Food for Thought

Thinking about improving the Artwork in Vega Strike, or making your own Mod? Submit your question and ideas in this forum.

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Food for Thought

Post by Privateer Ferrius »

Some food for thought for all you aspiring graphics designers:

http://news.com.com/Design+software+wea ... 58369.html
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Post by Kangaroo »

Nice find! Although I can't imidiately draw everything with my Corel 10 demo, this text is about me 99.9% :P
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Post by chrisdn »

Danmn good article and and a diamond of a find!!! I need to use it it some of my marketing material, respect to ferrius but should I give you additional credit? Let me know mate!
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

Story Copyright © 2006 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
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Post by Ryder P. Moses »

Ahahahaha. I remember what the state of the art was ten years ago- yeah, there's a huge loss in creativity there, right. People are barely mimicking other peoples' ages-old styles anymore! Oh, woe is art. Oh, especially in American architecture, where literally nothing changed for fifty years, until suddenly entire new schools started cropping up in the wake of CAD!

College professors and pros were spouting this same shit about digital cameras back when they were first emerging- despite the fact that they're really obviously the best thing to happen to art since the goddamn SLR. Buncha old dudes with an entrenched interest in the old system, where they are on the top and the ultimate authorities on everything, terrified of the world moving on and leaving them behind as second-rate artists with charmingly obsolete talents. A traditional animator cannot compete, in any way, with one who knows how to do 3D compositing well. Hence, 3D compositing is THE DEVIL and DESTROYING ART FOREVER. Design drafting which used to take months and be a hideously inaccurate and tedious job can now take mere hours- hence it's ELIMINATING ALL THAT CAREFUL THOUGHT WE PUT INTO MAKING 16" BY 16" CUBES. They don't understand it (note how they presume pencil-and-paper artwork and computer art are somehow mutually exclusive), they don't want to understand it, all they know is that they hate it and want to see it stamped out.

There are failings in computer-aided design, of course- for one thing, there's no developed learning system yet, since the exciting bits are only about five years old. It's a very small number of highly enterprising, creative people who've actually gone out and learned to use the unique properties of digital media to their fullest extent, because there aren't any schools out there leading thousands of students by the hand to become professional-quality digital illustrators. There's maybe a dozen of the top art and design schools in the world that are just beginning to teach how to use stuff like Photoshop and Maya (badly, by my experience- we're talking professional traditional-artists with a kindergarten-level understanding of CG trying to teach people that mirroring images is the hottest thing ever). Which means that everyone's an autodidact, which means 99% of "digital artists" are simply awful, and they're not really learning anything worth learning. Especially in 3D, where traditional-media skills and techniques cannot apply like they do in digital illustration, and especially especially in 3D compositing, which is the most useful field for the artform by far.
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

If there's an intelligent point in your rant Ryder, I'm still waiting for it.
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Post by chrisdn »

already got a feed agrrement with reuters...thank god! Really don't understand why the feature didn't get to me to approve for my company's mags!!!! Not to worry...ferrius!...get in touch...chrisnicholaidis@blueyonder.co.uk

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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

I only found a story on the internet. If you really want to credit me, go for it it, but say just that,. or reuters might get angry thinking Im claiming to write an article one of their wire reporters wrote.
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Post by Ryder P. Moses »

Somehow the mockery of a novelist publisher engineer who can't write a grammatically-correct sentence to save his life and knows nothing about engineering fails to sting.
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

Ryder, if you have something to add which is intelligent and thought out then go for it, but if you're just going to spout unfounded and unresearched rants to which youve been indoctrinated, just don't post it. It's a waste of VS's database.

Really, complaining about professors or teachers is immature. And saying that you don't have to know traditional art to do well in digital art, or that traditional art cannot compete with digital art, shows that you lack a funadamental understanding of the arts. True creativity does not limit itself to a single art form, nor does true creativity shirk another genre. The comment that traditional art cannot compete with digitial art is especially ironic, because you're comparing apples and oranges. They are as different an art form as the written word is from visual art. They use different materials in different processes to produce greatly differing results.

You show nothing but unfounded elitism in purporting that an artist could not teach a 3D art class. In fact, a true artist would be the best teacher of a class, for reasons I am sure are obvious to others, if not you. Creating realistic art, especially to the degree of da Vinci or the Group of Seven requires an acute awareness of spatial relationships, which is the greatest asset to a 3D modeller. After all, to work in three dimensions requires an awareness of all three dimensions; without that, you are doomed to failure.

In conclusion, I believe it wise that before you put forth someone else's misbegotten rants as your own, try considering the merits of the argument instead of blindly accepting them.
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Post by Ryder P. Moses »

I'll forgive you your completely random insults and claims of idea plagarism (from who, might I ask???). You really should work on your ad-hominem-fu if you're gonna just stick around and insult people, though.

There are no merits to the argument. The "argument", as put forth in that article, can be summarized as 'traditional art is slow and flawed, digital art is not, hence digital art precludes thought'. Which is a load of horseshit, demonstrably so. That's even worse than the claims of the anti-digital-photography movement, especially given that they even went so far as to inflate the virtues of digital. Would you like me to take you through the history of modern art, to show you just how wrongheaded this notion is? Talk about your 'lack of research'- the contemporary art and design world was pretty much a wasteland in the period between the mid-seventies and nineteen ninety-five, the only change of note being the Postmodernists giving Duchamp's dessicated corpse one final halfhearted dry-hump from a position fractionally different from the one they'd done before- except for the first flickerings of technology-based artwork.

So the established art world is up in arms not because of any actual impact on global creativity, but because things are changing, because new things are coming along, and they don't understand them. You can call recognition of the facts "immature" all you like, but it's true and it's always been true that those who've come to fame and fortune through exploiting the old ways are the loudest to condemn the new ways- and rightly so, we've already seen traditional animators shouldered out of their one great cash cow and traditional pen-and-graph-paper designers being largely supplanted by digital artists who can do more and more interesting things. Illustrators have been largely unaffected, but then their field is the one that integrates most smoothly with the digital world- and you'll be hard-pressed to find a professional illustrator who claims CG is Destroying Artwork. Most of the ones I know are more genuinely enthusiastic about digital than the digital-only artists. All these shiny-headed mavens you see skrarking about the end of creativity now are the intellectual heirs of the geeks who were positive 35mm photography was the inferior retarded cousin of silver plate- and they're fast headed the same way, to a fairly lucrative but claustrophobic niche serving the wealthy collectors who don't so much care if a work is good as that it was really difficult and expensive to make it. The average dude? The corporations and magazine-readers and TV-watchers and museumgoers and print-buyers? The people who actually make it possible to have a career as an artist? Don't give a damn how something was made. Digital painting and gouache may "use different materials in different processes to produce greatly differing results", but to anybody who's not an artist it's the same goddamn difference. Your yammering on about how digital and traditional art don't compete, don't have anything to do with each other, are completely irrelevant is hilarious, because they already are competing, and digital art is winning. Try giving an ad agency nowadays a hand-painted comp for a poster and they will laugh you out of the building. If you're very good, top ten percent say, of traditional artists you can still scrape out a living selling hand-drawn pieces for about five to eight times the value of a digital print (less if you're a photographer, a bit more if you're a painter, about fifty times more if you're a sculptor), as good art is good art and sells regardless. You can sell it exactly once, to the digital artist's one thousand times. And your stuff still won't sell as well, simply because it costs more than most people are now willing to pay. Even now, the market for traditional artists is oversaturated, as jobs once the exclusive domain of painters and inkers are now going to people who can use Photoshop on the Mac. The old-school artists really are starving now, bitching their way into prehistory- or they're adapting, if they're smart, learning to work a scanner and OpenCanvas to leaven their real-media work with something a bit more profitable.

As for your whole spiel about 'true artists' can teach anything they please, wow, what a trainwreck. It's not often I see someone get knocked down by their very own strawman. I'm not even going to touch your conceit that knowing anything about digital and knowing anything about art in general are mutually exclusive- that's just too retarded for me right now.
Your high school's Basket Weaving 101 might have been taught by a sculptor, but real art classes are about technique. Art classes aren't there to teach you vanishing perspective, they're there to teach you how to turn a bunch of pigments or a sheet of plastic-bonded silver and light or a bunch of dead pixels into something that looks like something- the things you need to be taught, can't just learn on your own. The rules of perspective, proportion, and lighting are the tiniest part of what it is to be an artist in any format, the stuff of maybe one class period apiece, and far better learned by experience anyway. Knowing the rules of proportions is great- but it doesn't do you much good in a 3D modelling course if you're mystified by a damn tab bar. Teachers who don't know how to handle the specific medium they're dealing in are next to useless. Always have been, always will be.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

I might add that traditional art was being killed by the universities, long before even digital competition became noticeable. Take this friend of mine who taught herself painting when she was a little girl, and came to the big city to go to Arts School, at a reputable university, and after 4 years of hard work, apartment sharing, and working under the table to make ends meet as a student, quit. Yep. She was sick of getting no techniques whatsoever taught to her, and instead having to learn all the stupid, pseudophilosophical subjects, which amount to nothing more than dribble --only of benefit to art critics, who need the abstruse vocabulary in order to write much without saying a thing. So, yeah, for the past 10 or 15, art's been dead, unless taught clandestinely, since the masters of the old school didn't want to share their techniques with the invading hords of students, and therefore designed the curriculms in such a way as to ensure that only students that thought the same way as them would, at the masters levels, get a miserable hand me down of techniques taught. Serves them well.
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Post by Ryder P. Moses »

Yeah, that's what happens if you don't go to a really good arts school. They tend to be either the greatest thing ever or a complete waste of time. Colleges, particularly liberal arts colleges, don't really know how to teach art, so they hire some random dude to teach art history, and maybe walk the kids through how to work in all the major media badly. At best, they're as good as a decent high school arts course- at worst, yeah, they're basically Art Snobbery 101 without teaching the kids any actual talent to go along with their new pretensions. The real arts schools tend to be more like trade schools (that's what they are, really), taught by professionals currently making a living from the very field they teach, highly specialized, and often aren't even degree-offering full-term colleges.

It's this wierd idea non-artists have about art, I think, that it's some magic rarefied plane of thought that can't actually be learned and comes in more of a divine-inspiration form. So, they don't teach the skills necessary for doing art well like they would for doing math or medicine or even writing, they just teach the kids random things tangentially related to art and try to get them to act like artists and hope they develop artistic skill through some kind of magical osmosis.
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Post by zaydana »

Ryder - i've gotta ask, but have you ever been to one of these arts colleges you seem to know all so much about?
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Post by Oblivion »

8)
That's not a debate these days.
I'm good on pen and paper but I know I'll never succeed (financially, as that is what seems to be the most important thing for you people) if I can't learn 3d modelling. But I have no plan to go to school to learn art. I just know that 4 or 5 years from now, I would have learned most of those things by my own anyway. Exclusive art colleges? I think those things benefit you by giving their names to your resume. Artists who thrive in colleges simply find their muse there, and vice versa. When I don't like to be artistic, i am NOT. as simple as that. Being artistic is not a divine gift (case aside, I'm agnostic leaning to atheism :)). More like early childhood impression. My sister drew/painted well, and imitating her as a child has slowly changed my primitive doodles to something decent as time passed. So I believe art can be learned and taught as well. But I have absolutely no idea how to do that. As far as I have experienced "art" teachers are better off teaching factory workers how to mass-assemble toy barbies. But I do believe there are real art teachers out there who can truly be helpful.

Aa for CG replacing traditional art, that is not a question of the new kicking the old out of business but more like a change of media. Art is not restricted to those hand-made, but a certain value is placed on the effort (what we call in filipino - "hago") in creating something unique. Something in CG lessens its value to our eyes... perhaps it is the knowledge that with a simple click we can make a thousand more versions of it. However, this property is exactly why it is replacing traditional art in commercial usage.
But a good piece of art wether created by a paintbrush or by a mouse is still a good piece of art.

Everyone has their own idea about art. But I know what MINE is. When I see Dali's Persistence Of Time, I see art. When I see a good movie sequence ingame (i.e. Homeworld 2), I see art. I do not see the difference between what is CG and what is hand-made. What matters is that I appreciate the images. (...I'm talking about ART here, not just ad media, though some ads are worthy of being called art :)...) I know you have different tastes in what YOU might call "art". You may for example like Cubism or just plain random sprinkling of paint like Pollock's (which I hate. kill me. :lol: ). The images must evoke some kind of emotion in you. And it is up to you what emotion you find to be the most pleasurable. Be it sadness, anger, humor, shock, etc.

However, I am not a professional. And somehow, I do not like the idea of seeing the dollar signs first before the artwork. People will buy a piece of junk artwork for a lot of money because everybody else wants to buy it. Soemone will pronounce something as "Simply Magnificent" and bingo it's worth millions. etc. Elitism, I believe it is called?? I do not like art critics or whatever you call them in your countries. Nobody can grade art.

However, as belonging to a different culture, I find some of the things you find "artistic" to be more or less alien. I already mentioned abstract (they even had the arrogance to call it reflex or somesuch art) art. I mean how could you call something, that inspires you NOT to think, art? Yet others - repeated imagery, images of commercial foodstuff, what you call pop art? What has happened to you people? It must come from being spoiled by your societies. Boredom can make you do anything. :) I know originality is a big factor. And CG is making new ways of expressing artistry. But... making novel art simply for the sake of being novel is not art but a novelty. :)

P.S. Pardon mistakes in spelling, grammar, metaphors, etc. I AM NOT a native english speaker. :)
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

@zydana - No, he likely hasn't, hence me taking his argument about as seriously as I'd take a child's. And also why I'm not wasting forum space typing a reply to his long winded second post.

(Full disclosure - I received full scholarships to the University of Ottawa and Carleton University's art programs. I turned both down to presue a carreer in computer science.)

@chuck - Art as a whole has been cannibalizing itself in the name of fanancial success for quite some time now. It's a societial flaw in the capitalist society - innovation and creativity often is stifled because that is not what makes money, rather, it is those that cater to the obsessive whims of the many that make the money. Often what they want is simply more of the latest trend.

@oblivion - Very well put. That's a very well thought out of my argument about mediums. They are simply a means to an end - the end being the expression of whatever it is that the artist intends to express.
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Post by Ryder P. Moses »

Zaydana: Oh boy, time for the credentials pissing match in the OMG INTERNET DEBATE, is it? Jesus fuck, you guys are tiresome.

Anyway, yes. I've taken a few courses at the Santa Fe Workshops and I'm planning to be taking more, and I come from a family of sculptors and painters (and one programmer, but we don't talk about him). I've followed the state of art education closely for the past couple years, because I'm a photographer who wanted to be an illustrator but lacked any kind of basic ability in the latter, and pretty much became a conceptart groupie. I've had traditional drawing courses good and bad, seen quite enough of the digital arts courses both bad and worse, despaired of getting an arts degree that meant anything- doubly so since going to a college that knows shit about art and going to a college that knows shit about anything else are apparently mutually exlusive.

And now NOBODY KAN ARGUE MY OPINYAN BEKOS I HAVE SOME BASIK HISTRY IN DA FIELD, right? Because it's totally not like just taking a glance through any of the professional online arts communities wouldn't tell you the exact same thing in fifteen minutes I've learned in five years. Oh no, wait, here comes along someone who TAUGHT A COURSE! Surely his take on the situation is the Only Valid one, and the ability of anyone else to form a coherent argument on the subject or observe the quite obvious phenomenon is completely irrelevant before his tangentially relevant experience!



Oblivion: Yeah, item for item CG prints are worth less. But for the commercial and mass market (where the real money is in art), this is sort of an advantage for the digital side- again, the parallel between 35mm and medium-format comes to mind. 35mm is much, much cheaper, both to make and buy, which means that a whole new market is opened up of those who would buy art but are turned off by a $500 price tag for a pretty picture- or those who'd be willing to pay $500 but all told are willing to settle for their second choice at $50. People like art made using traditional methods better than new ones (especially in fields like drawing, where pencil-on-paper objectively looks far better), but their preference in artforms is often outweighed by their preference for price-saving. There'll always be a niche for most traditional art methods, but in the future it'll be just that- a niche- and right now we've got a whole generation of traditional-only artists who came out of RISD or SCAD expecting to have the entire field to themselves. The bitterness of the older and less adaptable ones is quite understandable. Especially since right now even the high-profile collector's market that you talk about is closed to many of them- to get in there, where you might sell one picture a year but it'll go for $50,000, you have to be using really archaic methods of artistry- silver prints and handmade oils on woodblock and materials twenty people in the world know how to use and which cost a tenth of that $50,000 alone. And since that market operates like stocks have to have a brand name, which the average dude, sadly, does not.

I wish I had a brand name.

Agreed on the awfulness of most of the postmodernist stuff and crassness of the collector's market that supports much of it- as I look at more and more abstract art I'm starting to really appreciate some of it, there's some damn cool concepts in there- but then there's also a lot of awful shite that seems to be leeching off the gullibility of the public.
Last edited by Ryder P. Moses on Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by prolog »

Privateer Ferrius wrote: (Full disclosure - I received full scholarships to the University of Ottawa and Carleton University's art programs. I turned both down to presue a carreer in computer science.)
Heh. Slightly off topic, I'm pursuing my doctoral degree in CS from the latter at the moment. :)
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

prolog wrote:
Privateer Ferrius wrote: (Full disclosure - I received full scholarships to the University of Ottawa and Carleton University's art programs. I turned both down to presue a carreer in computer science.)
Heh. Slightly off topic, I'm pursuing my doctoral degree in CS from the latter at the moment. :)
Hah! I might just know you and not know it! What year are you on? I've actually been mixing C.U. and Algonquin (going with whatever my pocketbook can afford come the semester) - so I've been around a bit :)

@Ryder - I know what you mean about modern art. There's some good stuff out there, that you can tell actually had some deep thought put into it, but 90% of it is just utter crap.
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Post by klauss »

Well... we (as in our family) have been looking for an arts school for long years. Nothing found.

Most of the renowned schools are crap, mostly training art critics (as was said earlier), rather than teaching any kind of arts form.

In our experience (us as helpers in our sister's search - big family, yes) we've come to realize that the old way of teaching art is still the only way one may actually learn the craft: find a "master" - someone with utter knowledge about the art form in which one's interested - and beg him to teach you.

There are a few schools that have such masters teaching in their classes - usually unknown, niche schools. Because such masters have no degree of any kind.

In fact, our government is pushing towards giving "arts" "university" status, which just sucks. Because that would mean someone would need a degree, imparted by one such university, in order to teach arts. And most artists either learnt by themselves, or from some other master that preceded them - so no "art degree". Besides, "university" is crowded with "art history" "art philosophy" "art mumbo jumbo" and totally devoid of "art practice". Even "aesthetics", a subject that would make someone think is vaguely related to practice (like how to make something pleasant aesthetically) is just more... as we call it in Spanish... "Chamullo". (loosely translated as "blah").

Furthermore... that would enforce the "you need highschool to get into the uni" rule, which would make people have to wait until they're too old to even start learning. An artist is bred... from day one... you wait until he's 18 and you've waited too long. And that's what they're trying to do.

Correction, that's what they did: our conservatory has become that already - and I tell you, no musician comes out of it, that didn't go in already being a musician.
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

Whereabouts are you located anyways, Klauss? Portugal?

I ask because I know of a few good art schools that have done well by friends of mine in North America.
In our experience (us as helpers in our sister's search - big family, yes) we've come to realize that the old way of teaching art is still the only way one may actually learn the craft: find a "master" - someone with utter knowledge about the art form in which one's interested - and beg him to teach you.
Agreed - for all the art classes I've had, the most beneficial teaching I;ve ever received is the instuction I had from Justin Durban in composition, the traditional art instruction I had from Reena Lysander and Hannah Knight, and the digital art teachings I've gleamed from Greg Martin.

Art schools have people who teach for a living - and the upshot of that is that they're not making art. And if you're not producing, you're never going to push your boundaries. That's not to say that you'er not going to find good artists in these places, but they're just as rare as musicians from your conservatories, Klauss ;)
Last edited by Privateer Ferrius on Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by klauss »

Privateer Ferrius wrote:@Ryder - I know what you mean about modern art. There's some good stuff out there, that you can tell actually had some deep thought put into it, but 90% of it is just utter crap.
There's a reason to it.
Good tools make it easier both for the amateur and the professional. That means more "barely acceptable" work comes out of the hands of amateurs. So, the market gets flooded with amateur work, rather than professional (or skilled) work.

It's the ever-present jinx on good tools: they both expose the skilled in the artist, and the lack of skill in the non-artist.

(but the world is flooded with non-artists, so the end result is a marked downgrade of the quality of work in the market - but the market is a commercial consideration, so it shouldn't bother artists - but it does, artists take it personal when people butcher their art form).
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Post by klauss »

Privateer Ferrius wrote:Whereabouts are you located anyways, Klauss? Portugal?
Buenos Aires, Argentina.
I thought it was on my profile (but it isn't).
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Post by Privateer Ferrius »

@Ryder: And that's something I can understand. There are people out there that can do some quality digital art, for example take the work of my composition idol Justin Durban (example), who could never really make much of their art because they're constantly undercut by 'designers' with photoshop wo'd sell their 'skills' (or lack thereof) for much cheaper.

@Klauss: Ah. Was I wrong in thinking it's Portugeese I read? (in the sig, I mean)

I don't know what it's like in terms of academia over there, wish I did to be of assistance, but it doesn't sound very good :? My apologies.

Still, if you can find a good artist and approach them, many of them (here at least) dont mind showing you the ropes, so long as you're courteous and appreciative. Although, I was blessed with soem pretty nice people in the ones I asked for instruction, and patient ones, and not all artists are like that :)

I myself have had people ask me to show them the ropes, and while I would hardly call mmyself an artist, I do try to do my best by them :)
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klauss
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Post by klauss »

Privateer Ferrius wrote:@Klauss: Ah. Was I wrong in thinking it's Portugeese I read? (in the sig, I mean)
Portugese is very similar, but it's not. It's spanish. Archaic spanish, actually. (because of "Oid", which is currently "Oigan" or "Oir", depending on the use - that line is a quote of our National Anthem, and an inside joke among my family/friends).
Privateer Ferrius wrote:Still, if you can find a good artist and approach them, many of them (here at least) dont mind showing you the ropes, so long as you're courteous and appreciative. Although, I was blessed with soem pretty nice people in the ones I asked for instruction, and patient ones, and not all artists are like that :)
We found some (a group), but weren't willing to do it. Lack of time, they said. (which could possibly be).
What she's interested in is cartoon animation. She's already found a teacher in Comics, which is close, but markedly different. The real problem is that cartoon animation is quite out of practice over here. There is only one commercially-viable (read as: that I know of) cartoon movie that was produced in recent years, which implies very few people in the area. I guess she'll have to travel to get any kind of tutoring.
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