Scale charts

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CoD

Scale charts

Post by CoD »

We started talking about scale charts here: http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 9&start=15

I open this thread to follow this work separately from the "big ship idea" work.


I made a little script for extracting datas from mesher.exe and then I put them in a spreadsheet and I added the scaling factor from the units.csv (from svn, revision 10376)
You can find the spreadsheet (open document format) here: http://cod.altervista.org/_altervista_h ... e_calc.zip

It's just a one-afternoon work, so it's not complete, but helps in getting accurate measures for vessels (all RED measures are in meters)
I did not put in scaling factors for installations because I noticed that there are different scaling factors for different factions.
I'll complete the chart for vessels, first, then I'll study how to fix installations scale.

I still need ships obj models, then I'll do 2 screenshots (top and side) for each vessel, I'll trace it in a vectorial program and I'll scale it according to the spreadsheet I linked before.
It will be a long work, I think :roll:

If you find any error in this sheet, please correct it and let me know :wink:
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Post by Zeog »

You can convert the bxfm models to obj format with the mesher program (see first announcement in this forum).

Such a comparison chart would rock and it certaily is a lot of work. I've last seen such a thing here (for the Star Trek universe though): http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/fleet-charts.htm
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Post by Cockroach »

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/ ... cale01.png

I have the ones I was using from the other thread. They are scaled to 4.3 at present, so the Ox and Schroedinger are a bit off as is. I'll get some .obj's up as soon as I clean out my angelfire.

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/jg ... /VSobj.zip
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Post by geoscope »

I see the mule and ox... but where's my clyde at? Oh, you say that a pic of my hangar deck? Ok. :lol:
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Re: Scale charts

Post by jackS »

CoD wrote: If you find any error in this sheet, please correct it and let me know :wink:
The vessel numbers all appear to match up with what my own sizing spreadsheets (created and re-created at various times to assist in pondering mass, volume, etc - we used to have a script that fed xmeshes into a convex hull calculating program, but we never upgraded the script to deal with bfxms, and most of the ships are spiny/winged enough that convex hull approximations aren't that good anyway...) have for X,Y, and Z separations.

FYI, the ships with no scale specified in units.csv have a scale of 1.

I think this is a very worthwhile project. Two things spring to mind immediately -

1) As the dataset is not yet stable, this work will likely have to be repeated, hence it's probably worth the time to A) script things, where possible, and B) make the scripts available for others to use. Moreover, if there is a reasonably flexible infrastructure for making such a size comparison chart, I imagine that other mods using the VS engine might appreciate the ability to produce such charts.

2) For visual representations, if you can find scale models of familiar real objects (like people, airplanes, ships, Manhattan) and put them alongside the vessels of similar scale, this could produce a more palpable feeling of the ranges of scale - clearly, it's still great if you can't find such models, but it'd be even nicer if you could :).

@zeog - I prefer http://www.merzo.net/index.html

It's more expansive and shows a wider variety of zooms (with the previous big ones now itty-bitty things in the next, etc.)
CoD

Post by CoD »

The chart I'm thinking at would have simple profiles of each ship ordered by size, a grid with a scale diagram (in meters) and the 3 measures (x, y and z in meters) written under the name of each ship.
I suppose that ship profiles will be simple outlines, because I need to scale them using a scalable vector graphic software and with textures this would be not so easy.

I installed blender 3d, and I'm going to use it to make screenshots instead of wings3d.
I have to re-convert all bfxm to xmesh instead of obj :roll: but I'll automate this using a little script :wink:
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Re: Scale charts

Post by Zeog »

jackS wrote:@zeog - I prefer http://www.merzo.net/index.html

It's more expansive and shows a wider variety of zooms (with the previous big ones now itty-bitty things in the next, etc.)
Impressive indeed. :shock:
CoD

Post by CoD »

Can someone explain me how to remove those ugly blue faces (I suppose they are lights) from a wings3d models screenshot?
I tried blender 3d but it didn't load the clydesdale correctly (just the first segment)

EDIT: I find easier to manually modify those models having blue surfaces (lights). They aren't so many.
I still would like to know how to have decent renders, but there's no hurry.

I'm at 50% of starship scale charts and I can say: man, Archimedes and Clydesdale are damn big!
A 1:10000 scale (1 mm = 10 meters) will fit 'em in a big image, but it will make little ship nearly disappear.
Maybe we could do different charts for small and big ships and a final enormous chart for all vessels.
This problem does not exist in vectorial charts, obviously, but I bet somebody would have a jpg image of the chart.
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Post by Cockroach »

On the ones I was using, I selected them all and set the only material on the models to the default. Should be under: Window > Outliner
I also set hard edges wherever it was possible as OpenGL rendering was giving a lot of black spots in Wings otherwise.
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Post by jackS »

CoD wrote: A 1:10000 scale (1 mm = 10 meters) will fit 'em in a big image, but it will make little ship nearly disappear.
Have you visited the merzo.net link?

To deal with this issue, they have a variety of zooms (10x, 1x, -2x, -10x, -100x, -2000x, and "BIG"), featuring arrangements of different subsets of vessels/objects.

The bottom of the 1x page has a number of amusing real objects (and King Kong).
CoD

Post by CoD »

I visited that website, but I'm not sure that having different zooms is the answer, anyway.....

... I'M DONE! :D

I'm proud to present the "Complete vessel scale chart" version 1:
http://cod.altervista.org/_altervista_h ... sselSC.zip
  • complete (all VS vessels are outlined here)
    with measures (lenght, height and width)
    updated to revision 10376
    nearly infinite levels of zoom (the vectorial magic)
    just 375,6 Kb (another vectorial magic)
You'll also find a vectorial version of the VS logo (I made it in 15 minutes, so don't expect to be "perfect") :wink:
To view this chart a vectorial program is needed. I suggest Inkscape (open source, free software, easy to use).
You can even open it in Firefox (but you won't be able to zoom vessels outlines)

I still have 2 doubts:

1) vessels are listed with their bfxm name, which is sometimes different from ingame vessel name (for example the Taizong here is called Vidar), Should we fix it?
2) I put vessels in lenght order, should we make an alphabetical chart?

Now tell me everything you don't like, just let me charge my Ion cannon first :P
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Post by geoscope »

Put away the ion cannon, until you can tell me how to download this file. I tried to right-click saveas... and ended up saving an altervista html page. I open the link with a left click, and only got their http://home.altervista.org/site/ homepage.
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Post by Zeog »

Copy'n'paste the URL into your address filed. altervista just doesn't like referers.
Very impressive! I didn't realize some of these ships were that big!
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Post by jackS »

Bravo!

I'll need to find a less pitiful viewer so I can actually make use of the scalable part of the vector graphics, and zoom in.
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Post by jackS »

CoD wrote: 1) vessels are listed with their bfxm name, which is sometimes different from ingame vessel name (for example the Taizong here is called Vidar), Should we fix it?
2) I put vessels in lenght order, should we make an alphabetical chart?
on 1) Yes, if you can find the time.

on 2) I assume you're talking about the name->number chart, and not the outlines themselves, because the former could benefit from the alphabetical change, especially as the list grows, and the latter would likely suffer. One option, I guess, is to make two versions, one numbered by size and one numbered by alpha order - that way, people could readily find what they were searching for from either direction.

one other note, #15, the "corvette" model should not be in use anymore - all of the corvette references should have been replaced by thales refs at this point, so you can remove it from the chart.
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Post by www2 »

your say it jackS

i think that this charts can split in 2 or 3 parts

like:
part 1 for the small ships like llama, cargo pod and pilot pod...
part 2 for the midel class ship like Ox and Mule...
part 3 for the cap ship's like vitik and yavok...

And meby a idea for add a list with all the space station....
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Post by CoD »

Installation scale chart is under construction :wink:
I couldn't understand the gasmine model, but all other installations have already been vectorized.

I'll make some rasterized image (i.e. jpg) of this chart using different scales for different vessel classes as soon as I'll have time.
JakcS: making a chart is a very long work and I don't know if we could manage 2 version of these scale charts as long as more models are added.

What about an hybrid solution? Outlines could be placed in lenght order (even a not precise order: little ships with little ships, big with big, and so on) but the list and the numbers follow an alphabetical order.
This would be easier to do, even if we have to rearrange numbers as long as new ships are added.

One more doubt (forgive me please): what's the correct form? "complete vessel scale chart" or "complete vessels scale chart"?
Ok... don't tell my old english teacher I asked this :wink:

geoscope wrote:Put away the ion cannon, until you can tell me how to download this file. I tried to right-click saveas... and ended up saving an altervista html page. I open the link with a left click, and only got their http://home.altervista.org/site/ homepage.
I'm sorry for this problem: copy the link in your address bar and it will work.
Long long time ago I was one of the altervista moderators and I believed in their project: now they changed so many things that I can't stand their service anymore.
They said that the special folder I used for that link it's not leech protected, but it seems they have changed the rules one more time... without warning users, as usual.
I'll sell myself a professional web space as soon as I'll have something to put in it
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Post by geoscope »

I just had a look. The Scalable graphics for the smallest ships don't seem to hold up to the level of zoom needed to see them, and it seems funny that their numbers are bigger than they are. So, maybe 2 charts would be a good idea, just to give a better image for the little guys, but leave the small ships in place on the main chart, for comparison. Great work, CoD.
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Post by jackS »

CoD wrote: What about an hybrid solution? Outlines could be placed in lenght order (even a not precise order: little ships with little ships, big with big, and so on) but the list and the numbers follow an alphabetical order.
This would be easier to do, even if we have to rearrange numbers as long as new ships are added.

One more doubt (forgive me please): what's the correct form? "complete vessel scale chart" or "complete vessels scale chart"?
Ok... don't tell my old english teacher I asked this :wink:
A "hybrid" solution matches well with what I was thinking of in terms of alphabetizing - just change the listing of names, not the spatial ordering or even the assignment of numbers.

"Complete Vessel Scale Chart" is fine.
CoD

Post by CoD »

geoscope wrote:I just had a look. The Scalable graphics for the smallest ships don't seem to hold up to the level of zoom needed to see them
With a good svg program zooming should be "virtually" infinite.
With Inkscape, for example, you can see the shape of the eject pod (the smallest vessel we have) with a good 3000% zoom.
http://cod.altervista.org/_altervista_h ... igzoom.jpg
geoscope wrote: just to give a better image for the little guys, but leave the small ships in place on the main chart, for comparison.
I'll do it :wink:
jackS wrote: A "hybrid" solution matches well with what I was thinking of in terms of alphabetizing - just change the listing of names, not the spatial ordering or even the assignment of numbers.
I can change numbers without problems: I just have to drag em in their new position.
jackS wrote: "Complete Vessel Scale Chart" is fine.
Thanks :D
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Post by Oblivion »

1) vessels are listed with their bfxm name, which is sometimes different from ingame vessel name (for example the Taizong here is called Vidar), Should we fix it?
2) I put vessels in lenght order, should we make an alphabetical chart?
I'm planning of changing this atm and have already changed some actually. See the thread I will be starting. So don't worry. I will also be providing missing maps for all the ships. Some ships though seem past redemption and I'll leave them as they are.

Here's an idea: Anyone know an easy way to convert the .bfxm models to xmesh or obj? It's the hardest part. Having to double check everything or I'd end up replacing the ship model with the blink.ani, :lol:

I haven't yet seen the ship scale chart, but, is there any measurement in it? Even if only one ship is measured by say feet, we could then surmise the size of the others. Or better yet, add a teeny human figure somewher in the chart. :D
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Post by CoD »

Oblivion wrote:Here's an idea: Anyone know an easy way to convert the .bfxm models to xmesh or obj? It's the hardest part. Having to double check everything or I'd end up replacing the ship model with the blink.ani, :lol:
On linux you could use my "quick and dirty" script:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
# this script is a mass converter for 3d models from vegastrike format to obj format
# just run it in the "vegastrike" folder (i.e. outside units folder) and it will create a 
# folder named "obj_model", containing all the bfxm converted to obj

CONVERTER="wine ../../bin/mesher.exe"
WINEDEBUG="fixme-all,warn-all"

mkdir "obj_model"
cd units
for element in *; do 
	[ -d "$element" ] && {
		echo PROCESSING $element
		mkdir "../obj_model/$element"
		cd $element
		for model in *.bfxm; do
			[ -e "$model" ] && {
				echo "--> CONVERTING $model"
				$CONVERTER $model $model.obj boc
				mv $model.obj "../../obj_model/$element/"
				mv $model.mtl "../../obj_model/$element/"
			}
		done
		for image in *.png; do
			[ -e "$image" ] && {
				echo "--> COPYING $image"
				cp $image "../../obj_model/$element/"
			}
		done
		cd ..
	}
done
echo REMOVING bfxm extension from converted models
cd ../obj_model
rename 's/\.bfxm//' */*.obj
rename 's/\.bfxm//' */*.mtl
Oblivion wrote:I haven't yet seen the ship scale chart, but, is there any measurement in it? Even if only one ship is measured by say feet, we could then surmise the size of the others. Or better yet, add a teeny human figure somewher in the chart. :D
Yes: each vessel is listed in a little table with its measures :wink:
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Post by Oblivion »

listed in a little table with its measures
Great!

with the code, anyway, I'll find my ways. :wink: umm. Sorry, Im using XP.. :(
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Post by loki1950 »

Oblivion that script of CoD looks easy enough to convert to a XP batch file.

Enjoy the Choice :)
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Post by Oblivion »

How? :roll:

DL'd the wrong file the last time. :oops: Still ahven't seen the chart.
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