2d and 3d Cockpits

Re: Where to Download?

Postby travists » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:24 pm

Figured as much... It's all the ships man. Bad cockpits, off stats... then there is the holes in the universe map! Needs a data overhaul and likely some cleanup, but I can just drop in the bin folder form the SVN updated just the other day and the game launches you can fly, shoot, etc.
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby klauss » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:39 am

travists wrote:Figured as much... It's all the ships man. Bad cockpits, off stats...


VS also suffers the "bad cockpits" thing. I really wish we could fix it for, if not the next release, the one after.
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby Deus Siddis » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:27 pm

klauss wrote:VS also suffers the "bad cockpits" thing. I really wish we could fix it for, if not the next release, the one after.


Which problem with cockpits do you mean?
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby klauss » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:37 pm

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote:VS also suffers the "bad cockpits" thing. I really wish we could fix it for, if not the next release, the one after.


Which problem with cockpits do you mean?


There's a lot of inconsistency in VS UTCS cockpits ATM. You have the default hud-only cockpit which is probably the nicest 2D one we have, but if you start buying ships, you start getting older, less functional versions of the cockpits, and the one ship class that has a 3D cockpit also suffers from HUD issues.

It's some amount of work, fixing all the cockpit classes, but it should be done. Travists is probably referring to some other kind of breakage, but what VS UTCS has can also be called breakage.
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby pheonixstorm » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:40 am

Would be nice to just have one cockpit that is customized via data (xml or whatever) for image/vdu placement. Even better would be a nice app that can help us visually.

I know I know.. thats about how it is now ;) Is there a difference how a 2d cockpit and 3d cockpit take in the data or even how they are supposed to be setup properly to work with the images, radar settings, etc. ?
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby klauss » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:02 am

pheonixstorm wrote:I know I know.. thats about how it is now ;) Is there a difference how a 2d cockpit and 3d cockpit take in the data or even how they are supposed to be setup properly to work with the images, radar settings, etc. ?


A 3D cockpit is just a 2D cockpit with a 3D model as "background". I've been pondering how to improve on that, without going all the way to render textures, but for now that's about all the difference there is.
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby travists » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:43 pm

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote:VS also suffers the "bad cockpits" thing. I really wish we could fix it for, if not the next release, the one after.


Which problem with cockpits do you mean?

Some of the WC player flyable ships are non-cannon, wrong or missing radar cross-section sprites, I think a couple have displays placed wrong... Hornet must be from super WC or something, while still the Hornet it is clearly not cannon!

If it makes you feel better, klauss, I have not encountered much in the way of bad cockpits in VS vanilla. But then the ships lack a lot of charm and individuality because it is all the same invisible cockpit.
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby klauss » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:42 am

travists wrote:If it makes you feel better, klauss, I have not encountered much in the way of bad cockpits in VS vanilla. But then the ships lack a lot of charm and individuality because it is all the same invisible cockpit.


Yeah, that's the kind of badness I was referring to. The one you were referring to is a bit more drastic.
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby Deus Siddis » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:45 am

klauss wrote:There's a lot of inconsistency in VS UTCS cockpits ATM. You have the default hud-only cockpit which is probably the nicest 2D one we have, but if you start buying ships, you start getting older, less functional versions of the cockpits, and the one ship class that has a 3D cockpit also suffers from HUD issues.


So there are multiple 2D cockpit layouts in use by different ships?

It's some amount of work, fixing all the cockpit classes, but it should be done.


Realistically, you need fewer distinct cockpit designs to make this happen. It is another situation where we must consciously choose quality over quantity to get results.

The 3D cockpit backgrounds should be very minimalist and open (while sparing no expense as far as poly count or texture resolution) and the 2D layout should always be exactly the same, or at least the same across a major species group (Aera, Human and Rlaan). The aim visual effect being to make the HUD seem like it is projected by the pilot's helmet onto it's own faceplate, while the pilot's chair sits very close to the cockpit glass for maximum visibility. Such is achievable the way the engine is now with an affordable degree of new content (a few new, well made, minimal 3D cockpits).

travists wrote:Some of the WC player flyable ships are non-cannon, wrong or missing radar cross-section sprites, I think a couple have displays placed wrong... Hornet must be from super WC or something, while still the Hornet it is clearly not cannon!


Maybe the Gemini Gold people could help you out there. If I recall correctly, they very strictly adhere to canon, so whatever content they have for cockpits should be accurate. Assuming they use compatible licensing.
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby klauss » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:21 am

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote:There's a lot of inconsistency in VS UTCS cockpits ATM. You have the default hud-only cockpit which is probably the nicest 2D one we have, but if you start buying ships, you start getting older, less functional versions of the cockpits, and the one ship class that has a 3D cockpit also suffers from HUD issues.


So there are multiple 2D cockpit layouts in use by different ships?


Yeap, but not ships, but ship class. There are quite few, but only the default one has ever been updated.

Deus Siddis wrote:
It's some amount of work, fixing all the cockpit classes, but it should be done.


Realistically, you need fewer distinct cockpit designs to make this happen. It is another situation where we must consciously choose quality over quantity to get results.


Not really, it's already below a dozen. It's doable. We may have to review the classification, like you say, focus on race differences more than ship differences, but it's already quite manageable.

Deus Siddis wrote:The 3D cockpit backgrounds should be very minimalist and open (while sparing no expense as far as poly count or texture resolution) and the 2D layout should always be exactly the same, or at least the same across a major species group (Aera, Human and Rlaan). The aim visual effect being to make the HUD seem like it is projected by the pilot's helmet onto it's own faceplate, while the pilot's chair sits very close to the cockpit glass for maximum visibility. Such is achievable the way the engine is now with an affordable degree of new content (a few new, well made, minimal 3D cockpits).

I'm not sure I'd go for minimalist. There's an issue here that I think flight simulators (specifically MS combat flight simulator) handle quite well, and we should adopt some of those solutions.

At times, sure you need maximum visibility. But at other times, you need to see the instruments, those that aren't on the HUD. The HUD can't contain everything, so it makes sense. Of course, the game will not have you interact with those controls directly, but they should be there for realism.

For this, MS CFS has three "forward" views: normal forward, where you can see the cockpit, controls and view, zoomed, where you see mostly the glass and hud, and instruments, where you focus on your instruments but do see a bit of the outside. We might as well implement those. It should be doable.

So, cockpits would have rather big views, but also numerous controls somewhere else that you can focus on by cycling through forward view (ie: hittin "1" repeatedly).

PS: I'd like to see the glass.
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby Deus Siddis » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:21 pm

klauss wrote:I'm not sure I'd go for minimalist. There's an issue here that I think flight simulators (specifically MS combat flight simulator) handle quite well, and we should adopt some of those solutions.

At times, sure you need maximum visibility. But at other times, you need to see the instruments, those that aren't on the HUD. The HUD can't contain everything, so it makes sense. Of course, the game will not have you interact with those controls directly, but they should be there for realism.


Without render-to-texture non-HUD displays are a moot point. 3D cockpits are just a background then, they need to be just enough to give you a feeling of scale and perspective but otherwise stay out of your way.

So I propose we do exactly that for now.

Then later, when OGRE integration brings render to texture, we add a futuristic 3D "standardized pilot station" model, which is a pilot's seat with various (perhaps semi-transparent) display panels attached to it by sturdy swing arms. These 3D displays either compliment or replace the 2D HUD. This interface chair in the foreground remains a separate model from the minimalist cockpit model in the background and stays consistent across all ships built by a certain species even if the cockpit itself changes to some extent from ship to ship. So the foreground model gives you interface consistency (so as to not headache the player unnecessarily) and content re-usage, while the background model offers some variety and character.

PS: I'd like to see the glass.


You mean see things reflecting in the glass?
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby loki1950 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:26 pm

I am going to move these OT comments to a new thread in the appropriate area.

Enjoy the Choice :)
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2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby loki1950 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:30 pm

Moved from Pu to main VS data

Enjoy the Choice :)
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Re: Where to Download?

Postby klauss » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:39 pm

loki1950 wrote:I am going to move these OT comments to a new thread in the appropriate area.

Enjoy the Choice :)


LOL, thanks man.

I use the "unread posts" page as "VS home" and that kinda resulted in me loosing track of where posts happen. I hadn't noticed it was in PU.
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby esgaroth » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:42 am

Then later, when OGRE integration brings render to texture


BTW, is there any progress recently ?
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby klauss » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:01 am

esgaroth wrote:
Then later, when OGRE integration brings render to texture


BTW, is there any progress recently ?


On Ogre? Not really.

On cockpits, there won't be any progress without cockpit models. Engine improvements will come to accommodate the models, not the other way around. So we first need the models.
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby charlieg » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:50 pm

Did anybody get a copy of strangelet's cockpit or of masteroforion's cockpits?
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby klauss » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:59 pm

IIRC, strangelet's cockpit is already in-game. It's for light ships.
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby ezee » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:06 am

Up !

Yeah , i am in a learning curve about the VS engine , and i think that this subject should stay in actuality .
I just made a wish in an other thread " 2d Cockpit evolution ( point and click ) :
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19475&view=unread#unread

So i have found here a part of my answers ( technically ) , and i have a better understanding of the actual situation .
I can make some basic 3d pits with Blender if neccessary for tests purpose .
Hey , we can bypass the renderToTexture problem by render the 3d model directly ?
We could design 3D cockpit where we render our actual visual elements in modeled parts designed to receive them .

If we implement then a function that is able to translate the screen cursor position ( 2d space ) in a 3d Space ( raytracing : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_tracing_(graphics) ) , we can animate our 3d cockpit !
EDIT : well , that idea is in the roadmap for the 5.2 version of the engine :
that's it. We release then move on to 0.5.2

1. Ray Collider. (alongside bsp collider tunable via configure switch ala how opcode was done). Wont be turned on by default until 0.5.3

src : viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11136

mmm... i will download the VS sources and try some tweaks .
I will use Visual studio 2008 for windows , and as a reminder the help for compilation of the VS source is located here :
http://wiki.vega-strike.org/HowTo:VCPP_Compiling
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby jackS » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:01 pm

2 bits (fwiw from a cannon perspective, and thoughts on qual/quant-ity):

From a cannon perspective, I'd advise working on designing (let alone implementing) the human cockpits in a way you're happy with before worrying _too_ much about the aliens (Rlaan have 360 degree vision and radial body symmetry... their cockpits will be... different). In particular this seems sensible because there's plenty of work to do for the various subspecies of Homo Sapiens :). The other cannon consideration relates to my thoughts below, but, put succinctly, while Google Glass and the F-35 helmet, etc. were science fiction back in the early 90s WC inspirations for VS and in the late 90s/early 00s period of VS development, I think we should attempt to be at least slightly forward thinking, or at least not backwards thinking, in terms of the physical/virtual relationships between controls and displays. Many aspects of the current HUD elements exist as they do because we either wanted to be able to replicate Privateer functionality or we needed to bolt on some HUD features to make key VS features not in WC/Elite style play at least indicated (e.g. SPEC information). Neither of those lead to either good, consistent, thoughtout, or cannon-reverent overall UI -- in particular, VS UI features were often designed by people who didn't see why anyone complains about vi's (optimized for 300 baud) UI (or, in my case, people willing to put up with VLSI CAD tools idea of error vs. warning vs. etc. messages) :)

3D cockpits lend greater immersiveness, but they also can
A) take up a lot of screen real estate
B) make questionable in-universe sense given current, let alone 1200 years hence, projected technology

I think coming up with
A) a UI-centric approach to an augmented reality wishlist for piloting that makes at least some sense for both gameplay and in-universe (former may trump latter) and
B) a paradigm for how that can/should interact with whatever physical representation of the cockpit is there (with at least some consideration of cannon)
and then just trying to build one good example (in mockup, before in-engine) might go a long way toward making the cockpit UI (in addition to the cockpit aesthetic) a lot better.

BUT - I almost certainly won't be doing any of the work on this, so... that's just the opinion of some old fogey -- and there are probably a number of threads talking about bits and pieces of this over the years that I haven't read, so I don't claim any original thoughts here either.
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby ezee » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:10 pm

Hi Jacks .
First , thank you to imply yourself a bit ( again ) , because what is a body without his head ?
:roll:

Your comments are apprecieted like for g Lucas and his team .
:wink:
From a cannon perspective, I'd advise working on designing (let alone implementing) the human cockpits in a way you're happy with before worrying _too_ much about the aliens

ah ah ah ...
Sure , but we started to play with the Aera's graphical representation , and in-vessel views
of them . So my first contribution for cockpits ( 2D or 3D ) will be for the Aera i guess .
I want to create emotional feeling with cinematics , and then try to give to the player
the sensations of the movie with a corresponding cockpit .

The way i will design the cockpit depends of what the VSGameEngine is able to support.
I know that at minimum a privateer like could work ( texture for left,right,back view )
But yeah my wish is to have a virtuallity augmented cockpit .

I think coming up with
A) a UI-centric approach to an augmented reality wishlist for piloting that makes at least some sense for both gameplay and in-universe (former may trump latter) and
B) a paradigm for how that can/should interact with whatever physical representation of the cockpit is there (with at least some consideration of cannon)
and then just trying to build one good example (in mockup, before in-engine) might go a long way toward making the cockpit UI (in addition to the cockpit aesthetic) a lot better.


Logical , i am ok for that .
Phase B seem like pretty cool to me .
And phase A should be a opened thread soon .
BUT - I almost certainly won't be doing any of the work on this, so... that's just the opinion of some old fogey --


That's ok .
Let me just learn what is a paradigm ... :lol:

Thank you Jacks !
:D
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 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
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                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }

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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby TBeholder » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:52 am

jackS wrote:2 bits (fwiw from a cannon perspective, and thoughts on qual/quant-ity):

From a cannon perspective, I'd advise working on designing (let alone implementing) the human cockpits in a way you're happy with before worrying _too_ much about the aliens (Rlaan have 360 degree vision and radial body symmetry... their cockpits will be... different).
Humans won't use Rlaan life support and what they have for chairs, so mostly moot point... most of the cabin should depend on pilots' species. What's left would be design choices, as in- "translated Rlaan interface".
For that matter, repeatedly switching to "Cockpit::Inside" (main viewmode) toggles between ship-specific and "disabled" (default) cockpits, so it's all cool.
Rlaan needs a crosshair and maybe absent gauges, but that's a cool HUD. :)
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby DarkVixen » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:55 am

Having played a few fight simulators, I prefer a simple 3D "frame" around the cockpit window that makes you feel you are inside a particular ship.

I prefer the displays to be in 2D and always displayed on top of any 3D cockpit model.

But this is just me, I don't consider myself a hard-core gamier and for an action/combat game like this, sometimes too much realism can make it too frantic to take in all the action. You need to be looking all over the screen at all the 3D gauges trying to figure out what is happening while at the same instant so many aliens want to kill you.

A hard game is not an enjoyable game.
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby jackS » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:37 am

TBeholder wrote:
jackS wrote:2 bits (fwiw from a cannon perspective, and thoughts on qual/quant-ity):

From a cannon perspective, I'd advise working on designing (let alone implementing) the human cockpits in a way you're happy with before worrying _too_ much about the aliens (Rlaan have 360 degree vision and radial body symmetry... their cockpits will be... different).
Humans won't use Rlaan life support and what they have for chairs, so mostly moot point... most of the cabin should depend on pilots' species. What's left would be design choices, as in- "translated Rlaan interface".
For that matter, repeatedly switching to "Cockpit::Inside" (main viewmode) toggles between ship-specific and "disabled" (default) cockpits, so it's all cool.
Rlaan needs a crosshair and maybe absent gauges, but that's a cool HUD. :)


This is actually part of why I said that -- if we want to model how a human (player) can control (UI) a human (player character avatar) flying a (non-anthropoid) alien vessel, we're probably assuming a total gut job anyway (for the case in point, humans and Rlaan don't operate at compatible sizes, temperatures, pressures, or atmospheric conditions, but at least the Rlaan are bigger, so you could squeeze the human widgets inside the associated spaces for the Rlaan ones ... maybe), which mostly reduces to a human-oriented UI on top of an alien aesthetic. Thus, I figure we should focus on getting the human-facing aspects of the UI right before worrying about what an alien UI would be.

That said, if we want to focus on what an alien cockpit would look like so that said alien can fly it, that's quite reasonable -- but probably not something we should worry about from the UI perspective at the moment (i.e. focus on support for human player character avatars first, since most players are presumably human). Now, if, while doing these designs, there are some obvious visual cues that can be extracted to indicate (behind/beyond a human-oriented UI) that one is flying a non-human vessel, that's great too.
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Re: 2d and 3d Cockpits

Postby klauss » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:18 pm

ezee wrote: The way i will design the cockpit depends of what the VSGameEngine is able to support.
I know that at minimum a privateer like could work ( texture for left,right,back view )
But yeah my wish is to have a virtuallity augmented cockpit .

The engine will do what the art requires it to do.

Quite low-hanging fruits, would be 3D transformed HUD elements (ie: rotated in 3D to match some surface in the cockpit to make it look as if it was texture-rendered).

Higher-hanging fruit (but still doable) would be render-to-texture to be able to map HUD elements onto the mesh somehow.

Anything else, is a feature request (and implementation) away. Just have in mind that point-n-click interfaces on the cockpit would require a drastic redesign of VS input methods (you cannot use the mouse currently for that, and that's quite rooted in the engine's design). I'm all for that, but that's certainly the highest-hanging fruit.
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