Towards a Better Interface

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:04 pm

Great taste. Those buttons are gorgeous. Can't wait for Ogre and bumpmaps/normal maps... What they might do for ships, if a button can look so much better with a groovie icon...

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:47 am

Updated again.

Of course it occurs to me that I need to fit in the category scroll buttons after I've used up nearly all the available space. Bah.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:22 am

Done. Here's the blank for whenever all this crap is working. Guess I've gotta assemble a whole bunch of control knob sprites now, but... bugger it, do it later.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:08 pm

LOL, I was waiting for someone to jump and say that rotary pots and switches with numbers around won't exist in the fourth millenium, but it hasn't happened yet.

They WILL exist; and be in fashion.

Technologic culture has been vilifying rotary pots for decades now, and trying to move away from them at any cost and for no reason. First attempt was by really pushing hard for linear pots, which are garbage, not just functionally but ergonomically as well.
Second attempt was with digital displays and keypads, like on microwave ovens, and one of these days the industry will realize that people like me would be willing to pay extra for rotary pots for time and temperature on those very microwave ovens, or whatever other appliances.
And there will be further attempts, but rotary pots and switches will prevail.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:35 pm

They'll exist in the future, they'll just be holograms.

And, yeah, well, potentiometers might not be the most likely control on a vending machine thingy (whatever the hell you'd call something that sells nuclear missiles), but they are the most space-efficient one. :wink:

While I agree that they're cool and all, I wish I find something that fit the visual style better. I wanted something with the possibility for keyboard entry like was suggested, a keypad that small would be unusable via mouse and probably illegible to anyone who didn't, y'know, design the thing, and a metal knob has too low contrast to see the numbers- without rearranging everything that's about as good as it gets.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:10 pm

Yeah, I was just making a general statement about pots and switches; not necessarily that I got the idea how it's used in this particular case.
Well, if we look at present day kiosks, they usually have a touch sensitive interface. For buying and selling, what I would think good ergonomical design is if the buy and sell buttons were sticky, so you turn buy mode on and you click on various items to buy. Middle click to buy 10. Right-click to buy 100.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:50 am

That seems overly counterintuitive and prone to being frustrating.
The only things that are bought in quantities of 100 are swarm missiles, anyway, and for those people would generally just wanna fill 'er up.

The idea with the pot there is that by clicking on the appropriate part of the wheel (or pressing the appropriate key, with 0 equalling ten and... something equalling maximum possible) it "turns" the knob setting the number to buy or sell, which you then confirm by hitting the "buy" or "sell" button. I guess really the values of one, five, ten, and maximum that I used for the cargo are really all that's necessary, I just wanted to try something different. I should go back to the cargo box thingy, then?

Ah well, hopefully before long we'll have left the clunky 2D interface for shipmods behind anyway.

Also, any ideas for the news interface? I've got a pretty solid idea of what the layout and functions are going to be, I just can't decide on a visual style for it. Something a bit more modern, I think, like a touchscreen window, but that might look too dull...

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:06 am

I got too many ideas for the news iface.

This has all got to do with a very old thread in the wcu forum. I put up a poll to see how many people would like to read magazines, and the result was unanimous: Everyone and their inlaws wants to read magazines.
So, the idea would be to have a newsstand. Doesn't have to look exactly like a newsstand next to a subway entrance in Manhattan, of course; a futuristic newsstand; but a newsstand; with mags. Again, the mags could be memory crystals you feed to your mag reader; but mags, anyways. In addition to a free of charge news ticker you can gock at, of course. Or again, the whole newsstand could be electronic and be in your ship, or part of your pda. Whatever. But, functionally, the idea is that you can buy mags, subscribe to mags, or browse through old mags you already have for an article or ad you remember having seen that could offer a clue to the mystery you're trying to solve.
And then an iface for reading a mag. I'd really like it if it could look like a real mag; even if it's a "hologram" :-/

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:48 am

That's... stretching the scope of this project a bit. I'm trying to do interfaces that are usable without drastic alteration of the existing scripts, because honestly anything more ambitious just won't ever get used. What you're talking about implies multiple layered interfaces, fancy text tricks, heavy scripting or content control, to format and add magazine-style fillers (images and crap), and if you want it to look good, animation.

A Transmetropolitan-style newsreader could be doable, sort of an elaborated Palm Pilotty thing, but that's about as magazinish as it'll go.
Something making use of those monitor banks seen in every colony would be ideal, I think- the how is the question, since I wanna kinda steer clear of just plopping down a modified Windows interface but that's... pretty much the most effective way to do it.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:13 am

Yeah, I was just taking a shot, see what you might come up with

NO MFC, please

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:16 am

Post by **loki1950** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:23 am

Ms foundation class

Enjoy the Choice

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:56 pm

Chuck, this thing seems to go back to the idea of the information mega highway for the universe we were talking about. Along with strategic information and stock trading the highway will carry things like news, entertainment (e-zines etc). A terminal would function like a normal computer and depending on what services you which to acces different interfaces could be used. It would be fun to have some form of web browser for it etc. The only problem being that once you start on something like this it could end up consuming a lot of time and energy because the concept is limitless.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:16 pm

@Ryder:
MFC stands for Microstuff Phoundation Klazzes; it's the library they've been pushing up everybody's noses; their response to OWL, (object window library), by semantic was it?... No, Borland; which was good.. so they put bugs in their dll's to make owl fail, and they only knew how to get around those bugs with mfc; and mfc is so convoluted and forces so many dependencies with your app, once you write an app with it you can't port it to any other os; you have to start from scratch. Anyway, you were saying you might create like a windows iface, so I joked 'make sure it doesn't use mfc'.

@Chrisdn:
Yeah, I was thinking about that, in fact, when I said 'maybe a computer in your ship or pda'.

@All:
Maybe we should have a 3D model of a "reader"... Something that looks like an open magazine, and closes like a laptop, and the pages are active; they look like paper, but can change; so a permanent open mag shape, with a fixed hi rez normal map that makes it look like paper, slightly glossy but not too much, and all we need to put in it is hypertext functionality, so you can click on links... No, we need forms, buttons... Well, may sound like much but, on the other hand, we could do *Everything* through this device.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:34 pm

Chuck: Procedural textures dynamically generated ingame? 3D universal interfaces? You're still going way, way beyond any feasible scope of this project, and for very little return.

To continue what I was saying before, I can't code for shit. We've got like three active coders, and they're each currently busy with some gigantic complicated section of the project that in any sane development effort would be being done by about half a dozen people. They've been working on the same stuff since before I joined up here. The game is so incomplete as to be playable in only the most technical sense. There's a push to do everything from making planets modeled down to base details to adding a whole new game to the existing one. I am not going to operate with the expectation that someone will take the time to add a whole complicated module to the game just to make the interface look very slightly fancier any time in the near future.

If you're volunteering to construct the gigantic backends for all this stuff, hey, groovy, I've got some ideas for what could be done with a more elaborate interface code too. If not, I'm sticking to stuff that's doable with a fairly simple Python script, and at most leaving some stuff in that can be upgraded later should anyone have way too much time on their hands. I'm trying to make something that the Vegastrike project can actually use; I seem to be the only artist doing so.

Post by **klauss** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:01 am

You can (and should) do much of that (not all) in python right now with some clever coding. In fact, I'm gonna write a library (in python) for that kind of interfaces. So, when I have that, and commit it, you'll be able to use it to quickly generate complex interfaces.

That said... the big thing you can't do, but is no big deal, is map a dynamic texture in a 3D mesh (right now). But with the interface coded to render directly on screen, after the Ogre port is finished (hopefully soonish), the transition to dynamic texture on 3D object would be a piece of cake, because you wouldn't have to change interface code, only change the rendering target.

So... concentrate on that - the main interface. The rest of the fancy stuff can wait.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:46 am

Who can? Me? 'Cause, uh, hate to break it to you, but I'm barely competent enough to do a "hello world" print in C++ and have neither the time nor inclination to get started in any new languages. Especially ones of questionable usefulness outside of one computer game. I don't know why y'all decided using fuckin' Python was a good idea but if you want people who can code modules you're gonna have to find some dudes who know Python somewhere, not make coders out of the artists.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:56 am

I think Klauss meant to write "You should be able to do that now in Python..", but was thinking faster than his fingers could type.
Yeah, Ryder, putting dynamic textures on 3D surfaces is coming. In fact, the interface for that, for now, is to use a separate material for the surface taking in the dynamic texture.
And as far as hypertexting, the engine already has an XML parser. I think what's needed from us artists (not me really) is the models, the non-dynamic texture surface textures, and any mix-in, non-dynamic portions needed for the dynamic textures.
That's my take, anyways.

Post by **klauss** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:05 am

Ryder P. Moses wrote:Who can? Me? 'Cause, uh, hate to break it to you, but I'm barely competent enough to do a "hello world" print in C++ and have neither the time nor inclination to get started in any new languages. Especially ones of questionable usefulness outside of one computer game. I don't know why y'all decided using fuckin' Python was a good idea but if you want people who can code modules you're gonna have to find some dudes who know Python somewhere, not make coders out of the artists.

Wooo... got angry?
Anyway... the library would read XML files with the interface description.
No python needed.

The idea is that, eventually, from python, you could randomly generate those XML files and store them in the home folder, much like autogen, and have automatically generated random bases.

(and you means - y'all - a general pronoun as in "anyone who gets to doing that")

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:22 pm

Nice one Klauss He H

st_jack · Post by **st_jack** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:08 am

interfaces should vary depending on the wealth of a system. Remember, even in the future, the economy will determine the use of technology.

Oblivion · Post by **Oblivion** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:41 pm

Ryder, that interface was beautiful! The current interface reminds me too much of a badly layouted program output in a command screen.

Hope it gets integrated. Holo is not too practical as It's tires the eyes looking at them.

There's a study that proves a drawing is easier for a human to grasp depth and etc. than a photograph. Cartoons and anime etc.

Anyway a flat "tablet" as your interface looks like would be what a pilot would carry, most probably. Holos would be for Communications, ads, etc.
Nice work.

I'll try to offer some ideas on a news interface (with images, hopefully)

charlieg · Post by **charlieg** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:42 pm

What's the score on getting this from concept-to-game? Is there any movement?

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:32 pm

Wouldn't count on it. I don't think anybody's actually doing anything about the backend and I decided to do a little more work on the modular station project thingy before continuing this any further.

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:16 am

I'm not too hot about having pre-rendered objects visible within the interface. It's one of those cases where things could be abstracted instead of simulated.

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