Post your space station concepts and designs

Post by **klauss** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:13 am

@Ryder: Take a look at Doom3, will you? You're probably not noticing the full power of normal maps. Manually, you can't do much. But automatic baking has a level of precision that allows you to do a lot. Of course, you won't be able to do everything, but you will be able to have complex curved surfaces, some small greebles translated into the normalmap, even some kind of geometry gets very efficiently emulated. Basically, whatever kind of detail that does not produce a noticeable silohuete (spelling?) from any angle is suitable to be replaced by a normalmap - but you have to bake the normalmap, otherwise you just won't be able to do it. Perhaps you can approximate it, but those tools give much more precision, and allow more things to be achieved.
I can't really explain it all... you have to see for yourself. Take a look at Doom3 models - compare the level of apparent detail to the real detail in the geometry, and you'll see what I mean.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:03 am

...And you really think these subtle advantages are worth the massive increase in workload they involve?

ID Software can use whatever work-intensive and wasteful techniques they like- they've got a bigger budget than some third-world countries and a seller's market for artist positions. Vega Strike can barely keep workers around for more than a week, and has like a dozen models ingame that aren't awful placeholders. Do you really have no idea what the difference is between making a texture and building a million-plus poly, clean-geometry model?

forlarren · Post by **forlarren** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:58 am

More and more it seems that its the textures that are limiting GFX cards. They only have so much ram and thats it. It is not very uncommon at all to have a vid card with only 64 megs of ram or less for people with intergrated GFX (desktop and laptop). But adding a few extra triangles just makes the CPU work a bit harder. Its not such a hard limit like RAM. Heck Im thinking about overclocking my boards, they are getting old (GeForce 4 TI 4600 ultra agp, and GeForce 5700LE PCI) so frying them out wouldn't really shed a tear or anything but getting a few months of work out of them would help out my bank account. Both of these cards choak on textures long before geometry. And as cards get newer and newer this just becomes more and more true. Anyway Im no expert and really shouldn't be arguing any points with people much more expert then I but thats my 2 cents for what its worth.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:41 am

...Which is pretty funny, considering how this entire generation of graphic artists has spent the past decade or so training specifically to leave as much as possible out of mesh and it all into textures. Ever notice how the first thing everyone wants to know when they start making stuff here is what the poly limit is?

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:15 pm

Why don't you make a standard set of textures for everyone to use? Keep them relatively limited which should save on load speed to the Graphic processors RAM. I don't know much about it but I'd have thought that would work.

Any more station ideas?

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:25 pm

For each ship or unit you need a set of textures because each ship and unit UV-unwraps its own way. What we could have is a set of standards we could adhere to. I have a theory that the glow map, which carries radiosity baking, needs good color precision, but not much resolution; while the diffuse texture and specular map need considerably more resolution but could use less color precision. The normal map could use the highest resolution, but if we could use dUdV as opposed to the full normal, that'll be only two components per texel. And we could use a detail texture or detail dUdV and reduce the standard dUdV. So, for example, what I intend to try with the Bengal is:

Diffuse and specular:
1k x 1k rez, 5,5,5,1 pixel format (rgba), .dds filetype, uncompressed

Glow map:
512 x 512 rez, 8,8,8 format (RGB), .dds with compression, or jpg

dUdV map (or normal):
1k x 1k rez, 8,8 (dU,dV), .dds compressed

Detail dUdV:
256 x 256 rez, 8,8 (dU,dV), .dds compressed

...which is a lot less than the 2k x 2k, full precision RGB, .png format some people around here advocate for capships; --still a whopping 5 megs worth of textures when expanded for use in the videocard, but as modest as I can go. Now, that model, the Bengal, is high poly (over 50k tris), so we'll have a useful test of my theory that indeed textures, not polys, are the problem.

Post by **klauss** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:51 am

@Ryder: Subtle? You call that subtle? Ok... whatever, dude. It's a matter of opinion - do whatever you feel comfortable with, since I'm not a modeller, I wouldn't know.

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:42 am

I think most people, myself included, ask about poly counts becuase we are mainly amateurs doing this as a hobby and we'd like to know an upper limit of polys to work with. It's very easy to get carried away with a model and it helps to have a figure we can't exceed.

We know you're good with textures Ryder but alot of us aren't and lack the experience you have so how about not talking down to people...we're all trying to work towards the same goal, some people have different plans on how to get there is all.

Damn! this forum is supposed to be for new ideas and design concepts for space stations...not a bloody hissy match!

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:55 pm

A few screenshots of my shipyard.

Overall:

Rear views:

Main building structures:

Repairing constructions in the back for smaller ships:

Gonna add more geometry and details to the outer parts.
P.S Klauss, is it possible for me to test the models with stencil shadows myself?

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:37 pm

looks good...by the looks of it you coan fit multiple units together in modules. It would be great to have them in a ring. In the centre could be a large asteroid they harvest for raw materials. Is that the idea you have?

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:53 pm

Actually it all was made from one cube. I'll send it to you, so you can tweak it the way you like.

Post by **klauss** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:14 pm

In the interior, with all those extruded faces

- that I think are supposed to depict supporting platforms for workers, try thinning them, so they look less massive. Support sturctures of that kind usually are very weak, and built ad-hoc, and should look like it.

General appreciation: great.

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:26 pm

Actually, they were supposed to contain working robots

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:51 pm

Here's Kangaroo22's station textured and then rendered in Povray. All credit on this design must go to Kangaroo_22 as I have only added a couple of textures.

It will be part of the Atlantia thing we're working on. Part of the commissioning and decommisioning (comdcom) facility, essentially the main ship building and scrapping yard. Each unit will be arranged around a ring- 8 units overall. I will do a full working version when I get around to it but here is the inidividual unit as it stands.

You should just about be able to see some of the inner workings on the render below

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:28 pm

Here's a habitiat that'll go on the above comdcom station, planet ships, orbital platforms etc. The buildings are pretty basic right now but they will be elaborated on.
I am stuck on what colour the dome itself should be but if you have any suggestions please post them.

Kangaroo · Post by **Kangaroo** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:40 am

A few screenshots of a station. If anyone has any ideas of how is it used, please post them. I can only think of a multifunctional research base.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:50 am

Sorta a truck stop in space? Y'know, somewhere where short-range transports can offload goods for sale off-system, or big clumsy spaceships not really built for transatmospheric flight can do trade without having to land on a planet's surface. Somewhere where ships can repair and refuel and their crews can get a few hours' rest on the way to somewhere or other.

Post by **zaydana** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:50 pm

could just be me, but from the angle you have it on, it looks kinda like it would make a good frigate of some sort. If you kept the two sides you've shown the bottom, and change the top to make it a bit larger, it would be a nice long/skinny frigate. Just my opinion, tho.

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:02 pm

by the look of it I'd suggest a deep space communication and navcom relay station.

Ryder P. Moses · Post by **Ryder P. Moses** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:43 pm

Zaydana: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, it'd make a sweet ship, but then it occured to me that it really doesn't have a lot of actual visible cargo space so it'd need to be something more specialized.

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:14 pm

I could have sworn a frigate was a ship of war, not cargo

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:38 pm

Been playing about with materials in Povray and I know like the look of the 'glass' on the habitat. There's a sky sphere as a background here which is why you can see the the refraction through on the right hand side. I'm working on a nice star field background for the skysphere which should look sweet.
I've spent alot of time on the glass because these habitats will be pretty abundant in the Atlantia universe...on ships, stations etc so I wanted to get it right. I ain't done anything with the buildings yet but I'll get round to it at some point.

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:50 pm

Got the starscape now. Looks quite cool with the images reflecting off the surface of the 'glass'. Got one light in side the dome and one external. I was quite chuffed with it but let's see what you guys think.

charlieg · Post by **charlieg** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:16 pm

Ooo nice! The drop-shadow kinda ruins the atmosphere but otherwise it looks great.

chrisdn · Post by **chrisdn** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:47 pm

trying to work out how to stop specific objects from leaving a shadow in povray...no idea at all but god loves a tryer eh?

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