i would like to help with some graphics for the equipement

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Oblivion
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Post by Oblivion »

I also don't like seeing thruster cones. They seem too much like old tech. :wink: VS thrusters are just glowing depressions, or somesuch protrusions. But still, it's a missile. :wink: Expendable, so old tech might be used.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

In spite of hardly any scientific and technological progress for the past 30 years we seem to never let go of the romantic notions of the 60's, of an exponential progress going on up forever. Maybe there's a reason why thrusters being designed today look pretty similar to Von Brown's... Well, there's also ion thrusters now, which do look different, though they produce very weak thrust; but then again, plasma thrusters on the drawing boards, if they come to happen, have bell shaped exhausts like those of chemical rockets :)
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Post by prestidigitator »

Well, you see those plates (well, you can only really make out the top one) and big glowing thing in the center of the inductor? That's one HUGE (rubberish) capacitor. ;)

I'll think about the thruster thing. Maybe the icon would work best, as adding anything much bigger to the bottom might make the rest small enough to be indecipherable. I'll tinker a little.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

prestidigitator wrote:Well, you see those plates (well, you can only really make out the top one) and big glowing thing in the center of the inductor? That's one HUGE (rubberish) capacitor. ;)

I'll think about the thruster thing. Maybe the icon would work best, as adding anything much bigger to the bottom might make the rest small enough to be indecipherable. I'll tinker a little.
Uhmm... the "big glowing thing in the center of the inductor" should actually be a tube of copper filled with plastic explosive. No room for a capacitor there. The way it works is, upon detonation, first the capacitors are connected across the inductor. Over the next couple of milliseconds, the current through the coil increases and reaches a maximum. AT the moment that maximum flux has built up, the plastic explosive charge is detonated from the back end. Then, for a few microseconds, the explosion progresses forward. As it does, each section along the copper tube expands, making contact with the coil, progressively shorting its 'turns', and increasing current through the remaining turns. At the end, the last, forward section of the inner, copper tube expands, making the whole coil a single turn, at which current through that single turn reaches like a million amperes or so. Then that last turn disintegrates, sparking across its separating spliters. The spark becomes like a circular, expanding lightning bolt, radiating radio noise millions of times stronger than your standard radio broadcast.
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Post by Halleck »

The little blue things on the side look like every capacitor I've ever seen.

Also.. wouln't you want an iron core inside the coil to boost the strength of the magnetic field?
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Post by prestidigitator »

chuck_starchaser wrote:Uhmm... the "big glowing thing in the center of the inductor" should actually be a tube of copper filled with plastic explosive. No room for a capacitor there. The way it works is, upon detonation, first the capacitors are connected across the inductor. Over the next couple of milliseconds, the current through the coil increases and reaches a maximum. AT the moment that maximum flux has built up, the plastic explosive charge is detonated from the back end. Then, for a few microseconds, the explosion progresses forward. As it does, each section along the copper tube expands, making contact with the coil, progressively shorting its 'turns', and increasing current through the remaining turns. At the end, the last, forward section of the inner, copper tube expands, making the whole coil a single turn, at which current through that single turn reaches like a million amperes or so. Then that last turn disintegrates, sparking across its separating spliters. The spark becomes like a circular, expanding lightning bolt, radiating radio noise millions of times stronger than your standard radio broadcast.
See the thing at the bottom of the coil. :)
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Post by prestidigitator »

Halleck wrote:Also.. wouln't you want an iron core inside the coil to boost the strength of the magnetic field?
Probably the strength of the magnetic field (before detonation) isn't incredibly important in this case, but rather the amount of energy stored in it. I put a huge capacitor with some kind of pseudo-science futuristic dielectric material (who knows what other properties it has) in the center. The idea is still that it's a huge superconducting LC circuit, but it doesn't have to be a hundred percent sound according to modern science.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

prestidigitator wrote:
Halleck wrote:Also.. wouln't you want an iron core inside the coil to boost the strength of the magnetic field?
Probably the strength of the magnetic field (before detonation) isn't incredibly important in this case, but rather the amount of energy stored in it.
Magnetism is quite unintuitive. Ferrous materials attract and concentrate magnetic lines, but they saturate, ***limiting*** your field strenth.
I put a huge capacitor with some kind of pseudo-science futuristic dielectric material (who knows what other properties it has) in the center. The idea is still that it's a huge superconducting LC circuit, but it doesn't have to be a hundred percent sound according to modern science.
Maybe not, but there should be some semi-believable, theoretical basis for deviating from principles that are well understood. Science fiction things made in the spirit of artistic license by people who understand neither science nor technology easily becomes complete garbage. Garbage that works for movies, but not for games. In movies, you never see anything for more than half a second, so anything looking complex is good enough. Games are things you play, sometimes for a long time, and you get to notice non-sensical stuff.

But even artistically, your model now looks like a toy bomb from a cartoon. The only good part of it is the coil, really, so might as well throw the rest, make the coil longer, give it a copper core, larger capacitors, believable propulsion, etceteras.
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Post by prestidigitator »

chuck_starchaser wrote:Magnetism is quite unintuitive. Ferrous materials attract and concentrate magnetic lines, but they saturate, ***limiting*** your field strenth.

Maybe not, but there should be some semi-believable, theoretical basis for deviating from principles that are well understood. Science fiction things made in the spirit of artistic license by people who understand neither science nor technology easily becomes complete garbage. Garbage that works for movies, but not for games. In movies, you never see anything for more than half a second, so anything looking complex is good enough. Games are things you play, sometimes for a long time, and you get to notice non-sensical stuff.
Ouch. Harsh. I was a physics major you know. I've had plenty of E&M.
But even artistically, your model now looks like a toy bomb from a cartoon. The only good part of it is the coil, really, so might as well throw the rest, make the coil longer, give it a copper core, larger capacitors, believable propulsion, etceteras.
Cool. Well, here's a zipped blender model with the coil. Have fun.

I think I'm done here. For good.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

prestidigitator wrote:
chuck_starchaser wrote:Magnetism is quite unintuitive. Ferrous materials attract and concentrate magnetic lines, but they saturate, ***limiting*** your field strenth.

Maybe not, but there should be some semi-believable, theoretical basis for deviating from principles that are well understood. Science fiction things made in the spirit of artistic license by people who understand neither science nor technology easily becomes complete garbage. Garbage that works for movies, but not for games. In movies, you never see anything for more than half a second, so anything looking complex is good enough. Games are things you play, sometimes for a long time, and you get to notice non-sensical stuff.
Ouch. Harsh. I was a physics major you know. I've had plenty of E&M.
Well, how come, then, you chose to answer Halleck's question incorrectly?
Well, here's a zipped blender model with the coil. Have fun.
Thank you; I'll try.
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Post by prestidigitator »

chuck_starchaser wrote:Well, how come, then, you chose to answer Halleck's question incorrectly?
The amount of energy released is going to be equal to the amount of energy stored in the fields (you can't get something for nothing, and actually the hysteresis of the material is just going to waste some energy as the changing field realligns the bound magnetic dipoles of the material), not the strength of the field itself. If the circuit is superconducting, there is no real limit on the current so the amount of energy storable in the magnetic field really isn't going to be limited in any manner by the inductance of the coil. In any case we really have no idea what the diaelectric or magnetic properties of the material in the center are, and I don't think it is vast stretch to assume that so far into the future we have a material that gives us an, "ideal," field collapse.

Regardless of any accuracy or inaccuracy, thanks for being constructive, helpful, and supportive of artistic exploration instead of abrupt, arrogant, and insulting. :roll:
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Post by ergo »

hey, i must admit that rocket DID look like a cartoon model, i'll take my chances with emp torpedo, check it out.

emp1 512x512
Image
emp1 128x128
Image

emp1 512x512
Image
emp1 128x128
Image
Using : SVN
OS: Windows
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Post by prestidigitator »

ergo wrote:hey, i must admit that rocket DID look like a cartoon model, i'll take my chances with emp torpedo, check it out.
Nice, erg. It wasn't the criticism I had a problem with. It was the form. "It looks a little cartoonish. Maybe you could retexture it and/or change the proportions," would have been constructive criticism I would definitely have appreciated. The comment that basically amounts to, "You're stupid, ignorant, shouldn't involve your imagination, have terrible artisitc style, and should just throw out your model," is something else entirely.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

prestidigitator wrote:
chuck_starchaser wrote:Well, how come, then, you chose to answer Halleck's question incorrectly?
The amount of energy released is going to be equal to the amount of energy stored in the fields (you can't get something for nothing, and actually the hysteresis of the material is just going to waste some energy as the changing field realligns the bound magnetic dipoles of the material), not the strength of the field itself.
Exactly, so a ferrous core is waste at best. That was my point.
If the circuit is superconducting, there is no real limit on the current so the amount of energy storable in the magnetic field really isn't going to be limited in any manner by the inductance of the coil.
No, exactly, the only limit is the energy stored in the capacitors.
In any case we really have no idea what the diaelectric or magnetic properties of the material in the center are, and I don't think it is vast stretch to assume that so far into the future we have a material that gives us an, "ideal," field collapse.
The material in the center is the plastic explosive. C3? C4? Maybe C17 in the 4th millenium. Dielectric constant is irrelevant, anyways.
Regardless of any accuracy or inaccuracy, thanks for being constructive, helpful, and supportive of artistic exploration instead of abrupt, arrogant, and insulting. :roll:
I tried to be constructive and helpful and nice, but if you come up with stuff that is garbage in every way one looks at it, scientifically (putting a capacitor inside the coil, where the explosive needs to be), technically (tiny engines with ultra-tiny fuel tanks, and a protective shield that would cost an arm and a leg to produce, by giving it curvature in two axes), and artistically (cartoon look (not to speak of catamarans in space...) ); and I even lie to you, to encourage you, and even make a model for you in Blender, for inspiration, --in spite of the pain that causes me because of my right shoulder's tendonitis--; and instead of taking the hints you argue to defend your garbage, well, guess what...

ergo wrote:hey, i must admit that rocket DID look like a cartoon model, i'll take my chances with emp torpedo, check it out.
That really looks good, ergo; and I'm not lying to you :D.
What it needs is tanks and pipes and little greebles around the neck of the base to which the engines are attached. Probably you planned it already; but just in case.
Have a look here for inspiration:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 9320#59320
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Post by ergo »

emp3 512x512
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emp3 128x128
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Using : SVN
OS: Windows
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Post by ergo »

the rthings at the back of the coil are oil tanks but its a pity the render doesnt show them as they should look like ;/ ok, its 4:30 am and im going to sleep. the last version is remodeld accordingly to jacks suggestions
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Post by prestidigitator »

prestidigitator wrote:
Halleck wrote:Also.. wouln't you want an iron core inside the coil to boost the strength of the magnetic field?
Probably the strength of the magnetic field (before detonation) isn't incredibly important in this case, but rather the amount of energy stored in it.
chuck_starchaser wrote:
prestidigitator wrote:
chuck_starchaser wrote:Well, how come, then, you chose to answer Halleck's question incorrectly?
The amount of energy released is going to be equal to the amount of energy stored in the fields (you can't get something for nothing, and actually the hysteresis of the material is just going to waste some energy as the changing field realligns the bound magnetic dipoles of the material), not the strength of the field itself.
Exactly, so a ferrous core is waste at best. That was my point.
Way to backpedal. Thumbs-up for trying, anyway.
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Post by Halleck »

Please don't argue on my behalf, on top of your other arguments. I'm in my first year of real physics so I'm not too knowledgeable about this stuff even though I'm curious.

Anyway, it made sense to me because they use ferrous cores in motors and stuff. I don't understand your explanations of why it would have a negative effect here. Is that because it's a superconducting circuit?
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Okay, if you have an open coil ("air core", vacuum all the same; i.e.: non-ferrous core), and if you apply a constant voltage across it, you get a linearly rising current. If your voltage supply source is "ideal", meaning it has no internal resistance or limit to the amount of current it can supply, and is able to maintain that voltage, the current will continue to rise, linearly with time, until the copper wire vaporizes, that is, of course.
The rate of increase in current, for a given voltage, is inversely proportional to the coil's inductance. IOW, for a given rate of increase in current, the more inductance, the more voltage is required.
Now, suppose you have a bar of iron and you stick it through the coil. The inductance of the coil now becomes orders of magnitude greater. Which means, at a given voltage, it will take much longer for the current to rise to a given value. That's because the magnetic field energy is getting "soaked up" by the iron bar. Namely, you're causing the iron atoms spin axes to turn and align with your field, and this takes a lot of energy to do. Once they reach "perfect alignment", though, the iron bar is said to be "saturated", at which point it cannot soak up any more magnetic energy. From that point on, if you're still applying the same voltage across the coil, the current will start rising as fast as if you didn't have an iron bar in there.

In the case of an EMP weapon, this is energy wasted. Instead of using that energy to fry your enemy's electronics, you wasted it magnetizing your iron bar.

The reason transformers often use iron bars is to increase coupling and reduce current in the windings. It's more efficient, and radiates less interference. If you tried to make transformers with air-core, you'd need to operate them at tens or hundreds of megahertz to avoid losing a lot of energy as heat dissipation due to the resistance of the copper wiring, and the radiated noise would be enormous.

But an EMP weapon is designed to radiate noise; and the copper winding will be obliterated on detonation anyhow.
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Post by Halleck »

I see. I think I missed about 15% of that, but I got the gist. :D
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Post by To Megatherion »

Hm...I dunno but those torpedoes do look a bit like...you know...pleasure items for women.
And don't go Freud on me for that remark :D.
But I guess this is because the shape is as it is.
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Post by Halleck »

Don't get us started about the "flying phalluses in space" again... :D
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Post by To Megatherion »

OK, so forget my comment above.
Up until now I didn't know there was so much consideration behind the things in VS. I thought you just made them up, using a bit of common sense. As it seems, there's also some not so common science involved. Great.

This leads me to another thing that may not belong into this thread. But the idea is not really as great as to justify its own thread I guess: The rlaan are supposed to be superior chemists (chemicists?), yet there's not much rlaan stuff you can buy except for CCBB and something else.
Scientists have now discovered a substance, which stores about five times the amount of energy as TNT does and which is available on nearly every bio friendly planet in great amounts: Nitrogen. Not gaseous nitrogen but solid, diamondlike stuff which will explode into nitrogen gas...drawback is, one needs a lot of pressure and temp to produce it. Here the rlaan come in. THey should have the know how to make Nitrogencrystals a cheap, clean and most of all powerfull replacement for other non-nuclear explosives.

BTW: Here's a link to an article by http://www.mpch-mainz.mpg.de/mpg/english/pri0804.htm[/url]
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

That's very interesting! Thanks for the link.
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