Upgrades, cargo and expendable resources

[TBeholder]

1) Difference between cargo, upgrade and salvage is desirable. Suppose Llama don't have mount for torpedo. But why it cannot transport the same torpedo in hold ?!
And it's good to have spare ECM or shield system, or weapon in hold... just for case. If something will happen to your own and repair bot cannot can fix it, maybe it could be replaced.
As a side note, salvage is not the same as cargo neatly packed in containers and accurately delivered up to shock mounting in hold. It was beaten and shaken, and a bit burned on that corner.
1.1) re-mounting missiles to pylons is a good option. As long as it requires turning jets off (maybe, dropping shields as well) and waiting a bit, it cannot be done in combat anyway, and it requires bot to perform trick, but it would be handy anyway...

More along FFE line:
2) Guns consumes ammo while shooting. Reactor consumes fuel while it generates energy.
Both have their own reserves but can be reloaded from hold (theoretically). Why not to use some way to generalize this ? Then more can be done with the same tool. E.g.: sublimative cooling expends water. Repair and lifesupport perhaps need Fuel_Cell. Rlaan version needs CCBB plus BioApplicator and BioRemodeler for repair. .
2.1) Install automatic feed system for each gun and launcher and reload on the fly. Yes, like in real military ship, and for each of turrets too. But this will be major ship modification, not something which can be plugged in or out. So it's not removable (but still can be damaged), takes considerable volume in hull and price is steep.

3) device can have assigned cargo types. Then repair bots must expend certain cargo to repair specific systems, Hull_Patches for hull and appropriate alloy to repair armor. The same may appear as a salvage when unit or subunit is destroyed. Docks require aerospace equipment, lifesupport needs Atmospheric_Scrubbers, repair system needs Assembly_Tools and Welding_Lasers. If it can reanimate capship in sensible time it probably requires Robot_Workers too. Nuclear_Pods or Fusion_Injectors for reactors, computers for turrets and radar, AI_Cores for repair AI. Lasers may need certain gases. Throw in handful of gears, metals and suchlike, and in-flight repair is not easy and free anymore, though still faster and easier than on alien base.

[safemode]

For max ammo expansion, it would be better to just offer "upgrades" to ammunition reserves that would take up cargo hold space. So if you want to just go all ammo, screw trading, you can keep buying expansions, giving you insane room for buying ammo for guns.

Transporting weapons is done mostly under the general weapons cargo you can buy in the trading portions of bases. You dont buy specific weapons to trade. Buying specific weapons like that would just be too tedius.


Salvage is the term for Cargo that's been left in space after a ship's destruction, not parts of the ship. Hence, it's all in neat containers. The textures for them are just basic, as always, if someone wants to give them damage textures and such, that would be cool.


as for the repair droids. having to transport around all that material to fix things is not practical. More likely what droids will be able to do is patch using either the broken material at the site, or a generic compound. Repaired things by the droid ought to be much weaker than getting things repaired at bases. Repair droids should be for emergencies, not replacements for the repair shop.

[TBeholder]

For max ammo expansion, it would be better to just offer "upgrades" to ammunition reserves that would take up cargo hold space. So if you want to just go all ammo, screw trading, you can keep buying expansions, giving you insane room for buying ammo for guns.

Why not just in hold ? Besides, this requires to keeping reloading system/bot in state other than "blasted to slag".

Transporting weapons is done mostly under the general weapons cargo [...] Buying specific weapons like that would just be too tedius.

Usually it's not needed , but if you noticed that EMP torpedos are rare, and want to put aside handful instead of returning or searching when you'll buy big ship on next planet... And there's always question of reserve. As old good Stilgar said, "I know there are spares among us. Where are the spares? Are we a troop together or a band of savages?"

Salvage is the term for Cargo that's been left in space after a ship's destruction, not parts of the ship.

At least in .4.3 my own upgrades turned to "Space_Salvage" pieces, when i pressed "continue" after destruction i even picked up some, which IMO is good idea... as long as it happens not only to player, not every time and salvage is in ugly enough condition.

Hence, it's all in neat containers. The textures for them are just basic, as always

Of course, but when cargo containers are standart, it's normal, while salvageable wreckage should look more like a mongrels of HDD controller circuit board and half-molten iron stove.

having to transport around all that material to fix things is not practical.

It depends on specific situation. And while having second ship in parts is a bit strange, some patches and spares for vital components is another matter. Which ones are vital, of course, depends on specific situation as well. After all, prolonged wandering in region where no friendly bases are available can make interesting survival-type side adventure in itself.

More likely what droids will be able to do is patch using either the broken material at the site, or a generic compound. Repaired things by the droid ought to be much weaker than getting things repaired at bases. Repair droids should be for emergencies, not replacements for the repair shop.

With this i agree completely, and it seems we have much the same point: lowly emergency repair systems should not regenerate anything completely, for free and indefinitely (using spare parts option, those should be limited to standard emergency kits for their standard patches anyway). And universal complete repair is for motherships and bases, not interceptors (both because such docks and workshops are quite unlike pocket first-aid kits and because interceptors don't carry tons of spare parts, while for mothership such trifles are not burdensome).
However, line between quick minimal patching and full dock repair is vague. There's also medium-to-large ships. If it can carry that interceptor in cargo bay, it can have something better. Not as good as a real drydock workshop teeming with bots and engineers, but still much better than whatever could be crammed into interceptor.

[safemode]

because the hold is just that, a hold. For the game engine to know that there is anything usable in the hold, you'd first have to give it permission (say you were really trading munitions and had no interest in using it for ammo for yourself), and it would have to be unpacked and brought over to the gun and installed manually, since all cargo is boxed. It just doesn't make much practical sense, when we can have a mechanism such as just expanding the ammo reserve and taking up cargo space to do it. Sort of like how we can increase capacitance by buying bigger caps and such.

So that's why i dont think meddling through your cargo hold for realtime use is very practical game-wise. Instead, what you should be able to do is sell excess ammo-weapons as if they were cargo if you no longer needed those levels of reserves. With only a slightly lower price than if it was all brand new in the box.

That kind of setup is much more in line with how things currently work, thus is less likely to require rewriting how the game works.


Trading (cargo) weapons on that level of individuality is something that may come to pass when we get rid of the whole "trading bulk goods" situation. There's no reason why small ships would trade grains or ore or anything that a base would only need on a massive scale. But specialty trading would be.


The problem with micromanaging is always that it's a niche that requires extreme complexity to maintain. Often at the detriment of long term playability.

[TBeholder]

Ah, silly me. Forgot to mention main: propellant for jets.

2.2 ) "Every action requires a reaction" ©, but why mixing reactor's fuel and thruster's working medium ? Reactor, of course, consumes small quantity of highly energetic fuel (expensive), while jets use considerable mass of matter, but for plasma jets said it can be even water (usually less expensive, and can be replaced when it is). Which does not mix well with uranium and mixes really bad with lithium.

because the hold is just that, a hold.

Well, for "true" feeding systems (military-type conveyors), i agree: they must work from magazines. Not from main hold. And there's question "how universal this feeding system is?", i.e. what if you want change weapon on the mount it feeds ?..

For the game engine to know that there is anything usable in the hold, you'd first have to give it permission (say you were really trading munitions and had no interest in using it for ammo for yourself)

If it's done by rearming bot, it needs not just permission, but express order, like "Rearm (=activate system: bot) [choose mount] [choose ammo type]".

and it would have to be unpacked and brought over to the gun and installed manually, since all cargo is boxed.

...which requires time, and it may turn out to be quite unwise to kick in 5g while bot carries unpacked missile somewhere inside ship (or even on ship's skin). That's why it needs express order...

It just doesn't make much practical sense

Ability to replace spent missiles without flying all the way to base "doesn't make much practical sense" ?!

when we can have a mechanism such as just expanding the ammo reserve and taking up cargo space to do it.

So there's 3 ways, but they have different properties:
1) rearmer (variant of loader bot) — one-for-all small, universal, but very limited in performance (slow, acceleration-sensitive). Note that it can reload internal or mount magazine just as well as missile.
2) feed conveyor — reliable and fast, but it's serious modification of ship, eats volume and likely irremovable. Feeds from dedicated feed room (internal magazine).
3) extra ammo at mount — handy, but isn't there some good reason why weapon haven't it to begin with ? And extra mass strapped on mount can encumber autotracking servo, after all.
But while it makes sense for guns, does not "heavy-missile pylon with 3 extra ammo" somehow looks more like 4 heavy-missile pylons ?

All in all, different combinations of ship, weapons and career calls for different variants.

So that's why i dont think meddling through your cargo hold for realtime use is very practical game-wise.
Instead, what you should be able to do is sell excess ammo-weapons as if they were cargo if you no longer needed those levels of reserves.

Loading/unloading/whatever could be done exactly the same way: via interaction between your own hold and upgrade list. Only there could be different buttons when you're in dock and in space.

That kind of setup is much more in line with how things currently work, thus is less likely to require rewriting how the game works. [...] The problem with micromanaging is always that it's a niche that requires extreme complexity to maintain.

My point is: if something will be done, let it be done in most universal (flexible) way, then it will be done once and used many times. All i want is making more things possible. For the record, i'm against making almost anything as specific feature-oriented hardcoded functions, partially because it's bound to annoy the hell out of modders soon afterwards. Off topic:
...as Age of Wonders 2 hardcoded things did annoyed the hell out of me.

But it's about rearming, and what about that "Naval ECM in fancy box"© ? In addition to issues of re-equipping and having mothership arming interceptors/drones, some little, but proud planet could order such things and PC could have mission to acquire and bring them N torpedoes, or turrets, or something like.

[safemode]

If you need crazy munitions, then you buy a military ship, or modify your ship to hold more munitions.

The only way i'd see the utilization of cargo to restock the ship in-flight would be creating a long delay between reloading. Like on the order of a minute for ammo, and a couple minutes for missiles (1 at a time).

Not only to simulate the time to unpack and load up, but to retain the balance of the ships. In no way possible should it be more advantageous in a military sense, to get a cargo ship over a military ship for combat.

[TBeholder]

The only way i'd see the utilization of cargo to restock the ship in-flight would be creating a long delay between reloading. Like on the order of a minute for ammo, and a couple minutes for missiles (1 at a time).

Since jettisoning cargo container from hold is almost instant action, bot should go out very quickly. Unpacking, walking to mount and mounting is another matter, of course. Sole problem is that as it is, player has almost nothing to do in drift. But if player could at least read news while adrift for repair and rearming...

Not only to simulate the time to unpack and load up, but to retain the balance of the ships.

Balance keeps itself, with in-world considerations. E.g. note that stationary orbit makes ship very vulnerable.

In no way possible should it be more advantageous in a military sense, to get a cargo ship over a military ship for combat.

Military ship is almost whatever equipped as military. Like having fast and safe feed conveyors, and in no way clumsy metal bug or two can outrun them (though it's still better than nothing).
On the other hand, heavy fighter (like Dostoevsky) with handful of spare torpedoes and rearming bot in hold is definitely "military ship", even though it's not big enough to be outfitted like cruiser.

[ThinkSome]

I second this proposal. It is fairly irritating that I can carry only 2 advtorpedo in a Franklin which are somewhat rare outside of aera space, but on the other hand I have 300m^3 of cargo hold sitting empty.

The basic variant of being able to buy specific weapons as cargo and then transport them with you to be sold and then bought back as an upgrade should be fairly easy to do. I just haven't found the toggle that blocks weapons from being offered as cargo. Any tips?

As far as re-arming in space goes: yes, you should be able to rearm while stationary. Either by repair bots (slow) or EVA (slower).

Further, ships could have INTERNAL and EXTERNAL mounts. Internal ones would e.g. have the advantage of being easily reloadable from hold without having to stop, perhaps even with auto-feed.

[TBeholder]

Further, ships could have INTERNAL and EXTERNAL mounts. Internal ones would e.g. have the advantage of being easily reloadable from hold without having to stop, perhaps even with auto-feed.

Mounts are implemented as internal or external… sort of.
xyscale and zscale properties are used to draw a weapon model, so set to 0 for internal mount, to something >0 for an external mount (theoretically it should be just 1.0, as the gun models should be made to scale);
volume limits how much ammunition you can squeeze there;
ammo can be explicitly set to 1 for a missile pylon, then volume of various missiles does not matter, there’s still only one.
What’s not implemented: some way for the upgrade engine to recognize it, so that it could offer different options. Such as relevant mount tags or flags (like for tracker servos or tractor reinforcement).

[ThinkSome]

Interesting, so the basics are already there.

Conceptually, what I would like is to make a large ammo drum or rack (bullets,missiles,whatever) in cargo hold, and then connect it with launcher/gun via a feed belt. Of course, the drum and the revolving-door or some other type of connection on both sides of armor would be much heavier than just a small external mount. Internal ammo holds are over a century old concept used IRL.

I am also disappointed at how easy it is to take out targets with missiles. 1 heatseeker per hyena / 1 torpedo per capship is in most cases enough. I would expect way more ships to have WAY more Point Defence Turrets, basically turrets meant to intercept incoming ordnance. I suppose this would become a much larger problem once/if multiplayer gets taken seriously.

As for pylons... it should be possible to have them welded on, aftermarket. Plus, there should be adaptors to carry a lighter class of whatever on each mount. I think I patched these things in a while ago. However, it should also be possible to carry more of something if two of that something would fit into the allocated space. Such as mounting two smaller missiles in place of one larger.