Radar & ECM

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TBeholder
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Radar & ECM

Post by TBeholder »

A good way to make upgrading both systems useful, but less-than-absolute would be a more realistic^H^H^H believable model:
ECM causes observing ships' radars to report with some degree of error (looking not unlike nebula-induced jitter now), thus AI and autotracking would aim at a wrong spot (still may happen to shot a ghost behind the real target, of course). Perhaps with configurable thresholds of error preventing (at the moment) locking and breaking an established lock.
Of course, units allowed to dock with or are friendly to (at least, the same flightgroup) the protected unit should be allowed to bypass this effect.
Others in certain radius (depends on device) from the protected unit should benefit from ECM too (maybe even a few specialized ECM ships covering their fleet from kinetic missile massacre).

As to the missiles, a simple proximity fuse model may be implemented by defining warheads as weapons and adding a weapon property "damage self" (multiplier, default=0 for normal weapons, something like 2-20 for warheads, just to be sure). This field also may be used later for handling damaged weapons.
This way, a missile seeing an eligible target in range will "attack" with its only weapon, the warhead - and ECM may fool its estimation of the range, so it goes off where it won't do much harm (again, even if fooled out of the range it still may crash into the ship it failed to locate, causing impact damage).
That's only 2 specific modifications.
Last edited by TBeholder on Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by klauss »

I've already got a whole superrealistic model planned and ticketed for inclusion in VS.

Although I see the small modifications you mention as a good improvement, perhaps before that superrealistic model is implemented.

Will have to sleep on the idea.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by TBeholder »

Also, a current hit with beam weapons could allow to bypass ECM (if the object it hits in the plausible vicinity is the true target, i mean).
Would be good to add the third lock indicator, perhaps. Thus making that puny TraceLaser truly scary.
- [Lidar lock!]
- <threatening targets>?
-> Capship KineticMissile
- oh cra... <clannnnng!>
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by klauss »

I don't get your drift... ECM only affects radar and missile lock. If you hit something, you hit something, regardless of ECM.

Or are you referring to receiving shots as countering ECM?

I would buy that for stealth, but ECM is active jamming, whether getting shot reveals your location or not depends greatly on the exact technology being used.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by Neskiairti »

an example would be optical locking.. not so good at extreme range unless it has a very high powered camera.. but image recognition would be immune to active jamming, however if you had something like stealthing, or some sort of chameleon skin, it would be jammed.

and laser guidence btw, would be a form of optical locking, however there isnt much you can do to counter that aside from take out the laser thats locked on to you or some how swallow up all the radience from the laser in to your ship's skin. again cloaking.

some of the fun stuff military can use, is decoy drones that shine at the exact frequencies to look exactly like a ship silhouette to radar.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by klauss »

Neskiairti wrote:an example would be optical locking.. not so good at extreme range unless it has a very high powered camera.. but image recognition would be immune to active jamming, however if you had something like stealthing, or some sort of chameleon skin, it would be jammed.
That's not true. Lasers aimed directly towards the camera, of the proper wavelength, effectively blind the camera.

It's not stealthy, it's the opposite: it's jamming. it's denying your enemy the benefit of automatic & remote sensors.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by Neskiairti »

well you have to match the camera's wavelength, else you arnt going to do much at all. but yes, if you can hit the camera with enough of the proper wavelength you can jam it... though you might be better to just hit it with a damaging laser, if you can hit it. I didnt mention it, since its less jamming than a direct attack on the missile. Thats closer to point defense than anything else.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by klauss »

Actually no, a damaging laser requires a huge power output, while a blinding laser could run continuously with no strain, and it can implement electronic steering and bending, which powerful lasers probably can't afford.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by Neskiairti »

That's not really that true anymore, especially not with the power rating of lasers these days. 10 years ago, yeah, but were producing newer lasers that consume far less power per milliwatt. mainly I'm considering right now the 1amp 1watt 445nm laser that was just made within the last year or two. you only need 40 or 50 watts of light to weaken metal fairly quickly.

now lets consider how one of these cameras work, it is only going to detect the specific wavelength of light emitted by the targeting laser. the lense is going to be made of a material that is transparent to that wavelength but not others. For instance we use germanium on lenses for Infrared.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by klauss »

Well, perhaps damaging for the lens, but certainly not a weaponized laser.

And sensors, faced with that scenario, will most certainly implement countermeasures. I can't think of one yet, but I bet they would find a way to avoid permanent damage.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote:Well, perhaps damaging for the lens, but certainly not a weaponized laser.

And sensors, faced with that scenario, will most certainly implement countermeasures. I can't think of one yet, but I bet they would find a way to avoid permanent damage.
How about thermally armored shutters on your cameras and similarly powerful and accurate lasers that shoot back at the attacking laser weapons?
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by TBeholder »

klauss wrote:I don't get your drift... ECM only affects radar and missile lock.
But if AIs will be given a wrong opponent's position for purpose of aiming, AIs should be fooled for navigation purpose as well, no? Also, how about kinetic missiles? Should they be immune to ECM just because they don't use proximity sensors?
klauss wrote: If you hit something, you hit something, regardless of ECM.
Even considering normal weapons (not tracers) - in case when there's one weapon or all work instantly and propagate the same way, yes. But even shooting bolts, let alone interception course, involves some extrapolation. Hence, unit hits and now have better data to fire something else or ram. And with tracer lasers it's the whole point.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by klauss »

Turbo Beholder wrote:
klauss wrote:I don't get your drift... ECM only affects radar and missile lock.
But if AIs will be given a wrong opponent's position for purpose of aiming, AIs should be fooled for navigation purpose as well, no?
Good point, that could be done rather easily I guess.
Turbo Beholder wrote:Also, how about kinetic missiles? Should they be immune to ECM just because they don't use proximity sensors?
Dumbfires? Of course they should be immune.
To ECM, not to point defenses.
Turbo Beholder wrote:
klauss wrote: If you hit something, you hit something, regardless of ECM.
Even considering normal weapons (not tracers) - in case when there's one weapon or all work instantly and propagate the same way, yes. But even shooting bolts, let alone interception course, involves some extrapolation. Hence, unit hits and now have better data to fire something else or ram. And with tracer lasers it's the whole point.
Yes, but modelling that is incredibly hard. The information you get is only very limited instantaneous information, and as time passes it becomes stale rather quickly. So adding that to an AI wouldn't be easy, and to your own radar even harder.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by TBeholder »

klauss wrote:
Turbo Beholder wrote:Also, how about kinetic missiles? Should they be immune to ECM just because they don't use proximity sensors?
Dumbfires? Of course they should be immune.
To ECM, not to point defenses.
No, Dumbfire causes normal radius-damage in 20 meters radius, it's just not guided. Kinetic interceptors (currently KineticMissile, heavy-capship-missile), are guided, but attack by ramming, not using proximity fuses.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by klauss »

I still think it's safe to assume that dumbfire proximity fuses aren't vulnerable to jamming.

I mean, it would completely change the game's dynamics if ECM could defuse dumbfires. It's enough that they're not guided.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by Deus Siddis »

It would actually be better if dumb fire rockets were impact only; the proximity detonation is unnecessary and they are too powerful anyway, IIRC.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by klauss »

It's not unnecessary. Even air-to-air missiles have proximity detonators, why would a space-to-space missile not have it?

The distances and speeds involved make missing by a few meters rather common.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by Deus Siddis »

Well there is no atmosphere to form a blast wave, though you could use shrapnel. But either way that doesn't work so well against armored targets.

And you might expect guided missiles to be the weapon of choice against thin skinned craft.

But large unguided rockets make more sense being used as body blows against heavier targets like corvettes, heavy turrets on capitals and fortresses or, at closer range, against assault craft.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by TBeholder »

klauss wrote:I still think it's safe to assume that dumbfire proximity fuses aren't vulnerable to jamming.
I mean, it would completely change the game's dynamics if ECM could defuse dumbfires. It's enough that they're not guided.
If its proximity detonation radius will be substantially less than explosion radius, ECM won't do too much. After all, this missile cannot miss because of ECM. :D
Deus Siddis wrote:Well there is no atmosphere to form a blast wave, though you could use shrapnel. But either way that doesn't work so well against armored targets.
True, but while the lack of air takes a good kick from shockwaves it allows fragments to move freely. And a large hit is more likely to harm equipment (like radars and shield emitters). The armor model in VS, sadly, almost nonexistent now, that's bad, yes.
Deus Siddis wrote:And you might expect guided missiles to be the weapon of choice against thin skinned craft.
But large unguided rockets make more sense being used as body blows against heavier targets like corvettes, heavy turrets on capitals and fortresses or, at closer range, against assault craft.
By the way, they have the greatest damage among non-capital missiles and the least explosion radius. :wink:
We also have Kinetic Missile - it doesn't explode, just tries to fly through the target at 2 km/s. :D I'm trying to fiddle with kinetic interceptors lesser than 500 tons, of course...
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by klauss »

re. kinetic missiles, you're talking about flechettes I guess.

Have in mind what shields do to missiles: a flechette would loose its punch when going through a charged shield, but would mostly bypass armor otherwise. High-explosive warheads at lower relative velocities, on the other hand, would get through the shield and impact the armor.

In essence, also think about the gameplay implications (which until now, as I said, are rather good IMHO).
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by Neskiairti »

one of the better missiles to use would be an Xray warhead... essentially the missile is consumed explosively to power a one shot high wattage x-ray laser.
when dealing with space, proximity explosions arnt that devistating without the pressure wave. you get shrapnel sure.. you want something that can produce an equivalent to the pressure wave. (gravity distortion? extreme magnetic pulses? Maybe something that has enough fuel in it to produce a short lived pressure wave from its own mass?)

short ranged, if you can get the missile to penetrate the ship armor, you might get a kill shot.
long range just go for a kinetic, honestly. get enough speed behind it, and a few hundred kilograms of mass can hit with enough force to shadow a nuclear detonation.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by TBeholder »

klauss wrote:re. kinetic missiles, you're talking about flechettes I guess.
Have in mind what shields do to missiles: a flechette would loose its punch when going through a charged shield, but would mostly bypass armor otherwise. High-explosive warheads at lower relative velocities, on the other hand, would get through the shield and impact the armor.
Depending on how the shield works. But either way it have to deal with Newton's 3rd law: another end of any force that stops an incoming mass is applied right to the shield emitters, so the shield's force is limited by emitters' mechanical resilience and can remove only so much momentum from the objects while they move through it... which means the more massive projectile is, the less a shield can do. But then, fragments or submunitions carry much the same total momentum and have a better chance to hit at least partially.
klauss wrote:In essence, also think about the gameplay implications (which until now, as I said, are rather good IMHO).
I don't see most less-than-Heavy missiles in VS as useful. Only used heatseekers to kill a Redeemer before it recharges its shield, just because it's still cheaper than repairing the armor after being in its range. Until i can afford long-range autotrackers, that is. Multiple swarms, on the other hand, are fun. :D
Yeah, then small missiles don't have a lot of fuel and thus retries. And they have to direct-hit actively maneuvering nimble targets they're going to be used against.
Neskiairti wrote:when dealing with space, proximity explosions arnt that devistating without the pressure wave. you get shrapnel sure.. you want something that can produce an equivalent to the pressure wave. (gravity distortion? extreme magnetic pulses? Maybe something that has enough fuel in it to produce a short lived pressure wave from its own mass?)
"Pressure" matters in the air. The ultimate goal is to deliver the kinetic energy. Thus, the main difference is that when expanding vapors lose density, fragments retain it at least locally. But multiple light fragments aren't the same as a few heavy (as in, shotgun blast). Very small fragments aren't too different from a gas shockwave.
As to the shield, mass moving tangentially (with a close explosion it's granted) may be more or less effective in reducing it than in a normal case.
And yes, magnetic pulse is a damaging factor: even if it doesn't hit systems, affecting the armor just before mechanical shock hits it may help.
Neskiairti wrote:short ranged, if you can get the missile to penetrate the ship armor, you might get a kill shot.
...which requires an approach fast enough to pierce, but slow enough to not shatter and/or detonate on the armor. A wide range of approach velocities plus armor is hard to deal with. On the other hand, jet-cumulative and/or magneto-cumulative munitions should go off very close before the target, but fast and short-range proximity sensors can do this.
BTW: a diffraction pattern based sensor may filter out everything in a wide band except its own laser, which would make it quite reliable up to half its coherence length (but not discriminating, so it's not good for frag missiles purpose).
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: Have in mind what shields do to missiles: a flechette would loose its punch when going through a charged shield, but would mostly bypass armor otherwise.
I don't think there is really that much an electromagnetic field is going to be able to do against a fast moving, reasonably massive, non-magnetic projectile.

This seems more like a task for point defense.
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Re: Radar & ECM

Post by TBeholder »

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote: Have in mind what shields do to missiles: a flechette would loose its punch when going through a charged shield, but would mostly bypass armor otherwise.
I don't think there is really that much an electromagnetic field is going to be able to do against a fast moving, reasonably massive, non-magnetic projectile.
This seems more like a task for point defense.
Even by the current in-game text it's not purely electromagnetic field. Whether a projectile is magnetic or not isn't too important for quick interactions, though... unless it's made of a high-frequency ferrite. :wink:
As to the point defence - of course. But there are two boundary cases:
- very nimble (good acceleration) missiles should be very light and thus vulnerable, but good at evasion maneuvers and passing through effective PD area quickly. Also, ECM works both ways.
- very massive missiles should withstand several hits and even after being rendered otherwise non-functional remain incoming dense objects until broken completely. And a thick piece of strong material is harder to tear apart with surface explosions, large-scale deforming forces and anything else. But relatively small jets and fuel tank means it can't have much of deltaV, so it's more a correctable shell (whether initial momentum comes from a cannon or rocket booster is irrelevant) than a guided missile.
While impact-based interceptors can be destructive on any scale, almost anything less than full-profile AKV (which can turn and chase as any other ship) have only one chance to hit and is good mostly against very slow targets. That said, the low limit for AKV = light interceptor/scout ship, more or less.
This also means i wouldn't worry too much - there's enough factors to say it's all in tweakable limits.
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