Ship Type Organization

Talk among developers, and propose and discuss general development planning/tackling/etc... feature in this forum.
Mr. Bane
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Ship Type Organization

Post by Mr. Bane »

While I like VegaStrike (A lot) and I have fun playing it (A lot) there are one or two things that bug me about it.

I'm not really interested in walking around on a planet or ships trafficking in my space (I'll leave that to more able minds to worry about) but I am interested in organization. Organization is key to many things, from programming to web design to even sports.

For instance, here is a list of all the current ship categories:

Code: Select all

Aerospace
Assault
Atmospheric
Battle Cruiser
Battleship
Boarding Craft
Bomber
Capital Escort
Cargo
Carrier
Civilian
Colonization
Commerce Raider
Corvette
Courier
Cruiser
Destroyer
Diplomatic
Dreadnaught
Enforcement
Exploration
Fighter
Frigate
Gunboat
Insystem
Interceptor
Mass Transit
Military
Orbital
Passenger
Patrol
Personal Transport
Racing
Reconnaissance
Resource Gathering
Salvage
Seige
Service
Support
Terraforming
Troop Transport
and then here's the Eve Online ship listing:

Code: Select all

Tech I
Shuttles
Rookie ships
Frigates
Destroyers
Cruisers
Industrial ships
Battlecruisers
Battleships
Mining barges

Tech II
Covert Ops
Stealth Bombers
Electronic Attack ships
Assault ships
Interceptors
Interdictors
Heavy Assault ships
Heavy Interdictors
Logistics Cruisers
Recon Cruisers
Command ships
Black Ops
Marauder ships
Transport ships
Exhumers

Tech III
Capital ships
Freighters
Jump Freighters
Capital Industrial Ship
Dreadnoughts
Carriers
Motherships
Titans
I personally believe VegaStrike's list could be far better organized and classified than it already is. (Note this isn't to say that Eve's is perfect, but there is a linear path players have when thinking about going from A to Z, be it combat, commerce, or mining.)
MC707
Venturer
Venturer
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:18 am
Location: Quito, Ecuador.
Contact:

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by MC707 »

Welcome Mr. Bane. Do you mean disorganization in the wiki? I guess if the admins here authorize it, you could change that. Everyone can support the VS project in any way.
My Machine: OS: Ubuntu 8.10 (intrepid) 64 bit in a 500GB Maxtor HD @ 7200 RPM, Windows Vista PsyChoses Edition 2009 32 bit in a 500GB Samsung HD @ 7200 RPM CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz GPU: nVidia GeForce 9400 GT @ 1024 MB RAM: 3891 MB
Earthlings|The End of the Internet?|FreeWebsite
loki1950
The Shepherd
Posts: 5841
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:37 pm
Location: Ottawa
Contact:

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by loki1950 »

No need for any permission :shock: as anyone who is a member of the forum has edit rights on the wiki 8) just make your proposed categorization on the talk page so the Minister of Information(jackS) who originally conceived our universe and the ship list it's self can comment :wink:

Enjoy the Choice :)
my box::HP Envy i5-6400 @2Q70GHzx4 8 Gb ram/1 Tb(Win10 64)/3 Tb Mint 19.2/GTX745 4Gb acer S243HL K222HQL
Q8200/Asus P5QDLX/8 Gb ram/WD 2Tb 2-500 G HD/GF GT640 2Gb Mint 17.3 64 bit Win 10 32 bit acer and Lenovo ideapad 320-15ARB Win 10/Mint 19.2
Fendorin
Elite Venturer
Elite Venturer
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:01 pm
Location: France, Paris

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Fendorin »

the organization we need i think is more ingame :like forming task force or "squadron"

no?

is realy different to fighting with 10 same ship than a "organized force"
with support gun fighter skirmishing and corvette support weapon + destroyer against corvette.....

then a real tactics not just shoot the one in front of you , other wise vegastrike will become like "space invader"
Mr. Bane
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Mr. Bane »

Tactical formation of organized forces for military expeditions or militia/guerrilla forces is an entirely different subject that I'm not going to touch with a ten foot pole because I think there's a lot bigger things to work on.

One thing my mentor thumps into my head at ever chance when I'm working on Ruby is "Determine storage then determine use."

If I remember correctly the spreadsheets for ship data actually include ship classification. Is that right?
Mr. Bane
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Mr. Bane »

Ok, pulled from the unit.csv file (And cut down via setunion):

Code: Select all

BOMBER
CAPITAL
CARRIER
ESCORTCAP
FIGHTER
INERT
INTERCEPTOR
SCAVENGER
SHUTTLE
SUPPORT
Mr. Bane
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Mr. Bane »

Triple post!

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... YJMM-DcQaQ


Made it a little easier to read, will probably fill it out as the day goes on, but I think this level of classification (Akin to United States Naval classifications) might help people figure out the specific roles/abilities/next step for ship purchasing.

Information is key and all that.
loki1950
The Shepherd
Posts: 5841
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:37 pm
Location: Ottawa
Contact:

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by loki1950 »

I believe that the role specified in the units.csv defines which of the ai routines is available for each ship so the classification may have coding ramifications :shock:

Enjoy the Choice :)
my box::HP Envy i5-6400 @2Q70GHzx4 8 Gb ram/1 Tb(Win10 64)/3 Tb Mint 19.2/GTX745 4Gb acer S243HL K222HQL
Q8200/Asus P5QDLX/8 Gb ram/WD 2Tb 2-500 G HD/GF GT640 2Gb Mint 17.3 64 bit Win 10 32 bit acer and Lenovo ideapad 320-15ARB Win 10/Mint 19.2
Mr. Bane
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Mr. Bane »

I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem to copy the AI routines with different names?

IE, fighter renamed to frigate, copied to a new routine named Black Ops, ect.

I'd be willing to do any data entry work to make it happen.
Turbo
ISO Party Member
ISO Party Member
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:54 am
Location: TX, USA
Contact:

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Turbo »

To be useful to the player, the vessel types should be a list that is understandable enough to allow the player to make an informed purchase. The list is too long for that presently. Here is a list based on what the world's navies use for their classifications. While it is long, only the first half or so would be fun to play in the game:

Carrier (capship that can carry and launch fighters, relies on other ships to protect it)
Cruiser (medium combat capship)
Destroyer (large combat capship)
Frigate (anti-fighter capship)
Corvette (small combat capship)
Fighter (more on types of fighter below)
Minesweeper (lots of light turrets, probably)
Minelayer (maybe any cargo ship could be configured for this?)
Amphibious/Landing/Boarding
Command/Communications
Hospital
Cargo
Tenders / Service (flying maintenance bay)
Tugs
Research

Current fighter classifications seem inconsistent, for example the Gawain is listed as a heavy even though its size and armament are medium. Fighters could be either classified by size:
* light
* medium
* heavy

or by role:
* recon / surveillance (light, fast, preferably with a cloak)
* interceptor (attack other fighters; light or medium size, fast, anti-fighter weapons)
* bomber (attack installations or capships; heavy size with more missiles)
* multirole (more than one of the above)

It's still a long list, but is simple enough that someone wanting to buy a ship knows what to look for.
Turbo

There are two speeds in combat: stopped, and as fast as you can go. Unless you run into something, going fast keeps you alive more often than stopping.
MC707
Venturer
Venturer
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:18 am
Location: Quito, Ecuador.
Contact:

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by MC707 »

Turbo wrote:* recon / surveillance (light, fast, preferably with a cloak)
* interceptor (attack other fighters; light or medium size, fast, anti-fighter weapons)
* bomber (attack installations or capships; heavy size with more missiles)
* multirole (more than one of the above)
Shouldn't there be a "capship" one too?
My Machine: OS: Ubuntu 8.10 (intrepid) 64 bit in a 500GB Maxtor HD @ 7200 RPM, Windows Vista PsyChoses Edition 2009 32 bit in a 500GB Samsung HD @ 7200 RPM CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz GPU: nVidia GeForce 9400 GT @ 1024 MB RAM: 3891 MB
Earthlings|The End of the Internet?|FreeWebsite
Turbo
ISO Party Member
ISO Party Member
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:54 am
Location: TX, USA
Contact:

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Turbo »

MC707 wrote:Shouldn't there be a "capship" one too?
Yes and no. Capships also have roles -- carrier, combat, anti-fighter, etc as listed before. But there is no single role or mission type that can be adequately described with the word "capship." The point, whether we list our ships by classification or by role, is that when I go to buy a ship, I should be able to instantly determine what kind of ship to buy based on my flying style and the mission types I want to perform.
Turbo

There are two speeds in combat: stopped, and as fast as you can go. Unless you run into something, going fast keeps you alive more often than stopping.
MC707
Venturer
Venturer
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:18 am
Location: Quito, Ecuador.
Contact:

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by MC707 »

hmmm I know what you mean, but I definitely can't fit a capship in one of the roles you put up there. Not even in multirole.
My Machine: OS: Ubuntu 8.10 (intrepid) 64 bit in a 500GB Maxtor HD @ 7200 RPM, Windows Vista PsyChoses Edition 2009 32 bit in a 500GB Samsung HD @ 7200 RPM CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz GPU: nVidia GeForce 9400 GT @ 1024 MB RAM: 3891 MB
Earthlings|The End of the Internet?|FreeWebsite
Rabiator
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:47 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Rabiator »

An important part of Eve's ship type organization are the various tech levels, with large differences in how to obtain the ships (easy manufacturing for Tech I, complex manufacturing with materials from PvP space for Tech II, and even more difficult for Tech III).
I think the distinction is rather artificial, and while it works for EvE, I think it really needs a MMO with a player driven economy to work well. So unless Vega Strike gets there, it might be a bad idea to duplicate tech levels.
Mr. Bane
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Mr. Bane »

I wouldn't want to copy the Tech trees, like I said it was only as an example.

Greater and more organized classification attempts can lead to easier play, and ultimately less work when you start really focusing on ships.

Class (Size), Role, and Chassis Type are all valid ways I would want to classify something.

Heavy Fighter Cruiser, for instance.

Capital Support Carrier, another.
Shark
Confed Special Operative
Confed Special Operative
Posts: 360
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:34 am
Contact:

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Shark »

I'd just like to add that I like the EVE list, as it also allows you to easily identify the type (and roughly the expense) of the equipment needed to outfit the ship. I.e. if the items lists in shops were sorted in a similar manner than it would make searching for matching upgrades easier.
Mr. Bane
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Mr. Bane »

Whew, sorry, stuff got reeeeaaally complicated real life but things have settled down and I'm wondering if there are people willing to talk about this?
loki1950
The Shepherd
Posts: 5841
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:37 pm
Location: Ottawa
Contact:

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by loki1950 »

No problem we all have obligations 8) that can take precedent at any time and part of any FOSS project is juggling available time.

Enjoy the Choice :)
my box::HP Envy i5-6400 @2Q70GHzx4 8 Gb ram/1 Tb(Win10 64)/3 Tb Mint 19.2/GTX745 4Gb acer S243HL K222HQL
Q8200/Asus P5QDLX/8 Gb ram/WD 2Tb 2-500 G HD/GF GT640 2Gb Mint 17.3 64 bit Win 10 32 bit acer and Lenovo ideapad 320-15ARB Win 10/Mint 19.2
denyasis
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:31 am

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by denyasis »

Mr. Bane;

Just a tiny bit of errata:
The list you posted from the Units.csv is the Combat Role. As Loki Mentioned, Combat Role is an internal variable used by the AI. It has no bearing on what the player sees when purchasing a ship at a base. The classification system at a base (faction - Light/Medium/Heavy/Milspec) is located somewhere else (I don't know where - haven't looked). Looking at the rest of the replies it seems most people are talking about what you see at the base.

I also agree with you that a better base side organizational system might be needed. Perhaps Ship Type - Faction/Milspec variant. If the Player wants a "light fighter" or something - they can pull up a list of all the stock ships in that class for comparision instead of having to navigate by faction. Faction/Milspec variants would be next in teh tree.
whatch1
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:14 am
Location: Western MA

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by whatch1 »

units.csv has gaping holes in its organization I can't even isolate planets or base types in a sort. although the milspec pakages are all there, what goes in one is not, never entered i suspect. there are still dozens of fix me entrys, but i dont know what to put there

One file to find them all, One File to rule them all, and in the darkness hide them

don't get me started about "the cargo imports" field there is no food at the ag stations or biodiverse worlds, the mines don't produce ores, the shipyard offer no profit to ship alloys to them.

can someone tell why thier are bulk seeds at the asteroid mining stations or livestock on a relay station.

Bill
Machine: P4 prescott 3.2 Ghz, 2Gb ddr ram, 2 80g seagate sata drives in raiad stripe config nvidia 6600 gt oc card sidwinder pro FF2
Mr. Bane
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Mr. Bane »

As Loki Mentioned, Combat Role is an internal variable used by the AI. It has no bearing on what the player sees when purchasing a ship at a base.
Well the thing is ship classification is a really large part of determining what a Naval Vessel (And space ships would be a part of the navy) does. For instance, no communications and recon ship is larger than say a Corvette. Likewise a flag ship is usually a Carrier or Destroyer.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Deus Siddis »

Mr. Bane wrote:Class (Size), Role, and Chassis Type are all valid ways I would want to classify something.

Heavy Fighter Cruiser, for instance.

Capital Support Carrier, another.
I really like this modular system for classifications, it get's my vote. :)
Mr. Bane
Merchant
Merchant
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by Mr. Bane »

If someone gives me the tools and points me at where I need to swing, I'll hammer this out in my spare time.
denyasis
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:31 am

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by denyasis »

I see, I was just pointing out that the "combat Role" column was internal - the names/classifications used there are totally arbitrary. They could be Feline breed names for all it matters, lol
krainboltgreene
Star Pilot
Star Pilot
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:07 pm

Re: Ship Type Organization

Post by krainboltgreene »

I started this thread more than a year ago, back when I was just starting to figure out how Linux worked. Now I find myself looking at Vega Strike again after I've become a professional programmer.

Quite a different view.
Post Reply