Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

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TBeholder
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Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by TBeholder »

How about more hardpoints be made rocket-capable, but:
  • The rocket guns themselves would have worse RoF, making them just one more sort of guns that don't consume energy, but have relatively bulky (yet fairly cheap) ammo.
    Far from useless - on interceptors this frees reactor power for shields, and e.g. Vendetta would still be fairly impressive with 8x autotracking rocket guns and good magazines, but... nothing to be overexcited about either.
  • Dedicated "rocket pods" proper should be turned into banks - with amount of individual launchers in a bank and their magazine sizes varying per ship, thus better customizing weapon balance.
    This would let rocket-oriented ships really hose the target with rockets - making sure that interceptors are even more of "glass cannon" type, and rocket pods are not worthless even on bombers (that tend to carry fun stuff like 4x Heavy hardpoints + 2x or more bays of Heavy missiles). This would also make them more resistant to critical hits and thus quite viable in a much "rougher" setup.
  • Some thought needs to be put into the issue of mount upgrades (both autotracking and tractor capability) for weapon banks.
    Though until the format update "one-fits-all" (everything is just slaved to the "visible" hardpoint) solution is okay, IMO.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

What use case do you have in mind?

Because rocket pods in airplanes, at least, are usually limited to CAS, and I can imagine no similar role in space.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by TBeholder »

Well, there are vessels with dedicated "special-missile" (rocket) mounts, Pacifier even was advertised with rocket pods as a built-in feature. It's both taken into account in the concept (interceptors packing more heat for a limited time, with their small reactor size) and reflected in ship models.

CAS sort of rocket pods in VS terms would be a variant "rocket gun" for a light-missile hardpoint.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

But missile hardpoints can be guided, whereas bolt ones can't. A rocket pod of CAS style usually holds unguided rockets, and I don't see how that could work in space where distances make the chance of hitting anything with a low-refire rocket pod quite slim.

Pacifier-style rocket racks are more MW-style than CAS-style. Lots of guided rockets in flight, very tough to spoof or intercept, very high likelihood of fatal hits.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by TBeholder »

klauss wrote:But missile hardpoints can be guided, whereas bolt ones can't.
:?: How so? It's not even the opposite - any hardpoint can be autotracking.
klauss wrote: A rocket pod of CAS style usually holds unguided rockets, and I don't see how that could work in space where distances make the chance of hitting anything with a low-refire rocket pod quite slim.
With one low-refire rocket gun, yes, though autotracking helps. A salvo of 8 autotracking guns? Better. A whole bank of them, though? From what is painted on models - e.g. Progeny has a pair of 3x5, so if one tube's RoF is 1 RPS, two arrays give 30 RPS total, which isn't bad at all, compared to energy-consuming guns.

Self-contained pods may be fast-firing, it's just not something that can be easily installed into gun mount, only on a missile pylon. Also, perhaps it's better to make them discardable (no ammo in goods at all - just like with Stormfire now).
klauss wrote: Pacifier-style rocket racks are more MW-style than CAS-style. Lots of guided rockets in flight, very tough to spoof or intercept, very high likelihood of fatal hits.
Which technically is a bank of rocket tubes, individually rather slow-loading, but in bulk firing pretty fast. Even unguided, it works as a spray-and-pray system.
Also, the way it's implemented now, spreading mounts themselves would give a little scattering and thus slightly raise hit probability over "it's maneuvered out of the place where ITTS pointed everything at once".
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

TBeholder wrote:
klauss wrote:But missile hardpoints can be guided, whereas bolt ones can't.
:?: How so? It's not even the opposite - any hardpoint can be autotracking.
Guided != autotracking. Autotracking aims, but that accounts only for exit velocity. Guided rockets can make course corrections, albeit smaller than missiles'.

TBeholder wrote:
klauss wrote: A rocket pod of CAS style usually holds unguided rockets, and I don't see how that could work in space where distances make the chance of hitting anything with a low-refire rocket pod quite slim.
With one low-refire rocket gun, yes, though autotracking helps. A salvo of 8 autotracking guns? Better. A whole bank of them, though? From what is painted on models - e.g. Progeny has a pair of 3x5, so if one tube's RoF is 1 RPS, two arrays give 30 RPS total, which isn't bad at all, compared to energy-consuming guns.
Yeaaano. I think it's probably an order magnitude or two slower. Think 0.1 RPS, and that's a rather fast rocket. Even rocket pods that have no autoreload to make them slow, they just can't handle the heat of 1 rocket per second. It's a lot of heat. Worse of all in space, where you don't have air to cool you down.
TBeholder wrote:Self-contained pods may be fast-firing, it's just not something that can be easily installed into gun mount, only on a missile pylon. Also, perhaps it's better to make them discardable (no ammo in goods at all - just like with Stormfire now).
But I'll grant you that. They can have a high refire rate as a group, if they have enough tubes.
TBeholder wrote:
klauss wrote: Pacifier-style rocket racks are more MW-style than CAS-style. Lots of guided rockets in flight, very tough to spoof or intercept, very high likelihood of fatal hits.
Which technically is a bank of rocket tubes, individually rather slow-loading, but in bulk firing pretty fast. Even unguided, it works as a spray-and-pray system.
Also, the way it's implemented now, spreading mounts themselves would give a little scattering and thus slightly raise hit probability over "it's maneuvered out of the place where ITTS pointed everything at once".
I'll even extend this to blanket tactics. That hadn't occurred to me earlier, but a rocket can carry a fragmentation payload that can cover a rather big volume in space (fragments don't slow down). So it could work well to blanket an area: fire lots of unguided rockets in varying directions with varying fuses, have them blow up flak-like, spreading death ahead of you while you aim your torpedoes or whatever.

However, this still cannot be done with BOLT weapons, since bolt weapons have no concept of deliverable payload, AFAIR. That's also the sole realm of MISSILE weapons. We could add support for it, and for spread since we're at it (making bolts not follow a straight line, but randomly shift directions, simulating stumbling self-propelled ordinance).
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by TBeholder »

klauss wrote:
TBeholder wrote:
klauss wrote:But missile hardpoints can be guided, whereas bolt ones can't.
:?: How so? It's not even the opposite - any hardpoint can be autotracking.
Guided != autotracking. Autotracking aims, but that accounts only for exit velocity. Guided rockets can make course corrections, albeit smaller than missiles'.
That was about rockets... Though making banks work with lock would be kind of fun, too.
klauss wrote:
TBeholder wrote: With one low-refire rocket gun, yes, though autotracking helps. A salvo of 8 autotracking guns? Better. A whole bank of them, though? From what is painted on models - e.g. Progeny has a pair of 3x5, so if one tube's RoF is 1 RPS, two arrays give 30 RPS total, which isn't bad at all, compared to energy-consuming guns.
Yeaaano. I think it's probably an order magnitude or two slower. Think 0.1 RPS, and that's a rather fast rocket. Even rocket pods that have no autoreload to make them slow, they just can't handle the heat of 1 rocket per second. It's a lot of heat. Worse of all in space, where you don't have air to cool you down.
Maybe, but again, compared to normal guns?..
klauss wrote:I'll even extend this to blanket tactics. That hadn't occurred to me earlier, but a rocket can carry a fragmentation payload that can cover a rather big volume in space (fragments don't slow down). So it could work well to blanket an area: fire lots of unguided rockets in varying directions with varying fuses, have them blow up flak-like,
Well, that's how it started, didn't it? Air-to-Air rockets, that is.
klauss wrote: spreading death ahead of you while you aim your torpedoes or whatever. However, this still cannot be done with BOLT weapons, since bolt weapons have no concept of deliverable payload, AFAIR. That's also the sole realm of MISSILE weapons.
Yup. Anti-missile use should be here, too - once it's possible. And it fits ships that already carry these (Interceptor and Bomber classes).
klauss wrote: We could add support for it, and for spread since we're at it (making bolts not follow a straight line, but randomly shift directions, simulating stumbling self-propelled ordinance).
I proposed handling basic events simply by gluing weapons effects to each other back when?.. :wink: All we'd need is onFired/onHitSolid/onHitShield/onExpired and we'll have proper warheads, timed fuses, bells and whistles, and whatnot.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

TBeholder wrote:
klauss wrote: We could add support for it, and for spread since we're at it (making bolts not follow a straight line, but randomly shift directions, simulating stumbling self-propelled ordinance).
I proposed handling basic events simply by gluing weapons effects to each other back when?.. :wink: All we'd need is onFired/onHitSolid/onHitShield/onExpired and we'll have proper warheads, timed fuses, bells and whistles, and whatnot.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by pheonixstorm »

Rocket artillery in space hehe
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by TBeholder »

Well, yeah. It's already a part of the game and setting (down to Pacifier ads), so may as well try to do it right?
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by pheonixstorm »

Unguided rockets should be more of a support weapon used against slow moving targets, planets, or for overwhelming a orbital facilities PD weapons before firing off the primary torpedos or anti-cap missiles.

Now small guided rocket batteries/pods as a single shot weapon (or limited shots) would make more sense as an offensive weapon for most space craft.

If we could get the radar setup for it I would like to see something like the radar used by the F-14 Tomcat. Multiple target locks for guided missiles/rockets. That would be nice to see for an interceptor. Then again we really need this ability for turrets. On larger craft the radar system should be able to handle multiple targets then give each weapon turret or rocket/missile battery a separate target.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

pheonixstorm wrote:If we could get the radar setup for it I would like to see something like the radar used by the F-14 Tomcat. Multiple target locks for guided missiles/rockets. That would be nice to see for an interceptor. Then again we really need this ability for turrets. On larger craft the radar system should be able to handle multiple targets then give each weapon turret or rocket/missile battery a separate target.
Actually, I was thinking F-16 Falcon III. If you ever played it, it had one of the most realistic radar systems ever. With that game, I learned just how interesting radars could be.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by loki1950 »

Have a look at "Lock On"some time(their's a demo)it has passive senors on the Russian craft and AWAC support for both NATO and Russian planes makes for very complex missions if you like that 8)


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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

loki1950 wrote:Have a look at "Lock On"some time(their's a demo)it has passive senors on the Russian craft and AWAC support for both NATO and Russian planes makes for very complex missions if you like that 8)


Enjoy the Choice :)
I can only find demos for Flaming Cliffs 3, but not Modern Air Combat. If you have a link... ;)
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by loki1950 »

I got it on a mag CD liked it then bought the game Flaming Cliffs 3 is the latest of the series the planes should have been updated as well as Ubisofts latest version of their engine so try it as I have feeling that the old version has been dropped and purged from the net :twisted:

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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

loki1950 wrote:I got it on a mag CD liked it then bought the game Flaming Cliffs 3 is the latest of the series the planes should have been updated as well as Ubisofts latest version of their engine so try it as I have feeling that the old version has been dropped and purged from the net :twisted:

Enjoy the Choice :)
No, flaming cliffs specifically says it's an update of the old one and it still needs the old one to run.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

Well, in youtube it looks kinda like the "simple" mode of F16 Falcon 3. F16 F3 had a "full-realistic" mode that went bonkers, even with a fully detailed air-to-ground mode that led me to research radars.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by pheonixstorm »

Don't know the specs for the actual F-16 or F-15

Here is the wiki entry for the AIM-54 Phoenix and AWG-9 Radar
wikipedia wrote:The AIM-54/AWG-9 combination was the first to have multiple track capability (up to 24 targets) and launch (up to 6 Phoenixes can be launched nearly simultaneously); the large 1,000 lb (500 kg) missile is equipped with a conventional warhead. The AWG-9 radar system carried by the F-111B and F-14 Tomcat was one of largest and most powerful ever fitted to a fighter.

On the F-14, the 4 missiles can be carried under the fuselage tunnel attached to special aerodynamic pallets, plus 2 under glove stations. A full load of 6 Phoenix missiles and the unique launch rails weigh in at over 8,000 lb (3,600 kg), about twice the weight of Sparrows, so it was more common to carry a mixed load of 4 Phoenix, 2 Sparrow and 2 Sidewinder missiles.

Before the introduction of the Phoenix missile, most other US aircraft relied on the smaller, less-expensive AIM-7 Sparrow; classified as a Medium Range Missile (MRM). Guidance for the Sparrow required that the launching aircraft use its radar to continuously illuminate a single target for the missile's "passive" seeker to track, or guidance would be lost. This method meant the aircraft no longer had a search capability while supporting the launched Sparrow, effectively reducing situational awareness.

The Tomcat's AWG-9 radar was capable of tracking up to 24 targets in Track-While-Scan mode, with the AWG-9 selecting up to six priority targets for potential launch by the AIM-54. The pilot or Radar Intercept Officer (RIO) could then launch the AIM-54 Phoenix missiles when launch parameters were met. The large Tactical Information Display (TID) in the RIO's cockpit gave an unprecedented amount of information to the aircrew (the pilot had the ability to monitor the RIO's display) and, importantly, the AWG-9 could continually search and track multiple targets after Phoenix missiles were launched, thereby maintaining situational awareness of the battlespace.

Link-4 datalink capability allowed US Navy Tomcats to share information with the E-2C Hawkeye AEW aircraft, and during Desert Shield in 1990, the Link-4A was introduced and allowed the Tomcats to have a fighter-to-fighter datalink capability, further enhancing overall situational awareness. The F-14D entered service with the JTIDS that brought the even better Link-16 datalink "picture" to the cockpit.
I think system patrol craft or perhaps long range interceptors could use a setup like this while carrier or station/planet based craft could use a more useful AWACS style passive system (or active/passive arrangement).

In any event I don't see why sensor/radar operations in the games timeline would not use some advanced target/tracking system that only allows for a guided missile lock on a single target. For civilian or merc/bounty hunters it may be too expensive but government ships should have this capability at least.
Last edited by pheonixstorm on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

Actually, VS has no such limit. You can fire many missiles at once (ie: not simultaneously, but you don't have to wait for a hit before you launch another).
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by TBeholder »

...because they all are fire&forget. Yup.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by pheonixstorm »

klauss wrote:Actually, VS has no such limit. You can fire many missiles at once (ie: not simultaneously, but you don't have to wait for a hit before you launch another).
No, but you do have to switch to a new target and acquire a new lock rather than having the radar system do it for you.
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

pheonixstorm wrote:
klauss wrote:Actually, VS has no such limit. You can fire many missiles at once (ie: not simultaneously, but you don't have to wait for a hit before you launch another).
No, but you do have to switch to a new target and acquire a new lock rather than having the radar system do it for you.
How else would you do it?
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote:You can fire many missiles at once (ie: not simultaneously, but you don't have to wait for a hit before you launch another).
Why not allow firing missiles simultaneously, by the way?

Is there a realistic reason why you lose lock on your target after you fire a missile or is it done that way for balance purposes?
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote:You can fire many missiles at once (ie: not simultaneously, but you don't have to wait for a hit before you launch another).
Why not allow firing missiles simultaneously, by the way?

Is there a realistic reason why you lose lock on your target after you fire a missile or is it done that way for balance purposes?
I guess it was done because Privateer did it.

But, in any case, it usually works like that, because one thing is your radar holding a lock, and another thing is your missile's radar doing it. For missiles to be fireable in quick succession, you'd need multiple missile mounts, which is already possible (if you have multiple missile mounts). Each mount holds a lock in that case, and you can fire all your mounts at the same time.

Why would you do that for only one enemy? Maybe chance to hit. It could be nice to be able to lock different units with different mounts, but I don't imagine an interface for that. Something like "target", "target", "paint", "target", "paint"?
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Re: Rocket Pods as weapon banks?

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: I guess it was done because Privateer did it.

But, in any case, it usually works like that, because one thing is your radar holding a lock, and another thing is your missile's radar doing it. For missiles to be fireable in quick succession, you'd need multiple missile mounts, which is already possible (if you have multiple missile mounts). Each mount holds a lock in that case, and you can fire all your mounts at the same time.
Well then shouldn't we make the radar just hold the lock after firing then?

Because the way it is now is pretty misleading; you think that you have to wait for a new lock before you can fire missile #2. And we don't need the extra delay for balance because we can use the number of missiles hard points and the reload delay to keep the rate of missile launches in check.
It could be nice to be able to lock different units with different mounts, but I don't imagine an interface for that. Something like "target", "target", "paint", "target", "paint"?
Sounds a bit cumbersome but that should work.

Before making missiles more effective or complex though, it would make a lot of sense to make them more... interactive. Right now, their in-flight status is nebulous because you can't see them past the first kilometer if they are outgoing and you never see them if they are incoming. And you can't do anything to actively evade or destroy them, either your ECM or PD gets them or you suddenly die. There is no skill involved in surviving a missile attack.

They need to have bigger more brilliant exhaust plumes and/or the HUD needs to highlight them (not on the radar, but on the main view) with some kind of bracket or symbol with a distance to target counter beside it. Additionally, incoming missiles should be marked red and have an intercept marker at all times so you can try to shoot them down with your guns. And missiles should have a very small fuel limit, so while your ship can't out sprint them, it can wear them out by maneuvering aggressively over time.

As a side benefit, missiles can then also function as a diversionary tactic. You fire one missile at each of the half dozen craft approaching you, not with the intent of killing them (or else you would have fired more at each target) but to force them to evade the missiles while you get out of there or get into a better tactical position.
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