Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Talk among developers, and propose and discuss general development planning/tackling/etc... feature in this forum.
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Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

A ship’s crew has been talked about for some time, but has yet to materialize. For whatever it is worth, here is my two cents.

Crewmen:
Each crew-member should have several stats that the captain (Player) uses to make crew assignments, and the game uses to make them available. Perhaps the player should have these as well.
  • Name: Everybody has one even people that don’t really exist.
  • Wages in Cr/stardate tenth: I know I don’t work for free.
  • Morale: how well do they like their job? -Affects performance
  • Piloting Skill: how well can they fly? -Particularly important for a wingman or fleet pilot.
  • Gunnery Skill: how well can they fight? -Affects weapons accuracy essential for turret. gunner, wingman, or fleet pilot.
  • Engineering Skill: how well can they keep the ship running? -Affects repair rate and if very high or low skill power available.
  • Cargo Handling: how well can they on load, offload, and stow cargo? -Affects time at a base to move cargo and efficiency with which it is stored.
  • People Skills: do they play well with others? -Affects morale of others.
  • Cooking Ability: there’s always the food synthesizer, but its nothing like a home cooked meal! -Affects morale
  • Medical Training: Ability to treat wounds
  • Health: similar to the damage on components.
  • Science Skill: Knowledge of all things sciencey (Special Use)

Crew Positions:

[1] One per ship
[+] Multiple allowed
[1/] One per appropriate facility
  • Captain (large ships only): Usually filled by player, if player has multiple large ships active affects overall performance. [1]
  • Helmsman/Fleet Pilot (Medium to large ships): Determines how well the ship flies and main guns fight, and on smaller ships fills the same role as Captain. Filled by player on main ship unless otherwise assigned. [1]
  • Turret Gunner (Any ship that supports turrets): Determines accuracy of the turret. [1/]
  • Chief Engineer (Medium to large ships): Determines repair rate of shipboard systems. If Engineering Skill is high gives boost to available power, if low adds a penalty. [1]
  • Engineering Tech. (Large ships only): Assists CE with repair duties allowing more than one system to be fixed at a time.[+]
  • Flight Mechanic (Ships with a full flight deck): Determines speed with which fighters docked are repaired, refitted, and munitions are on/offloaded. [+]
  • Ship’s Doctor: (Large ships only): Heals wounds, and boosts morale by treating day-to-day ills.[1/]
  • Medic: (Medium to large ships): Heals wounds on medium ships and Assists SD on large to increase number of patients that can be treated. [+]
  • Quartermaster (Large ships): Determines amount of time that must be spent loading/unloading cargo. Due to organizational abilities if Cargo Handling Skill is very high can be like a cargo expansion, if quite low effective cargo room is reduced. [1]
  • Cook (Medium to large ships): responsible for turning resources into food. The better the cook the better ship wide morale. If exceptionally poor may have a negative effect on morale. Also determines efficiency with which food stockpiles are used.[1/]
  • Wingman (fighters, bombers): Affects the skill with which those covering your backside fly and fight. [1/]
  • Science Department Head: Runs a lab if you have one. [1/]
  • Researcher: Aids their department head. [+]
Ship Facilities:
  • Bridge/cockpit (innate): Where the ship is directed from.
  • Engineering (innate): Where all systems hook together.
  • Turrets (pre-existing upgrade, weapon mounts): independently rotate able gun or missile mounts, usually manned.
  • Crew quarters: Everybody needs a place to rest their head. A pilot or turret gunner can crash in their seat, but even they prefer a bed. Comes in various sizes and luxury levels, determines number of crew-members you can keep, and affects morale.
  • Lounge: Just takes up space, unless you want your crew and/or passengers to have some fun. Affects morale, and kinds of passenger missions available.
  • Passenger Quarters (existing, but in need of better implementation): Like those for your crew they come in various sizes and luxury levels. Affects types and number of passengers for passenger missions.
  • Flight deck: Sometimes a hull needs a little modification, but if you want to use some of your space to launch and land smaller craft this is what you want! Comes in various craft size capabilities.
  • Hanger: A place to put docked ships until you need them comes in various sizes.
  • Support Supply Storage: If you want to run ships from your flight deck you need somewhere to but the extra fuel, weapons, upgrades, and repair parts.
  • Med Bay: For the treatment of wounded there is no better place. Comes in various sophistication and sizes. Allows for medical aid missions.
  • Medical Storage: Extends the abilities of your Med Bay by housing additional supplies.
  • Galley: If you have a cook he needs somewhere to cook, and your crew needs somewhere to eat.
  • Pantry: If you have to eat, you have to pack it! Comes in various sizes.
  • Cargo Bay: You want to transport cargo you have to put it somewhere. Comes in various sizes.
  • Science Lab: comes in various types, sizes and sophistication, allows for special research missions.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

Any thoughts, additions, objections?
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by pheonixstorm »

Still thinking so not sure yet. Need to reread and digest it.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by TBeholder »

One, the species should matter (starting with g-force tolerances).
Two, let's start with lifesupport...
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

I was considering ship systems, but decided I'd leave it at "rooms"

Other systems would include
  • life support: atmosphere type
  • Fuel tanks
  • Ship's magazine: because pulling into port every time you need to reload is a pain.
  • Replicator
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by klauss »

Ya, a lot to digest.

My first thoughts: all good points, but completely useless without any gameplay effect. Ie: crew need to have an effect on gameplay, and all that means a lot of new development. So, good in general as a final objective, but not good on the short run.

Any plan on iterative improvements along these lines?

Let me note: ship facilities are a very possible feature, in fact, WCU has that in the form of "dock to self". It can be expanded on that idea, and ship interiors could be implemented with little effort past making the interfaces themselves.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:My first thoughts: all good points, but completely useless without any gameplay effect. Ie: crew need to have an effect on gameplay, and all that means a lot of new development. So, good in general as a final objective, but not good on the short run.
Gameplay effects:
Change lag time at bases, thus profit
Abilities of auto repair
Missions avalible
Cost of maintaining crew
Enabling turret AI
Intelligence of flightgroup members
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:Change lag time at bases, thus profit
We have no lag times at present. I'm not convinced we would want big lag times (they get in the way of... playing).
travists wrote:Abilities of auto repair
We have repair bots for that. Why would you want a crew of people you have to pay? (not saying no, just pointing out buts to be answered).
travists wrote:Missions avalible
Interesting point. Wouldn't hurt to elaborate on this. This can actually be developed right now.
travists wrote:Cost of maintaining crew
Again, cost without benefits is a show-stopper.
travists wrote:Enabling turret AI
Interesting point. Manned turrets, instead of turret AI.
What was the canon around AI in VS? I remember something about that.
travists wrote:Intelligence of flightgroup members
Wingmen you don't have to hire (or that you pre-hire) or even AI qualities (skill) are big undeveloped points. Developing this is certainly not immediate.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:
travists wrote:Change lag time at bases, thus profit
We have no lag times at present. I'm not convinced we would want big lag times (they get in the way of... playing).
With the exception of multi-player adding the time to the stardate counter would suffice.
travists wrote:Abilities of auto repair
We have repair bots for that. Why would you want a crew of people you have to pay? (not saying no, just pointing out buts to be answered).
repair bots are a good baseline. A good level in your engineering department improves rate and quality of work, poor you are better to have a bot. Why hire human cargo pilots rather than install an AI unit in a ship? The other thing a good Engineering head does is function as a reactor booster. They may have other abilities as well.
travists wrote:Missions avalible
Interesting point. Wouldn't hurt to elaborate on this. This can actually be developed right now.
More to come!
travists wrote:Cost of maintaining crew
Again, cost without benefits is a show-stopper.
travists wrote:Enabling turret AI
Interesting point. Manned turrets, instead of turret AI.
What was the canon around AI in VS? I remember something about that.
You can find the http://wiki.vega-strike.org/Terminology:Artificial_Intelligence wiki info on AI fairly quickly. Generally looks like they lack the intuition of humans, a must for effective targeting.
However, another option would be to install an appropriate AI system, but human or AI your turret should not be able to fire on its own. (Large one-time cost and moderate skill vs. smaller reoccurring cost and varied skill up to always hits)
travists wrote:Intelligence of flightgroup members
Wingmen you don't have to hire (or that you pre-hire) or even AI qualities (skill) are big undeveloped points. Developing this is certainly not immediate.
[/quote]
I know programmers are short, but this is needed regardless of what happens with crew.

In general, everything you would hire crew for you can get an AI system for (including the player’s job!), but in many intellectual or human interaction jobs live crew is better. A crew is cheaper in the short run, but more costly in the long run. Which is better is a matter of personal preference.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:
travists wrote:Missions avalible
Interesting point. Wouldn't hurt to elaborate on this. This can actually be developed right now.
More missions :mrgreen:

Some missions I see:
Diplomatic Escort: Needs R&R facilities and posh passenger quarters, possibly requiring high-end food.
Passenger Run: Like a modern airliner, just passenger room, food on longer runs.
Medical Assistance: Requires medical facilities and a skilled medical officer. Frequently requires additional medical supplies.
Science Mission: These come in many flavors. Requiring anywhere from just a scientific add-on for your sensor to several science labs (fully staffed), advanced sensors, and the ability to launch and retrieve a sample recovery shuttle.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:With the exception of multi-player adding the time to the stardate counter would suffice.
Largely inconsequential. And before you think of making time matter, it's bad design for a game. Games where time moves like in reality, without the user doing anything, are an inconvenience to players. Players don't want to be inconvenienced, or rushed. So time has to follow the player, and not the other way around.
travists wrote:repair bots are a good baseline. A good level in your engineering department improves rate and quality of work, poor you are better to have a bot. Why hire human cargo pilots rather than install an AI unit in a ship? The other thing a good Engineering head does is function as a reactor booster. They may have other abilities as well.
Repair times are also a moot point. Repair bots are fast enough already, and if you make them slower, they're good for nothing, and faster they're a balance hazard.
You'd have to gamble with repair capabilities, not speed.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:
klauss wrote:
travists wrote:Missions avalible
Interesting point. Wouldn't hurt to elaborate on this. This can actually be developed right now.
More missions :mrgreen:

Some missions I see:
Diplomatic Escort: Needs R&R facilities and posh passenger quarters, possibly requiring high-end food.
Passenger Run: Like a modern airliner, just passenger room, food on longer runs.
Medical Assistance: Requires medical facilities and a skilled medical officer. Frequently requires additional medical supplies.
Science Mission: These come in many flavors. Requiring anywhere from just a scientific add-on for your sensor to several science labs (fully staffed), advanced sensors, and the ability to launch and retrieve a sample recovery shuttle.
I'd suggest, right now, disabled mission types aren't even listed in the mission computer.
This needs changing, since we want people to know they have to buy X or Y to access them.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:So time has to follow the player, and not the other way around.
...You'd have to gamble with repair capabilities, not speed.
Most definitely and agreed!

Time only counts linearly while in non-paused spaceflight, otherwise it's the sum of time consuming activities on base. (Of course, in MMO time counts like in real life just to keep everybody in sync.) Where time matters is in calculating crew pay, and some time sensitive missions. (I have always disliked those missions that your told "Hurry up, we don't have much time!" but you can take a month of in-game time to do it and it doesn’t matter. Time matters or it doesn’t, don't tell me it does than not enforce it.

I’m fine with capabilities, what is a good number for the programmatic AI run repair bots vs. a skilled organic? Any issues with more = more systems repaired at a time?
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:I'd suggest, right now, disabled mission types aren't even listed in the mission computer.
This needs changing, since we want people to know they have to buy X or Y to access them.
Sounds good.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:Where time matters is in calculating crew pay
Not a big enough difference IMO.
travists wrote:Time only counts linearly while in non-paused spaceflight, otherwise it's the sum of time consuming activities on base.
Talking about time consuming activities... did you see how much time it takes to build up a price list? Specialized crew could handle that.
travists wrote:and some time sensitive missions.
Care to elaborate? Like which?
travists wrote:I’m fine with capabilities, what is a good number for the programmatic AI run repair bots vs. a skilled organic? Any issues with more = more systems repaired at a time?
Capabilities in you can fix this, you can't fix that, or you can fix 100% or only partially.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:
travists wrote:Where time matters is in calculating crew pay
Not a big enough difference IMO.
Have a better crew payment method?
travists wrote:Time only counts linearly while in non-paused spaceflight, otherwise it's the sum of time consuming activities on base.
Talking about time consuming activities... did you see how much time it takes to build up a price list? Specialized crew could handle that.
Have not noticed building up a price list, aside from when you land on a base/planet and look at goods. Is that what you are referring to? If it is cargo, your quartermaster oversees that. (When you have full on fleet operations, the ship’s quartermaster is second only to the captain in determining how well they run cargo for you.)
travists wrote:and some time sensitive missions.
Care to elaborate? Like which?
Medical, obviously, would have tight time constraints. Perhaps some cargo missions could be "time limited". Like the big international shippers today: if it absolutely has to be there overnight they can do it, but it will cost you.
travists wrote:I’m fine with capabilities, what is a good number for the programmatic AI run repair bots vs. a skilled organic? Any issues with more = more systems repaired at a time?
Capabilities in you can fix this, you can't fix that, or you can fix 100% or only partially.
I think a droid would max out at about 90%, advanced droids can manage 100%. Only humans can take part stockpiles and repair a destroyed item. A human engineer can fix just about anything if skilled enough. They can even direct droids (if you have the right hull patches) in the delicate operation of in-flight armor repair.

--Need a laugh? I usually run my posts through MS Word when I’m using IE. Word insists that when I say “droid” I mean “druid”. R2-D2, stop messing around and help me finish Stonehenge!--
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:Have not noticed building up a price list, aside from when you land on a base/planet and look at goods. Is that what you are referring to?
Yes, you have a list of "seen" prices, and it's very useful, but you have to actually check prices in order to build up that list. It takes a lot of time, and some stuff can go unnoticed.
A quartermaster could do that for you, and even suggest trading routes. It wouldn't be that difficult to do.
travists wrote:Medical, obviously, would have tight time constraints. Perhaps some cargo missions could be "time limited". Like the big international shippers today: if it absolutely has to be there overnight they can do it, but it will cost you.
Ok, but how does the crew matter there?
travists wrote:I think a droid would max out at about 90%, advanced droids can manage 100%. Only humans can take part stockpiles and repair a destroyed item. A human engineer can fix just about anything if skilled enough. They can even direct droids (if you have the right hull patches) in the delicate operation of in-flight armor repair.
Might work.
We should split that into steps.
Step 1: making repair droids repair only partially, with more advanced repair droids repairing faster or better.
travists wrote:--Need a laugh? I usually run my posts through MS Word when I’m using IE. Word insists that when I say “droid” I mean “druid”. R2-D2, stop messing around and help me finish Stonehenge!--
LOL, I have never gotten used to spell checkers, mostly because of the high number of false positives. These tales don't help either ;)
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by Deus Siddis »

travists wrote: You can find the http://wiki.vega-strike.org/Terminology:Artificial_Intelligence wiki info on AI fairly quickly. Generally looks like they lack the intuition of humans, a must for effective targeting.
Didn't get that impression from that article at all. The PAIs for example seem to be cybernetically-supported human brains designed to be obedient and to be specialized for a particular task. So one designed for targeting would be fairly good at that task though a highly experienced natural crew member could do somewhat better.

The biggest difference might be that a PAI represents an expensive one time purchase, while a natural crewman will need either continuous paychecks, a percentage of your earnings or some personal or political zealotry to you.
However, another option would be to install an appropriate AI system, but human or AI your turret should not be able to fire on its own. (Large one-time cost and moderate skill vs. smaller reoccurring cost and varied skill up to always hits)
It's very reasonable to assume that your turrets or ship would already have the hardware and software to utilize these weapon systems. Specialist crew and AIs should just be about improving performance over the basic command systems but at a higher price (either one time, regular pay intervals, commission based, etc.)
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:It's very reasonable to assume that your turrets or ship would already have the hardware and software to utilize these weapon systems. Specialist crew and AIs should just be about improving performance over the basic command systems but at a higher price (either one time, regular pay intervals, commission based, etc.)
And I quote:
Ever since the first moderately successful forays into AI were made by Humanity centuries ago, there has been some overarching distrust of true artificials, especially since many of the early models proved to have dangerously high risk of sanity loss.

Research beyond this point has thus been, not only difficult due to the nature of the research, but heavily hampered by regulatory restrictions.
That's a nice excuse not to get software to do that. At least not in civilian craft.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

klauss wrote:
travists wrote:Medical, obviously, would have tight time constraints. Perhaps some cargo missions could be "time limited". Like the big international shippers today: if it absolutely has to be there overnight they can do it, but it will cost you.
Ok, but how does the crew matter there?
Miscommunication, I thought you where asking about how time matters. Crew affects time for cargo runs in how long it takes to load and unload your craft. (If you rely solely on dock crews it will take longer than an experienced quartermaster, but if he is poor it will take longer and you are better off leaving that slot blank) Crew allows certain missions when their specialty is required. Medical, science, other?
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by pheonixstorm »

A lot of these ideas would be great for an rpg but think in terms of an fps (which is a generalization of what a flight sim is)
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

Ok, so what does a crew do? The crew stats exist solely to differentiate abilities, much like the weight, cost, power consumption, and output of upgrades. The only reason I though giving the player these is when the player is filling all jobs. Not RPG, but more RTS.
I see "crew" as just fancy upgrades in VS. They have different costs, and change what you ship can do and how well it can do it. Problem is they are "people", and as such pigeonholing them into "hire medic level 1" or "hire quartermaster level 3" is a disservice; both to "them" and crewing your ship.

As captain, you can choose to put someone who is skilled in cargo in the galley, but you would be ill advised to do so. Your crew is just another facet of resource management.

As to whether they advance in skills... A nice thought, but more of a final touch.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by klauss »

travists wrote: I see "crew" as just fancy upgrades in VS. They have different costs, and change what you ship can do and how well it can do it.
Exactly, I've been thinking, they could be implemented as upgrades.
Not sure whether we should, but it's possible.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by travists »

Here is how it could work:
Each crew position is essentially an additive upgrade.
What crew member is assigned to that position determines the effect that upgrade has (+,-, %, bonus abilities) with skill being modified by morale and health. (Like power fed to it and damage respectively)
Any RPG nature to it is just for show, your crew is just raw data changing your ship's characteristics.
Don't need the added features of a live crew, or don't want the expense? Just install the AI/Robotic equivalent.
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Re: Musings on Permanent Wingmen and Ship Crew

Post by klauss »

Won't that lock us in an unflexible and convoluted design?

That's the main question regarding implementation as upgrades.
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