Docking: automate it.

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Docking: automate it.

Post by Boaal »

Quite simple.
Planets are the only easy thing to dock with at the moment. Almost everything else is a pain in the arse because the physics clash with the gameplay aspect. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has spent a fairly large, an unnecessarily large, and frustrating, amount of time tying to dock somewhere.

What I suggest is that an X3-esque system of docking is implemented - by god it's a lot nicer. Oh sweet grief is it nicer!
I don't want to turn this game into X3, but there are a fair few small things that that game did right. Docking was one of them.

The system right now is fiddly and irritating and immersion breaking. Nine times out of ten I dock at planets because unless there is a big fat easy docking space on the outside of a station (like the bottom of the fighter bases) I can not be arsed to dick around with docking spaces. And this with a ship at 100% mass. Unless you're using a nimble little scout ship or something, a lot of the time docking is a process that is far more hassle than it's worth.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Deus Siddis »

Great idea, then all we have to do is make combat automated and player's won't have to be hassled with gameplay of any kind.

Seriously, the game's a space sim. Think like a flight sim, but in space. With these kinds of games you are a pilot who actually pilots things. You already have an autopilot that get's you from here to there while you nap. Now you want to do nothing once you get there too?

The reason your ship has crew space and life support is so that you can handle complex situations like docking, landing and combat. Otherwise you don't have a game anymore, you have a screensaver.

What should be done is stations should never shoot at you unless fired upon significantly, that's the only real hassle of docking- the station shooting at you when you bump into it a bit. After that's fixed, docking should become more complex and require actual skill, because this is a sim and so that's where much of the fun and meat is- in actually doing some things yourself. Not having everything abstracted like in a full on RPG.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by klauss »

I actually like the challenge of docking a fully loaded llama :D

But we need more controls. The ship has to strafe into position, and those keys aren't bound by default. And the manual has to be updated to teach you docking. And perhaps the tutorial too.

And a few guiding boxes (think of ILS) would also help.

But full automation? That would be boring.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by segfault »

I as well quite love the difficulty of docking (now after I took the time to learn all the controls). And I would actually say that the tough docking experience enhances game emersion, not detracting from it. Vega Strike does it beautifully in my opinion, especially at simulating the hassle of docking with a fully/heavy load of cargo.
Though I'm not sure i follow Klauss' statement about the strafing controls not being mapped by default...
Isn't that just the "<" and ">" keys?
I had them bound by default (I'm pretty sure) and once I figured out how to use them, docking became manageable and more fun. Realistic even.

perhaps your docking experience would as well be enhanced by making use of the "<" and ">" keys (as well as "[shift] <" and "[shift] >" and "home").
Here was the break through reference for me: http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... _layout:US

Good luck and happy flying/crashing!
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by klauss »

Hm... I've had other mappings fail on me (things that were mapped on the .config weren't recognized). I think there must be a bug that makes it fail to recognize some keystrokes on my keyboard layout (latam).

I'll have to dig into that, because the <> don't work for me. :( (I just assumed it was because they weren't mapped)
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Rattan »

I've never found the docking to be all that hard. You take it a bit easy on the way in and get lined up with the bay and it's pretty much like any flight sim or etc.

I don't use strafe generally. Pitch, yaw, roll and thrust. If you're not coming in good, then veer off and try it again until you're on the line. Ok, some bases/ships where the docking point is a ways in are a bit of a challenge. But that's kinda the point I think?

Besides, when you pull off a landing that's maybe a bit tricky, it's one of the "Woohoo!" moments of the game. Part of the fun. Just try taking it very slow and easy at first.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Boaal »

Personally, I think you guys are nuts or masochistic. The point about the game being entirely automated is blown entirely out of proportion - are you then going to tell that the entire game is docking and undocking? The point is that this is a game, sim or not, and thus the player benefits more from not having to mess around with something as inconsequential as docking at a station, or at least not the hassle that it can be right now. it's one thing to say 'go slow' but what when you have a whole bunch of enemies firing on you and need a quick breather? The system as it stands is not helpful.

What i do at the station is important. What I do in space is important, in my case attempt to start wars, the journey there, unless filled with amazing scenery and whatnot (Which you're not going to find in space...) is simply a means to an end. I'm not saying that i don't mind the flying, but primarily I use it as an easy way to get to where I want to go, to do what i want to do, not because it's incredibly immersive and fulfilling. The same applies to docking.

On the subject of key bindings, you should really look into a reconfigurable system - I can't be the only one that would prefer to strafe with ASWD...
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Deus Siddis »

Boaal wrote:Personally, I think you guys are nuts or masochistic. The point about the game being entirely automated is blown entirely out of proportion - are you then going to tell that the entire game is docking and undocking?
The primary focus of the game as it stands now, is for you to actively fly your ship in a reasonably intelligent way when there isn't empty space hundreds of kilometers on every side of you. If you are near an asteroid belt, station, planetary body or enemy squadron, you are on, it's game time. Your simple buy/sell, accept/decline decision making interface only comes as a side order.

This is a space sim and the only point of the autopilot and SPEC/JUMP is to cut through the big empty middle of space travel where there wouldn't be anything to do anyway. It's not meant to be used to skip over the remaining 1% of the journey.
The point is that this is a game, sim or not, and thus the player benefits more from not having to mess around with something as inconsequential as docking at a station, or at least not the hassle that it can be right now. it's one thing to say 'go slow' but what when you have a whole bunch of enemies firing on you and need a quick breather? The system as it stands is not helpful.
You seem to somehow be looking at this from every wrong angle at once.

If you think it should be inconsequential, you should play some flight sims. Landing is the main challenge there, docking in VS is nothing like that, it is so damned simple and easy.

If you think you should be able to easily and automatically duck into a station while under attack, to fully repair and rearm for a "breather", then rinse and repeat, well then you've dissolved most all the intended gameplay for yourself, and is not inconsequential. You are better off save hacking then.

Docking and landing are supposed to make you more vulnerable in some ways (namely speed), this is not a design flaw, it makes you consider your options more carefully.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Neskiairti »

my only complaint about docking is, its hardly realistic..

most stations are going to have some sort of docking computer to take over incoming traffic and guide them in. as a station owner, I sure as hell wouldnt trust a few million ton space ship trying to slide up to one of my docking ports without crashing... a single miss fired engine and suddenly my station is breached and thousands of people could die. :p

sure its a challenge, and it can be fun.. but.. larger stations or readily used stations should have docking computers that take control.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Deus Siddis »

That's like saying modern air travel is unrealistic, because the guys in the control tower should land airliners via remote control.

Such would be way more hazardous and complicated and not very realistic at all.

Automation should only take over at the very end of the docking procedure when the ship has reached a stop very close to a docking zone, which is basically how the game already does it.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Boaal »

Deus Siddis wrote:
The point is that this is a game, sim or not, and thus the player benefits more from not having to mess around with something as inconsequential as docking at a station, or at least not the hassle that it can be right now. it's one thing to say 'go slow' but what when you have a whole bunch of enemies firing on you and need a quick breather? The system as it stands is not helpful.
You seem to somehow be looking at this from every wrong angle at once.

If you think it should be inconsequential, you should play some flight sims. Landing is the main challenge there, docking in VS is nothing like that, it is so damned simple and easy.

If you think you should be able to easily and automatically duck into a station while under attack, to fully repair and rearm for a "breather", then rinse and repeat, well then you've dissolved most all the intended gameplay for yourself, and is not inconsequential. You are better off save hacking then.

Docking and landing are supposed to make you more vulnerable in some ways (namely speed), this is not a design flaw, it makes you consider your options more carefully.
I don't think I am looking at this from the wrong angle, if anything I am hearing half baked attempts at defending a broken game mechanic, and thus the wrong angle, because of a love for the game, believe me we've all been there and done it, but in the end it serves no purpose and frequently holds progression back.

I'm not saying I want to be immune to stuff while I'm docking - by all means these people can keep blowing the crap out me while I'm being dragged in to dock, but if I undock, and I'm surrounded by a few dozen ships that are still going to be there when I die and respawn anyway, then I'm not going sit there and die repeatedly. I'm going to either try and run, and if that's not applicable then I'll keep ducking in and out, shooting what I can until everything is gone, and I ultimately survive.

I'm certainly not against vulnerability in docking, if anything i would be happy to keep it, but I'd rather the process is not nearly as prone to accidental death as it is. At very least, I would welcome a more defined docking box - a 2d square is not enough, especially in some of the tighter squeezes, like the Aera fighter base - you have a triangular hole with a 2D box that is seemingly centimetres way from the wall. This doesn't take anything but 'mash the D button in the hope that you'll dock before you hit the wall directly behind it ' skills.

You want to make flight a big thing in the game then maybe we should have generated asteroid belts in which to fly, I wouldn't be averse to that al because that would make it interesting, but I don't see how defending landing as a brilliant piece of immersive gameplay and what have you, can be upheld, because if it was then flight simulators would not be flight simulators. They would be landing simulators.

Also - 'realism' should never be used to defend a space sim. That's utter bollocks. You can put physics in a space sim like this, and that's about as far as you can go. Realism would cut away the spec drive and have us trawling for years across a barren and limitlessly vast galaxy with nothing to do but watch the scenery. Realism would cut away the combat. Realism would almost certainly cut away every faction in vegastrike like the Rlaan and Aera. I;m all for physics being incorporated into games, physics are always nice when handled well, but lets not bring realism into this.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by klauss »

Boaal wrote:I'm certainly not against vulnerability in docking, if anything i would be happy to keep it, but I'd rather the process is not nearly as prone to accidental death as it is. At very least, I would welcome a more defined docking box - a 2d square is not enough, especially in some of the tighter squeezes, like the Aera fighter base - you have a triangular hole with a 2D box that is seemingly centimetres way from the wall. This doesn't take anything but 'mash the D button in the hope that you'll dock before you hit the wall directly behind it ' skills.
Granted, some docking ports are dangerously close to the stations, making them hard to approach. Feel free to report them, we may get to fixing them.
But, on the other hand, not all stations and not all docking ports on all stations are designed to service all kinds of ships. It may be that your ship is too big to approach that docking port safely.
Boaal wrote:You want to make flight a big thing in the game then maybe we should have generated asteroid belts in which to fly, I wouldn't be averse to that al because that would make it interesting
Haven't you seen an asteroid field ingame?
Ok, they're not soooo cool, but they're... asteroid fields. And dangerous.
Boaal wrote:but I don't see how defending landing as a brilliant piece of immersive gameplay and what have you, can be upheld, because if it was then flight simulators would not be flight simulators. They would be landing simulators.
Just check a flight simulator. You seem not to have done that, because flight sims have landing (and crash-landing in some) as one of the most difficult tasks ever.
I remember when I regularly played flight simulators, I would take off without a hitch, but I would crash on landing the first time with every simulator. Each simulator is different, with differring levels of realism, and each requires practice to get right.
It's part of the game.

With VS, docking is immersive. It provides you with a few moments in which you have a clear sense of scale, which is missing throughout the rest of the game (since in space you have few reference points). It provides you with a "wow" moments when you see a new, previously unseen base type. And the time to properly appreciate the art.

In fact, approaching and docking with stations are the only moments in VS when things are calm enough for sightseeing.

And it's a different kind of challenge to fighting or trading. It adds variety.

I've been tempted to increase the distance at which SPEC gets disabled for this and other reasons. Ie: the approach to a station should take a little while, give enemies time to catch up with you, in case you're being chased (since it's not at all realistic to be able to "escape by docking"), give you time to watch the traffic around the station, the surroundings, appreciate the station's scale (if big, or if small).

I don't see how you could attack docking's immersiveness after all those points.
Boaal wrote:Also - 'realism' should never be used to defend a space sim. That's utter bollocks. You can put physics in a space sim like this, and that's about as far as you can go. Realism would cut away the spec drive and have us trawling for years across a barren and limitlessly vast galaxy with nothing to do but watch the scenery. Realism would cut away the combat. Realism would almost certainly cut away every faction in vegastrike like the Rlaan and Aera. I;m all for physics being incorporated into games, physics are always nice when handled well, but lets not bring realism into this.
Just try to understand what you're being told, instead of simply bashing against it. When people mention "realism" in a game, they're not really talking about that kind of realism you think they are, they're talking about "suspension of disbelief", that is, consistency in the game to a level that allows you to put yourself in your character's shoes and "be part of the game", without completely unbelievable events ruining the experience, taking you out of your fantasy and bringing attention to the fact that "it's a game".
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Psyco Diver 69 »

Try docking a Mule then, what a pain. Is it possible to make docking areas for certain ships, like Mules or other ship in similar size can dock outside the ship and small ships have to dock on the side or inside the base?
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by klauss »

Big enough stations will already have that docking area.

Small stations, I think you're supposed to shuttle into them. Ie: carry a smaller ship inside the mule, launch it and dock with the station using that smaller ship.

I'm not sure how all that is done, I've never played with the big ships, but I've read people do that. And it makes sense, not all stations have big enough docking areas for mules, clydesdales and such.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Boaal »

The simple solution is, as suggested, to have outside docking ports for larger ship - the mining bases for instance. Never mind the fact that I never use the inside ones because the outside ones are so much easier to use, but the point is valid. And why wouldn't stations have outside docking ports for larger ships - all of them. I mean sure transport cargo by shuttle from ship to station by all means - but is it not a far lesser waste of time to simply infer this type of thing, than to go through the process potentially several times? Have a docking port somewhere off to the side of the station which signals a place for larger ships to stand to, while everything else is done.

The point about asteroid fields - they're there, but they're usually off to the side somewhere that you'll never need to go - they're never used apart from, potentially, an asteroid base or a jump point. Usually the asteroids are pretty small clusters too, about as large as a Dodo - what about having some really large ones floating around at random in space? The planetary rings - ok this is far harder to do I grant - is there a way in which you can make it look like a 2D plane of dust and whatever from afar and render in objects as ships draw closer?

I'm not sure how referencing flight sims in a space sim game is even relevant to be honest - the two are extremely far removed. Flight sims, as is my understanding, are indeed trying to deal with realism and get as close to a 'real' experience as possible. Space sims on the other hand require a vast amount of suspension of disbelief and employ verisimilitude as standard throughout. The entire point is believability rather than 'realism', you can't give space combat/trading sims realism, but you can make them believable.

Going back to the appreciation of art, and I will reference X3 again, if you've ever played it then I'm sure that the first time you were pulled into port on one of those mega shipyards and realised just how large and impressive the things were, that none of the immersion was broken by you not having control of the things, if anything it gave you more time to take it in.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Deus Siddis »

Boaal wrote:The simple solution is, as suggested, to have outside docking ports for larger ship - the mining bases for instance.
Some of this in particular might have more to do with simple slow development progress, as opposed to game design. Many of the individual station's content and data is simply outdated, which is why it isn't so functional.
The point about asteroid fields - they're there, but they're usually off to the side somewhere that you'll never need to go - they're never used apart from, potentially, an asteroid base or a jump point.
Again, this is an area that has not yet, but will be further developed in the future. Asteroid belts could be a major focus of destinations and activity since they represent a vast supply of resources with no gravity well putting a high energy cost on accessing them.
I'm not sure how referencing flight sims in a space sim game is even relevant to be honest - the two are extremely far removed. Flight sims, as is my understanding, are indeed trying to deal with realism and get as close to a 'real' experience as possible. Space sims on the other hand require a vast amount of suspension of disbelief and employ verisimilitude as standard throughout. The entire point is believability rather than 'realism', you can't give space combat/trading sims realism, but you can make them believable.
This isn't true, flight sims often include "unrealistic" features like realism modifiers and time warping. Space sims can be totally realistic if they are designed to be. But a simulator game in general derives more of its gameplay and flavor from realism and immersion, than the other genres, that's it's 'thing'.
Going back to the appreciation of art, and I will reference X3 again, if you've ever played it then I'm sure that the first time you were pulled into port on one of those mega shipyards and realised just how large and impressive the things were, that none of the immersion was broken by you not having control of the things, if anything it gave you more time to take it in.
Large structures and docking aren't only art though, they are part of the gameplay and will likely be more so as the game becomes more developed. For example, once stations and capitals are made not hypersensitive to low grade weapons fire and collisions, and once ship accelerations are turned down to much more reasonable levels, the insides and outsides of stations and larger craft could become actual combat environments and cover. Same thing for asteroids too. And maybe scrap fields, which don't yet exist in the game.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by klauss »

Boaal wrote:The simple solution is, as suggested, to have outside docking ports for larger ship - the mining bases for instance. Never mind the fact that I never use the inside ones because the outside ones are so much easier to use, but the point is valid. And why wouldn't stations have outside docking ports for larger ships - all of them. I mean sure transport cargo by shuttle from ship to station by all means - but is it not a far lesser waste of time to simply infer this type of thing, than to go through the process potentially several times? Have a docking port somewhere off to the side of the station which signals a place for larger ships to stand to, while everything else is done.
Probably, but the right way to do that would be showing a cutscene of a tiny shuttle leaving your ship when you dock in such a place (and if you're a small ship you'd have to be disallowed docking in that port).
However, we've been meaning to have cutscenes a long while now, and I expect them to take another long while getting here, so in the meanwhile adding the docking port (and ship size restrictions) would perhaps be useful.
I'll add the ticket.
Boaal wrote:The point about asteroid fields - they're there, but they're usually off to the side somewhere that you'll never need to go - they're never used apart from, potentially, an asteroid base or a jump point. Usually the asteroids are pretty small clusters too, about as large as a Dodo - what about having some really large ones floating around at random in space? The planetary rings - ok this is far harder to do I grant - is there a way in which you can make it look like a 2D plane of dust and whatever from afar and render in objects as ships draw closer?
There is a way I've been implementing in the engine, but support for that is green, and it requires a great deal of art to get right.
I have it on queue already - for now, the small clusters are what the engine can handle :(
Boaal wrote:I'm not sure how referencing flight sims in a space sim game is even relevant to be honest
Because they're rather similar genres.
Boaal wrote:the two are extremely far removed.
I don't agree. They have more similarities than differences. The absence of air (and air drag) and gravity is pretty much it.
Boaal wrote:Flight sims, as is my understanding, are indeed trying to deal with realism and get as close to a 'real' experience as possible.
Not all of them. Many flight simulators (Falcon III, Strike Commander) purposedly removed some physical realism in order to get a more enjoyable game. People weren't comfortable with realistic simulation in one time, realistic sims weren't common and people didn't find them enjoyable. Microsoft's Flight Simulator series started changing that somehow, and then it all reverted, and flight sims tried to be even able to teach people aviation.
But certainly there's room for both paradigms.
Boaal wrote:Space sims on the other hand require a vast amount of suspension of disbelief and employ verisimilitude as standard throughout. The entire point is believability rather than 'realism', you can't give space combat/trading sims realism, but you can make them believable.
Agreed.
Boaal wrote:Going back to the appreciation of art, and I will reference X3 again, if you've ever played it
Never played it. I know I'm missing a lot, and it's probably a contender with VS (ie: same genre), but... well, never got to buy a copy. Or install a windows just for playing it. I don't think I will either.
Boaal wrote:then I'm sure that the first time you were pulled into port on one of those mega shipyards and realised just how large and impressive the things were, that none of the immersion was broken by you not having control of the things, if anything it gave you more time to take it in.
Actually, when I attempted it I discovered VS really modelled ship mass :)
It was a refreshing experience. I learned to go in easy.

You might learn that too - ie: try to not rush in, that's just a sure recipe for crashing.

However, I will consider the docking port issue... it's certainly worth considering.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Rattan »

Docking a small ship at an outside bay meant for huge cargo haulers just because it's easier would be kind of like parking a small sports car or motorcycle in front of the big loading bays at the back of a retail store instead of the parking lot where customers are supposed to park.. Don't be surprised if you get towed, fined, or your vehicle damaged. LOL

Flight sims are usually based on existing aircraft, while any space sim involving combat and trade is, of necessity, speculative fiction. A certain number of capabilities and equipment items are based on a guess at where technology *may* be in the future time the game is set in. If you look at developments in transportation over the past couple centuries, many "impossible" things are quite standard today. To base the game strictly on currently known Newtonian physics would likely be as far off the mark (if not further) than any of the ideas allowed like the spec drive.

Basically, what the issue seems to boil down to is that the docking isn't to your personal taste. That's ok, it's not exactly to mine either! I find just hitting a green square and hitting the dock key a bit unrealistic. Something like a hook and cable landing or at least having to set down in the bay with skids down would be much nicer, or maybe touching down on a designated magnetic pad or something (to go with something hypothetical and futuristic). That "mashing the D button" is a workable solution at all takes a bit out of what the game could be. The docking reticule and "D button" are perhaps indicative of a tractor system applied when you're in a workable position for it to move you into docking clamps, and that's usually how I justify them to myself when playing. Kind of a pity that something like that isn't shown happening, but that's life. And it's never likely to be 100% what I'd like any more than it is likely to be 100% what you like. That's true of any game out there, probably.

Another point I find unlikely is being able to dock in just any port on a base. More likely, you'd be cleared to land in one in particular. But that's really a minor point and not worth grumping over. I also think the approach to planets when on autopilot is a bit fast, one loses the sense of them looming up and being huge when the approach is *too* quick. But a lot of *other* people complained greatly of how long it took to get from place to place, so the speed was cranked up. Oh well, that's the way it goes.

Others here have suggested trying a flight sim so you have a standard of comparison. I'll additionally suggest that you might try writing an AI to accomplish a realistic docking. The number of parameters and things that can go wrong would require something quite sophisticated, especially when you add in that some opponents will try to kill you by hitting you with a tractor beam as you're trying to dock in a very intentional attempt to cause you to crash. So computerised docking isn't all that realistic as a concept. Often, the best "machine" for a job is a trained sentient being.

I'm also not sure as strafe controls are a very realistic concept. The way most of the ships are built, they'd be at most small attitudinal jets of some sort, and more made for turning than for strafing. Logically, they would move the ship *very* slowly if used to strafe rather than to turn. Some "alien" ships do have x and y thrust, presumably due to drastically different propulsion designs. So it does exist in at least some possibilities of the game, but I don't see where it would be realistic for most of the common ships. Not to say it might not be handy, but it's not all that necessary for a landing anyway. Cars don't have a strafe ability and people park them all the time, sometimes even in awkward spaces. Personally, I think a good joystick is a great help. ("Good" in this case being defined as one you are comfortable with that can be set up to work with the game, not some particular dollar value.) While it's possible to fly in this game with a keyboard and/or mouse, I personally don't find it very intuitive, and it lacks fine control.

But anyway, I feel docking is one of the skills one needs to learn to play this game well. Just as much as fighting or figuring out profitable trade routes. Ok, so you don't like it. But it's one of the elements of the gameplay and one of the things you get better at with practice.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Neskiairti »

the reason it would be automated.. is two fold.
aircraft, to pilot them, you need to be licensed.. I don't see a standardized pilot program in vegastrike, nor is there even a tutorial showing you how to properly dock.

second is the fact that, if you crash your plane on the runway.. it sucks.. kills a few people in the plane, and possibly hits something doing some major damage. However, unless you are really really bad (run ways are fucking huge) you arn't going to barrel straight in to the airport itself.. AND once you park, the airport comes to you, and docks to YOU not the other way around.

a space station, you cant breach the hull, or you are likely going to kill thousands. even with segmented airlocks every 10 feet, a hull breach will allow radiation to penetrate the interior, will cause climate problems, will require replacement air. And more likely in the case of a large ship trying to dock, will result in an explosion as the ship goes up, that damages far more than the crack in hull.

Space stations are fragile, and if I owned one, I sure as hell wouldn't let some random Joe Schmoe alien dock at it himself without being doubly assured he knows how. this isn't parallel parking. Even cars require certification to use in most countries, which requires training, but not nearly as much as a pilot. The proper comparison would be a hotel with a valet, every dick jane and harry has a space ship, only highly trained professionals operate airplanes.

let the valet take care of it.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Psyco Diver 69 »

Neskiairti wrote:Space stations are fragile, and if I owned one, I sure as hell wouldn't let some random Joe Schmoe alien dock at it himself without being doubly assured he knows how. this isn't parallel parking. Even cars require certification to use in most countries, which requires training, but not nearly as much as a pilot. The proper comparison would be a hotel with a valet, every dick jane and harry has a space ship, only highly trained professionals operate airplanes.

let the valet take care of it.
Great point, I can see a space port saying for you to move to a designated area and the tractor system will move you into place. Right now it wouldn't make sense but add a animation of a tractor system moving your ship to a bay or port and it becomes perfectly clear
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by klauss »

I've always wanted for the docking key to "request docking clearance" in a visible chatty way, and once given clearance (and a specific docking port), an ILS-style hud should appear guiding you to the selected docking port.

That would be more realistic, involved, and clear. It should also reserve that docking port - how many times has anyone bumped into a ship that was trying to dock in the same port?
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Rattan »

Well, and what sort of crazy is going to let any unlicensed untrained individual take up and then land something like an Airbus, especially over a populated area? :lol: But that's rather the point of a flight sim, or one way they can be played.. To see what it might be like if you were allowed to give it a try. Can you do it? That's at least a large part of the allure of flight sims, seeing if you could maybe manage it, and what it might be like.

I'm certainly not going to debate the point that more tutorials for VS would be a wonderful idea. Whether it was in-game education or a page or two more tucked into the manual, some additional lessons or even advice on docking (as well as other areas of gameplay) would be great. I vaguely recall a very brief lesson the first time taking off in VS, where the controls and etc were somewhat explained and a first cargo run was somewhat explained. I don't recall it having much coaching at all about actually docking at the Serenity mining base, which is maybe a little bit of a challenge for any newbie. But as such, the idea of at least a bit of tutorial *is* present in the game, it's just "unfinished" like the missions and etc.

What could be great would be if there was eventually a "flight school" mission option, so that players could become acquainted with procedures like docking and get some practice in. Perhaps stations could refuse to allow docking attempts by anyone below a certain level of certification from the flight school. Maybe it could be initially allowed to land on a planet or on facilities where the docking space is exterior to the station or it otherwise has an easy approach and little chance of damage. Stations with more challenging docks might not allow docking by players who haven't done the "flight school" options. Players that are banging up their hulls trying to dock could "go back to flight school" for a bit to take the process a step at a time and see what they're missing. But at present, "docking procedures" are a few paragraphs in the middle of the 72 page manual that I rather doubt most new players even read. It is precious little, but it at least shows some thought was given to the need for education. Sadly, new players who are most inclined to complain about the game are probably also the ones least inclined to read manuals or do tutorials. "There is no cure for RTFM-itis." LOL

Most players don't try a game or sim (at least not at first) to learn about every little detail of the ships and procedures. They try it because it looks like it might be fun. In most flight sims, this results in a certain amount of frustration and crashing of planes. As the recorded voice of Chuck Yeager used to say in one of the old flight/combat sims "Oh well.. Get back up there and try it again." Anybody who ever played the old classic space game "Elite" may remember with a certain lack of fondness the first times they tried to dock in the spinning slot bay of a Coriolis space station. LOL
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: There is a way I've been implementing in the engine, but support for that is green, and it requires a great deal of art to get right.
I have it on queue already - for now, the small clusters are what the engine can handle :(
As you get closer to implementing asteroid belts, let me know what all this art is that you will need for the feature.
Neskiairti wrote: the reason it would be automated.. is two fold.
aircraft, to pilot them, you need to be licensed.. I don't see a standardized pilot program in vegastrike, nor is there even a tutorial showing you how to properly dock.
Heh, so because the alpha phase game doesn't yet have a tutorial mode, that means that in game you aren't playing as a character named Deucalion with about a decade of experience as a combat pilot.

On the other hand we could say that since the alpha phase game doesn't have automated docking, that that means you must be a licensed pilot or that the station is decently well built.
Space stations are fragile, and if I owned one, I sure as hell wouldn't let some random Joe Schmoe alien dock at it himself without being doubly assured he knows how. this isn't parallel parking. Even cars require certification to use in most countries, which requires training, but not nearly as much as a pilot. The proper comparison would be a hotel with a valet, every dick jane and harry has a space ship, only highly trained professionals operate airplanes.
You're making some simple things much more complex and some complex things much more simple.

No one said untrained Joe's are flying dangerous spacecraft. Astrogation could even be a standard course they start teaching you in school from age 8 to 16 instead of fucking literature. It's science fiction, so we can say that there's a working public school system teaching actually useful courses in the future.

No one said Deucalion (you, the player) is not anything short of a bad ass veteran combat pilot with aerospace licenses up the wazoo.

A station AI doesn't know your ship's modifications and conditions of damage like you do, surrendering to foreign control would be more dangerous than not, unless you are badly injured.

Stations are extremely robust, that's an in game fact. Trying taking one out.

The real threat of your ship is during the beginning of the final approach when you have plenty of distance and time to accelerate to huge speeds. Docking necessarily involves much lower speeds. So the only thing a station should do in the interest of protecting itself is to obliterate ships that are coming in too fast without deviation. Or that have passed the point of no return, where they don't have the thrust output to avoid a high speed collision given their present velocity and proximity.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by segfault »

Slightly getting off topic here but I for one like the ability to bash around trying to wedge my way into a landing bay manually exactly BECAUSE in real life you'd never get to do that. We live in a world of such excesive permits, licenses and approvals that it's almost crippling. VS is my escape. I find it exciting to go blasting off into space with nothing but my (lack of) wits and try to fly/land by the seat of my pants. That is adventure. That is fun to me.
So the only thing a station should do in the interest of protecting itself is to obliterate ships that are coming in too fast without deviation.
Interesting thought though. Would be somewhat comical to receive an incoming transmission from a station threating the user/pilot to change vector/velocity or be shot down lol.
May force even the lowliest station to have heavy weaponry however in order to deal with an incoming capitol ship... which may not be realistic in all situations.
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Re: Docking: automate it.

Post by klauss »

segfault wrote:Interesting thought though. Would be somewhat comical to receive an incoming transmission from a station threating the user/pilot to change vector/velocity or be shot down lol.
May force even the lowliest station to have heavy weaponry however in order to deal with an incoming capitol ship... which may not be realistic in all situations.
It would be fine, but it would also require quite some intelligence from the station AI, which ATM the engine does not support. AIs are mere (somewhat limited) state machines.

And it wouldn't be unrealistic. The same would happen if you try to ram your taker full of flammable oil into a port - only noone actually attempts it, docking authorities stop you and put your ship at the mercy of the port's towing ship long before you're even close enough to start ramming, and in case someone actually did, they wouldn't be able to do much about it - except perhaps military docks.

Automated docking would parallel ship docking there - the towing ship - which is a reality of sea ships. Still, I wouldn't like automated docking. As I said: it would be boring.
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