Food for Thought

[Privateer Ferrius]

That depends on what kind of cartoons you're talking about I suppose. Anyone that's experienced though is likely to be working ... although that's not neccesarily a bar unless they got shafted with contract terms. (I read a story some time ago about a US studio that didn't allow artists to teach students. For shame!)

It's a shame though. She may have to do what I did, and just find a bunch of sources, and imitate, that is to say, teaching yourself. Imitating other's art is an excellent art learning tool - just don't try to pass it as your own creation unless you want to get eaten alive. (Everyone's a critic.)

Still, a shame that she can't find someone to teach her. Although, my advice would be not to set your sights specifially on any one field - you can always learn tons of things to carry over to another field. And the basics - shapes, perspective, lighting, depth perception, etc - are things you could learn from anyone with experience in any visual art field.

[Ryder P. Moses]

Klauss: It's too bad going to one of the little master-taught schools isn't an option. If drawing is anything like photography, though, the best chance is not to seek someone willing to teach (an idea that'd horrify any career-minded person), but to look for a job as an assistant for some independent guy or studio. He gets someone who knows the ropes acceptably to do the drudge work on pieces, fetch him meals and equipment, and put up with his insufferable personality- she gets to watch and learn, gets the contacts she'll need to make a living, and a maybe a tiny pittance of a salary. Yeah, your odds of finding a pro willing to take the time out of his or her work to teach some kid aren't high- there are far better-paying, prestigious, and less frustrating things they could be doing- but if you present it as a situation where you're providing them with a service, they might become more amenable. Hell, I've gotten offers from friends of friends without even seriously looking.

That, or she could head on up here, where there's more high-grade art schools than there are jobs.

[Privateer Ferrius]

That, or she could head on up here, where there's more high-grade art schools than there are jobs.

It's funny because its oh so true.

[klauss]

If drawing is anything like photography, though, the best chance is not to seek someone willing to teach (an idea that'd horrify any career-minded person), but to look for a job as an assistant for some independent guy or studio.

That case was the group I was talking about.
They work under contract for Cartoon Network - and she was referred to them by a friend of both, yet they didn't take her. I guess they were really on a tight schedule already... who knows... because the mutual friend said they do normally take apprentices.

[Privateer Ferrius]

That sucks. Try looking into the independent scene. I myself was quite surprised at the amount and quality of independant artists myself. The two best in the city were both my mentors

Just takes some persistence, I think. Keep seeking after it, and if it's meant to be, it'll be.

[prolog]

Hah! I might just know you and not know it! What year are you on? I've actually been mixing C.U. and Algonquin (going with whatever my pocketbook can afford come the semester) - so I've been around a bit

I'm in my first year. I've just finished doing a bunch of required classes, so I can finally get into proper research again. I've missed that - it was the best part of my master's, getting published and getting to present my work to real academics.

[chuck_starchaser]

In fact, our government is pushing towards giving "arts" "university" status, which just sucks. Because that would mean someone would need a degree, imparted by one such university, in order to teach arts. And most artists either learnt by themselves, or from some other master that preceded them - so no "art degree". Besides, "university" is crowded with "art history" "art philosophy" "art mumbo jumbo" and totally devoid of "art practice". Even "aesthetics", a subject that would make someone think is vaguely related to practice (like how to make something pleasant aesthetically) is just more... as we call it in Spanish... "Chamullo". (loosely translated as "blah").

Furthermore... that would enforce the "you need highschool to get into the uni" rule, which would make people have to wait until they're too old to even start learning. An artist is bred... from day one... you wait until he's 18 and you've waited too long. And that's what they're trying to do.

Correction, that's what they did: our conservatory has become that already - and I tell you, no musician comes out of it, that didn't go in already being a musician.

And, by the way, same thing applies to all things taught at universities. If you came to me asking me to teach you electronics, I'd probably begin by depicting electrons to you in a way you can form a useful visualization. I'd compare current in Amps to water flow in a pipe measured in gallons per minute; and voltage in Volts, to water pressure in a pipe, measured in pounds per square inch. In problably 1 or two hours, I could have taught you all the basics, Ohm's Law, resistance, capacitance, inductance, and the beginnings of the transistor. Tomorrow, I'd teach you the rest of how a transistor works, basic amplifier circuits, digital circuits basics...
Probably in a month, you'd know all you need to design electronics.
Instead, we got the educational bureaucracies looking at ways how to make concepts the hardest to grasp, most boring way to convey them, in order to stretch the process for years, charge unconscionable amounts of money for that teaching, and graduates know nothing. We get engineers, sometimes, where I work, that don't know the difference between putting a resistor in series with a transistor's collector, on with its emitter. None of them has a "feeling" for electronics. None. They need to look at formulas, and can only grasp symbolic proofs, but can't 'visualize' what's going on.

Or take something like Philosophy. Had this friend at one time; alcoholic, a psychological wreak of a guy, who at the age of 45 still couldn't get over some girl he met in his 20's, and to whom he never spoke more than 5 words. Broke, still dependent on his parents... I asked him "why don't you study something that has some practical usefulness?" His answer "I'm too old for that." So, "what are you gonna do when you graduate?" ... "I can then teach Philosophy".
And this is typical of what universities produce: uselessness that can in turn teach uselessness to yet another generation of students.

Of course, that all changes at Masters/Doctoral levels. But why? Why does it have to take so many years to get to do research? Curiosity is the essence of human intelligence; and kids are full of curiosity. But they are told "your ideas are unimportant unless you're a phd", and "your questions will be answered in due time, if you keep going to school; NOT now".

[klauss]

@chuck: I don't know... I get quite a lot from Uni in CS. Though I also study by myself. Perhaps it would be useless if I expected Uni to give me everything. Perhaps that's the trick: Uni, by itself, can't teach you. You have to study too - which means dig by your self into stuff that matters to you. Uni is just a guide, you do the rest.
But there are some careers, Uni isn't even a guide. Like in Arts. Well... it is a guide, but it guides you nowhere

[chuck_starchaser]

CS is a bit of an exception to the rule; people do get a lot out of cs here too. But electrical engineers come out utterly useless, more often than not knowing more cs than ee...
Anyways, my point was more about the way that universities are emotionally regarded as sort of "high ground", quasi-sacred institutions, unquestionable pillars of our society, when in reality they are as self-serving as any other bureaucracy. They've managed to pull the wool over the eyes of political institutions in order to secure for themselves a legalized monopoly on "knowledge certification", and they can't even do a half-assed job at making sure they certify only those who know something...

[prolog]

Of course, that all changes at Masters/Doctoral levels. But why? Why does it have to take so many years to get to do research? Curiosity is the essence of human intelligence; and kids are full of curiosity. But they are told "your ideas are unimportant unless you're a phd", and "your questions will be answered in due time, if you keep going to school; NOT now".

Well, it doesn't necessarily. Part of the requirements of my bachelor's, since I wanted honours status, was to research and write an undergraduate thesis. So I suppose it depends on the program, but you can certainly be researching and publishing as a BA/BSc student. I had a friend who presented a co-authored paper when she was in her third year of a psychology degree (granted, she's brilliant, and makes me look like a mental midget, but I just wanted to use that as an example to show that it can be done).

[Oblivion]

Sorry for the mistranslation. I meant Salvador Dali's Persistence of Memory, not time. Though memory is past time.

Ferrius:

They are simply a means to an end

Exactly. At least I feel that way. Off-topic: Ferrius means "Iron" right?

Ryder:

I wish I had a brand name.

Agreed on the awfulness of most of the postmodernist stuff and crassness of the collector's market that supports much of it- as I look at more and more abstract art I'm starting to really appreciate some of it, there's some damn cool concepts in there- but then there's also a lot of awful shite that seems to be leeching off the gullibility of the public.

Yeah. me too.Then I could say.. "I'm Picasso" and get something like..
"THE Picasso??!"
As if art needs status...
Abstract art, the concept of being totally oblivious of the subject of your art while creating it and then giving it cool names like "Woman bathing in her undies." Critics would snap it up and more will sell like pancakes. No offense to Pollock fans out there, but I once heard his "explanation" (On MS Encarta. ) of why he does the "sprinkle-here-and-there" art; and the conceit sickened me. It's bad enough that he does it, but to actually have the arrogance to pretend to be knowledgeable about NOTHING, is too much.

My tastes are more on dreamlike images. Hoping others out there can see them. Dali, Magritte, Picasso (sometimes..), Bosch (I'm not sure that's the spelling), Ghost In The Shell (That's an anime. ), Angels and Demons in past and modern art, Space, Stars, even the grass on our lawn when I feel like it. Art should not be about names, and money. They have to deserve it.

That's why I'm also taking Comp Sci instead of a Uni Arts course. Though I'm only still in my first year. I will learn because I want to.

Senor Kulas:

that would mean someone would need a degree, imparted by one such university, in order to teach arts.

chuck:

Curiosity is the essence of human intelligence; and kids are full of curiosity. But they are told "your ideas are unimportant unless you're a phd", and "your questions will be answered in due time, if you keep going to school; NOT now".

Names... I know people hear who got PhDs on their surnames and still don't know crap about their fields. But then again it's hard for a Uni to find teachers for art anyway.
more...

An artist is bred... from day one... you wait until he's 18 and you've waited too long.

I don't know of anyone who became an artist solely because he/she went to a university. I think it has something to do with a child's ability to easily make neural connections. Kind of like, why it get's harder to learn new languages as you get older. And i'm not sure you can really learn by apprenticeship in art unless you were already artistic to begin with.

Today's educational systems bog us down more than it helps us. But what else can we do? A truly utopian educational system would only serve to alienate those who fail utterly at it. And by then, they would dream of reforms again. That's part of life.

The world is stupid, and I've come to accept it..

PS,Ferrius, durban was COOL
... I hope I could get half as good as they are someday... I'm still young. No hurry.

[Privateer Ferrius]

@Oblivion: J isnt much older than I, and I'm only 20

Also, Ferrus is Iron. I actually didn't intend that connection or similarity. It was just a random nonsense word that came to me when trying to name my BattleTech character, and ended up being my sci-fi characters' name

@Chuck: Not everyone likes to be told it, but appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. You should point that out next time someone brings up something like that

[klauss]

The world is stupid, and I've come to accept it..

Sooo true that you might get banned (in life, not the forums) by saying it

People send odd looks at me when I say it.

[prolog]

And i'm not sure you can really learn by apprenticeship in art unless you were already artistic to begin with.

Very true. I'm very aural-focused, but when it comes to visual things, I'm a real dunderhead. If I were apprenticed to the greatest artist in the world, I'd still be making stick figures ten years later.

[Privateer Ferrius]

The world is stupid, and I've come to accept it..

Sooo true that you might get banned (in life, not the forums) by saying it

People send odd looks at me when I say it.

Oh? I thought they just looked at me like that because I'm not wearing what they are Lol

[GAlex]

arghh !

when I first read this thread I thought you were joking.

glad to know that university is not everywere as you depict !

I've studied Economics here, in Italy, and for the sake of myself followed the first two year of matemathics and the first of physics, then I graduate in economics. Here we all know that university forms us, i.e. do not teach us how to do things, it only give us the knowledge to do things, many things. doing something or not, or what to do is to us to decide. as absurd, you can graduate in geology and than go work for a financial istitution (like one of my collegue).

university's programs are wide and multi-disciplinary. in economics, i've studied sociology, matemathics, english, german, law and history, and all this is usefull if you want to understand that everything is a part of some bigger and more complex aspect, and everything shoul be put in its effective role.

I don't know if you'll understand me, since i lack the fraseology to explain my thoughts (I'm not mothertongue!)

[Oblivion]

@Ferrius - I am 20. Though I'm behind for most filipinos. We start college at 16. As I understand it, most westerners start college at 18, right? I wasted three years in BS Biology before finding my true calling.

@prolog everyone has his/her talents.

@klauss and @ferrius again. Fortunately I don't say it out loud. I'm thinking of moving out to Proxima Centauri... If only I can find someone to fix my darn flying saucer...

GALex:

I've studied Economics here, in Italy, and for the sake of myself followed the first two year of matemathics and the first of physics, then I graduate in economics. Here we all know that university forms us, i.e. do not teach us how to do things, it only give us the knowledge to do things, many things. doing something or not, or what to do is to us to decide. as absurd, you can graduate in geology and than go work for a financial istitution (like one of my collegue).

Same thing in universities here
Some people here actually study the easier courses as they can still find work unrelated to their field as long as they have a college diploma. However our curricula here is more rigid. We can't choose from as many subjects as you can out there.

As for "lack of fraseology", don't worry, English is a very cluttered language. And though I can be considered fluent at it, I still run into problems, now and then.