choose, but develop their own. Then they got to look at what others did, adapt for that and repeat...
There should be a few emerging optimums, of course. But due to feedback, these aren't likely to be stable: even starting with two basic niches you adapt to the target, target adapts to you, and these local optimums "dry up" until one side loses efficiency enough to warrant jumping into some other concept.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by Hicks »

Well i think that we need to set some classes with names people recongnise to make it easier for players to work out what ships are supposed to be what, and can compare similar ships. I would like to be able to dock at a station, and compare 2 or 3 similar ships from a specific catergory, whether i want a medium fighter, or a large battleship. At the moment, the stats for the ships and costs are all over the place and its hard to work out what each ships role is.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by travists »

TBeholder wrote:
travists wrote: Each faction would prefer some designs over others and so have more of them, but most ships would fall into one of those (or a slightly expanded list) classes.
Most of them doesn't choose, but develop their own. Then they got to look at what others did, adapt for that and repeat...
There should be a few emerging optimums, of course. But due to feedback, these aren't likely to be stable: even starting with two basic niches you adapt to the target, target adapts to you, and these local optimums "dry up" until one side loses efficiency enough to warrant jumping into some other concept.
Poor choice of words, they would develop craft that by nature would be more or less likely to be assigned a certain class designation. Class is a fusion of designed role, mass, and armament. At least to me. So, any lightweight lightly armed, single or double seated craft that is primarily suited for scout or interceptor work would be a "light fighter" regardless of origin or how the manufacturer names it.
Hicks' reasoning for classes is sound. Class describes the ships; ships should not be designed around classes.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by TBeholder »

travists wrote:Poor choice of words, they would develop craft that by nature would be more or less likely to be assigned a certain class designation. Class is a fusion of designed role, mass, and armament. At least to me. So, any lightweight lightly armed, single or double seated craft that is primarily suited for scout or interceptor work would be a "light fighter" regardless of origin or how the manufacturer names it.
Hicks' reasoning for classes is sound. Class describes the ships; ships should not be designed around classes.
The objectives and approach to reaching them defines the design, yes.
But the set of possible roles itself is determined by the faction's needs (doctrine, current problems, etc) and capabilities, and those obviously differ.
Also, if the development follows different paths, there are different views on the matter. E.g. again, look at pre- and WWII tank classifications. One faction got "quality reinforcement" category, another "cruiser" category, and even "Light", "Medium" and "Heavy" are understood somewhat differently.
Thus classes have sense mostly per-faction, except influenced factions that copy each other.
In VS, since Luddites are extreme Purists and Security are recruited from and sponsored by Purists, they would see things much the same way.
Shapers probably won't. Merchants need a range of haulers for different lanes (i.e. differ in total bulk and landing/shuttle functions), with range of escorts for them for different threats - most likely buying the latter from others, but may internally reclassify them by purpose.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by Hicks »

Even if each race classified its ships differently to everyone elses, each faction would classify enemy ships with reference to its own. They would still take each enemy ship, compare it to its own classification system, and see where it fits in best.
Merchants might need a large range of haulers, which would result in many different ship designs, but they can all be classified into a small, medium or large (or Xlarge) category.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by travists »

I must agree. It is likely misunderstanding, but how I read TBeholder's argument we need 1,000+ ships each named and classed by each faction (20+) resulting in a total number of names well in excess of 20,000! There can be (and in this case is) a wide gulf between universe creation and game making.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by Hicks »

travists wrote:
Hicks wrote:Corvette
500 to 1,500 tons Smallest military ship that requires a crew
Has turret mounted weapons
What do you define as crew? Heavy(large) fighters would likely have turrets as would bombers to make up for lack of maneuverability. They may also have a co-pilot/weapons officer.
A crew that can stay in base longer then a few hours,, so for days, weeks, maybe month, so basic galley, beds etc.
travists wrote:
Hicks wrote:Carrier
-Standard carrier - 50,000 tons small/medium turrets, little armour. Carries fighters/bombers for protection.
Smaller craft have a small flight deck and fighter compliment for protection. Carrier implies that the flightgroup is the main offensive capability.
Reworded to "Provideds a mobile base for a large number of fighters/bombers"
travists wrote: Are there no military transports?
Yes i suppose there would be, but they would more then likely be civillian transporters with increased armour and shielding
travists wrote:
Hicks wrote:Civillain
Most civillian ships have little/no weapons, little sheilding and armour
It is a hostile galaxy, even civilians need to defend themselves. During the "Great Age of Sail" merchant (civilian) vessels where often heavily armed. It also would seem likely that there would be a fairly large mercenary (technically still civilian) population needing ships.
Yes i suppose but not all ships were heavily armed. Cargo ships would have less weapons compared to a military vessel of the same size, but it doesn't mean they all have none. Some might have none, but have a larger cargohold in return, making them better for safe runs. But there would be varients designed for high risk transporting. And with the upgrades people can increase the defences of their craft with more armour/shielding.
travists wrote:
Hicks wrote:Cargo - Most cargo ships carry about their mass in cargo
-Small 100 tons to 500 tons
-Medium 500 tons to 5,000 tons
-Large 5,000 to 50,000 tons

Transporter
50 to 500 tons, used to transport people around the universe
There is little difference in design between inanimate cargo and people transport, asside from how the inside is equipped.
[/quote]
Transporter could be used to describe the equivilant of a crusie liner compared to a cargo ship.

I have also added a shuttle class, to describe the equivilant of the average persons car.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by travists »

Hicks wrote:
travists wrote:
Hicks wrote:Civillain
Most civillian ships have little/no weapons, little sheilding and armour
It is a hostile galaxy, even civilians need to defend themselves. During the "Great Age of Sail" merchant (civilian) vessels where often heavily armed. It also would seem likely that there would be a fairly large mercenary (technically still civilian) population needing ships.
Yes i suppose but not all ships were heavily armed. Cargo ships would have less weapons compared to a military vessel of the same size, but it doesn't mean they all have none. Some might have none, but have a larger cargohold in return, making them better for safe runs. But there would be varients designed for high risk transporting. And with the upgrades people can increase the defences of their craft with more armour/shielding.
Most certainly. Most ships should be able to mount a basic defense, but do you spring for the larger shield generators and an extra ammo bay or go bare bones to make the most room for cargo?
Hicks wrote:
travists wrote:
Hicks wrote:Cargo - Most cargo ships carry about their mass in cargo
-Small 100 tons to 500 tons
-Medium 500 tons to 5,000 tons
-Large 5,000 to 50,000 tons

Transporter
50 to 500 tons, used to transport people around the universe
There is little difference in design between inanimate cargo and people transport, asside from how the inside is equipped.
Transporter could be used to describe the equivilant of a crusie liner compared to a cargo ship.

I have also added a shuttle class, to describe the equivilant of the average persons car.[/quote]
My thoughts on a "Shuttle"
Personal Shuttle: used for the transport of a small number of persons ranges from basic transportation to a small yacht.
Cargo Shuttle: used to transport goods from large non-atmospheric craft to a planets surface or from a larger vessel to a facility that lacks the proper docking facilities for a ship that size.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by TBeholder »

Hicks wrote:Even if each race classified its ships differently to everyone elses, each faction would classify enemy ships with reference to its own.
As long as they percive it to be similar enough, most likely.
travists wrote:I must agree. It is likely misunderstanding, but how I read TBeholder's argument we need 1,000+ ships each named and classed by each faction (20+) resulting in a total number of names well in excess of 20,000!
Theoretically. Then glue perceived similarities, etc.
Anyway, the point is that classifications are both fluid and unreliable. What we need is more or less what we have: behaviour/target types that go into rows/columns for AI tables (these obviously should be unequivocal) and classifications for goods (these may overlap).
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by travists »

I see, two different concepts! What I see this as is more player-side how ships are listed and a basic guide for undefined ships. What it should not be is the basis for a rewrite, nor assumed that all groups class the ships this way. If a faction has a developed metric and a ship based on that which does not fit one of these categories immediately: build the ship, then figure out how to group it.
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Re: Ship Sizes/Classification

Post by Hicks »

This is supposed to be a playerside thing, just to help the player compare ships, or to work out the approximate strength of an enemy without knowing exact specs of the ship. It also allows the player to look for a specific type of ship, whether it is a small fighter, transport, or capship.

added personal shuttle and cargo shuttle
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