Logos (and I mean more than one)

[www2]

@zaydana
look good...
can your put layout (html and pix) in the topic?

Tip: use ajax and drop down menu that look professional...
about ajax dis is not necessary for curent state of the projet...
Ajax can we beter use if we got in a mmo game and a new site got open...

[zaydana]

good point there with the whiteness stuff, i'll have a go at fixing that. As for why I choose that ship - it was the only one in the screenshots section which was really oriented in the right direction, that I could see, anyhow. Any suggestions for other ships? Perhaps I could just use a [brigher than usual] starfield instead?

For the background being a bit bear, perhaps I could take one of the cubemap backgrounds and use that, of? Of course, with the approriate color and levels adjustments and all that. Problem is i'd either needs to fade it to black in the center, or find something tileable. Any suggestions for a tileable starfield which isn't too bland and where you can't see the tiling too obviosuly on 1024x768?

I do plan to make the bottom half of the site either lighter or darker (depends how bright starfields make the header). Of course, if the bottom is dark, i'll use very bright text. Coloured text is not an option, it just looks plain ugly.

Thanks for the comments, I love it when people are brutally honest

www2: atm theres no HTML, its just designing the website in photoshop. I actually do a lot of javascript work for clients (i'm a freelance coder), so I'll definitely look into using some in this site. As for AJAX tho, that isn't generally needed unless you are loading a lot of content on the fly - the only things I can think that would erally make it useful are either a full forum rewrite (yeah, right.) or some mods to the admin panel - the later of which is more a possibility but has too narrow a user-base to warrant wasting time on it.

When I actually get around to coding it up, you'll be able to get ur hands on the XHTML then. And, I promise it will be full XHTML 1.0 compatible, probably strict

[www2]

@zaydana

THX
i work now on a proto tipe database for the multyplay verson of vegastrike (openoffice and mysql)...
if i hef done i got to work for a fornt end site for the multyplay version of vegastrike php/mysql/html/xhtml
And i know that it is too early for dis projet...
I say that too early is beter than to late (the 80% + %80% rules)

[zaydana]

Heres version 2 of the header. I made the vegastrike text quite a bit brighter and gave little bits highlights, as well as changing the background. I don't know if that starfield exactly suits the title, but it sure looks better than nothingness, and gives the whole thing a bit of color. Also, the header's background is a lot blacker, which does make it nicer. I might see if I can add something to the page body's background, or might just leave it. Any suggestions?

[Ryder P. Moses]

Oooh, cool.

Maybe put the Aeran ship back in the title? Every forum on the Internet has a starfield theme, adding the spaceship (or a screenshot of a fleet, or something thematic like that) would give the header a bit of uniqueness.

[CoD]

Ehm... can I contribute?

What about something like these: http://cod.altervista.org/vegastrike/sc ... .php?img=2

[klauss]

Oooh, cool.

Maybe put the Aeran ship back in the title? Every forum on the Internet has a starfield theme, adding the spaceship (or a screenshot of a fleet, or something thematic like that) would give the header a bit of uniqueness.

I like that idea.
If you're patient (I would have to add such functionality to SystemExplorer), I could output such screenshot from the SystemExplorer, using the new Ogre engine, which would look cool.

Any specific layout?

[zaydana]

Klauss - that sounds great, I can be patient Umm, basically the layout I want is a ship which is facing in the same sort of orientation as the aeran one in the first draft, however I think i'd rather have a clyesdale or something, as its more recognisable as a ship imo, even when the colouring isn't that great.

Also, perhaps you could have the ship in front of a starfield as well? That starfield in my latest header is a photo from APOD I think we do need a background with stars - a ship is too empty. But it would be nice to use something from in-game.

[klauss]

Ok.

I have to add subunit parsing and specific placement to SystemExplorer to be able to do that. Perhaps also background setting, and so I can set whatever background I want. Also, I have to integrate everything in SE with the framework I'm working... so it'll be a while. A week or two, I guess... so keep thinking about it.

None of that is specific to taking screenshots... except specific placement, which I can live without... so anyone reading - I won't be wasting time

However, I think I'll just take a shot with an empty background, and set up an alpha layer so that you can compose your way into a background. Because setting up specific shots with specific backgrounds is unholily hard.

Do you have a link to the background? I'll need it at least for reflections.

[Zeog]

Very nice, zaydana! I like the fonts and the logo's brightness is now perfect.

But may I request an inverted version. Namely, white background with the Vega Strike in shades of black and gray? Just to have a look at it and maybe as an alternative. I'm personally not very fond of utterly black web sites, but found a bright background more pleasing to the eye.

[zaydana]

Zeog: ok, i'll see what I can do. I dunno how good the logo will look tho without being on a dark background.

Klauss: image is at http://zaydana.servebeer.com/dump/calif ... r_full.jpg. Srry bout the really slow upload speed, its kinda running off my home connection. If you feel like trawling through APOD for the past 3 months' photos you might find it there too :-p As you can see from the header, thats not exactly how it will look - i flip it and cut bits out and etc, but its good enough i hope.

[Halleck]

I've just had a long conversation about using the logo as an icon with zaydana... I'm still not convinced that it can adequately fulfill this role. I am including an edited down log of the chat here.

Before I do, though, I'd like to point out something I noticed in jackS first post:

It doesn't need to be as simple as the "lambda in circle" Halflife logo or that quake thingy - we can save that sort of fully iconic nature for more distilled versions of the logo (.. like actual icons ...).

I actually think that the logo should have been designed with these constraints in mind. I'm not referring to the text bits or anything, but specifically to the "distilled" emblem of the two curves and circle. I would still favor a logo that is evenly proportioned in height and width (meaning a rough circle in this case, not an oval) because of the issues presented when converting the logo to such a distilled and constrained format.

With out further ado, here is our conversation (I've highlighted my main points in bold).

[03:03] Halleck: did you see my mock up btw?
[03:03] zaydana: yeah...
[03:04] zaydana: hmm, i don't really like the letter as a logo thing, unless the letter is O :-p
[03:04] zaydana: personal opinion, I guess
[03:04] Halleck: well, it doesn't even have to be a letter
[03:04] Halleck: I just would prefer to have something spherical
[03:04] Halleck: better for program icons
[03:04] zaydana: ah k
[03:05] zaydana: i guess theres always going to be something which is better for this or that
[03:05] zaydana: you just gotta pick something and run with it.
[03:05] Halleck: yeah, but try making an icon with your logo and see how much space you can fill
[03:06] zaydana: how big is an icon?
[03:06] zaydana: i'll give it a shot :-p
[03:06] Halleck: i want to say 64x64?
[03:06] Halleck: it depends
[03:06] Halleck: as long as it's square
[03:09] zaydana: http://zaydana.servebeer.com/clients/ve ... t/icon.png
03:10] zaydana: of course, that icon needs a bit of smoothing out and all, but I think it works
[03:10] Halleck: okay, but try scaling it down...
[03:10] Halleck: and down...
[03:10] zaydana: ok...
[03:10] zaydana: lets see a 32x32 one
[03:11] Halleck: yes
[03:13] zaydana: Halleck - bear in mind that you can have seperate 32x32 and 64x64 ucibs
[03:13] zaydana: icons*
[03:13] Halleck: yes that's the point
[03:14] Halleck: so let's see a 32x32 program icon and a 16x16 favicon
[03:18] zaydana: http://zaydana.servebeer.com/clients/ve ... con-32.png [note: this image was at first just text with the letters "VS", but zaydana replaced it later]
[03:18] Halleck: you took the logo _out_?
[03:19] Halleck: i thought the whole point of a logo was to iconify our project
[03:20] zaydana: *resorts to pixelart*
[03:21] Halleck: now imagine how much easier this would be if your icon were spherical.
[03:22] Halleck: no wasted space... it could fill up the entire 32x32 area
[03:23] Halleck: which means, you could spend more pixels on it to make it look better for the program icon
[03:23] Halleck: see my point?
[03:26] zaydana: http://zaydana.servebeer.com/clients/ve ... con-16.png
[03:26] zaydana: that don't look bad tho.
[03:27] Halleck: it's allright, yes
[03:27] Halleck: what about the 32x32?
[03:28] zaydana: well, i'm not doing it right now
[03:28] zaydana: but it wouldn't be too hard to do
[03:28] Halleck: k sorry
[03:28] zaydana: theres no sense in letting things like sizes constrain the logo you use
[03:28] zaydana: you can always find a way to fit more stuff later on
[03:29] zaydana: make it bigger, different ways to draw it, etc.
[03:29] Halleck: uhhh... actually, I would argue that a logo that's gonna be used as a program icon needs to be designed with those constraints in mind
[03:29] Halleck: that's where most people are gonna see it, I think
[03:30] Halleck: The inherent problem with a logo that does not have equal height and width (non-spherical in this case) is that it inherently cannot fill up any square space, i.e. an icon
[03:32] zaydana: actually, in most things these days
[03:32] zaydana: program logos are going to be seen in 1. website art. 2. in-game art
[03:32] zaydana: 3. the box, reviews, etc.
[03:32] Halleck: 3. vegastrike has no box
03:32] zaydana: yes, true
[03:32] Halleck:
[03:32] zaydana: but 1 and 2 are still more important than any icon
[03:32] zaydana: look at most game icons
[03:32] Halleck: i disagree
[03:33] Halleck: a good logo should be good for ALL purposes
[03:33] Halleck: not designed for the web and squeezed into 32x32 format
[03:33] zaydana: its not squeezed in, it works just fine
[03:33] Halleck: can i see it then?
[03:33] zaydana: wasn't the 16x16 one enough?
[03:34] zaydana: a 32x32 one would be exactly the same, only larger so it would have more colors in it.
[03:34] Halleck: i'd really like to see the 32x32
[03:34] zaydana: *sigh*
[03:34] Halleck: if you can do it right
[03:34] Halleck: i will rest my case.
[03:34] zaydana: like i said, look at most game icons. At least half the 10 games on my desktop don't even use their logo as the icon
[03:34] zaydana: *goes back to photoshop*
[03:34] Halleck: then it's poor branding
[03:35] Halleck: how about some good examples... deus ex, bz2, half life
[03:35] zaydana: starcraft
[03:35] Halleck: meh
[03:35] zaydana: Dawn of War
[03:35] Halleck: starcraft doesn't have a logo
[03:35] Halleck: just text with a typographic treatment
[03:36] coppercore: yeah
[03:36] zaydana: Age of empires 2
[03:36] zaydana: the little helmet is only ever used in logos and small things
[03:36] zaydana: or is it? I can't remember
[03:36] Halleck: do those games actually have logos though?
[03:36] Halleck: i mean, symbols. emblems.
[03:36] Halleck: logos in the purest sense of the word
[03:36] zaydana: dunno, i never play them :-p
[03:36] Halleck: lol
[03:36] zaydana: they just sit as icons on my desktop
[03:37] Halleck: think about half life though..
[03:37] zaydana: yeah, i know bout halflife
[03:37] zaydana: quake
[03:37] zaydana: etc
[03:37] Halleck: the lambda symbol, it _means_ half life
[03:37] Halleck: yeah quake's another good one
[03:37] zaydana: theres no reason this symbol can't *mean* vegastrike.
...
[03:38] zaydana: if circular was that hi a priority, i could just put a circle around the symbol i've done
[03:38] zaydana: i frankly don't see why i'd want to tho
[03:38] Halleck: let's forget about the circle
[03:39] Halleck: how about "equal proportions" and "consistent branding significance"?
[03:39] Halleck: I consider the program icon just as important as the website or title screen
[03:40] Halleck: since it's the part of the game that you see most, apart from possibly the website
[03:40] Halleck: but the logo is _there_ even when you aren't on vegastrike.sf.net
[03:40] Halleck: it sits there on your desktop like you said
[03:40] Halleck: reinforcing our branding scheme for free
[03:41] zaydana: yeah, and theres no reason the logo i've done can't sit on a desktop as well as a website
[03:41] zaydana: so thats not really significant.
[03:41] Halleck: where's the 32x32 icon?
[03:41] Halleck: impress me with it and i'll shut up
[03:43] zaydana: i'm doing it atm.
[03:43] Halleck: k
[03:47] zaydana: http://zaydana.servebeer.com/clients/ve ... con-32.png
...
[03:48] zaydana: not hard to do.
[03:48] Halleck: it's okay.. but look at how much wasted space there is
[03:48] zaydana: so? who gives?
[03:48] zaydana: people aren't going to see an icon and go "oh, look at all that wasted space!"
[03:48] zaydana: look at the steam icon, for example
[03:48] zaydana: or quake 3 icon
[03:48] zaydana: or warzone 2100 icon
[03:48] Halleck: i suppose not..
...
[03:52] Halleck: okay, so maybe there are ways to use blank space... still though, think of how the resolution on it could be improved if it filled the space
[03:53] Halleck: and with so few pixels, we get to the point where visual consistency is sacrificed for the sake of fitting everything in
[03:56] Halleck: for instance, on both of these icons, you've changed the alignment of the "parentheses" ( | ) and removed the central dot. Now I know it's not exactly fair to be scritinizing an early WIP, but my point is that there would be less of these problems if you were able to spend more pixels on the logo itself, instead of blank space
[04:02] Halleck: for instance, it's impossible to center your 16x16 icon, because of the limits of the 16x16 resolution (there are 2 columns of pixels on the left and 3 on the right). Since the logo is taller than it is wide, it can't fill up the whole space.. the only way to center it would be to make it even smaller. However, an evenly proportioned logo could easily be drawn _larger_ to accomplish centering
[04:04] Halleck: 16x16 is used as both the start menu/quicklaunch icon and the website favorites icon... so it is in fact a part of the web design
[04:12] Halleck: Now, don't get me wrong, i don't dislike your logo by itself... I just feel that not enough thought was given to these issues when it was designed
[04:13] zaydana: actaully
[04:13] zaydana: i could center it by making the middle line larger
[04:13] zaydana: larger in width that is.
[04:13] zaydana: then just change the gradient so you barely notice the change in brightness
[04:14] zaydana: Ok... so heres the deal.
[04:14] zaydana: If it was code, i'd say "send us a patch and stop complaining"
[04:14] zaydana: its art, so i'll say "send us your version and stop complaining"
[04:14] zaydana:
[04:17] Halleck: ok, fair enough
[04:18] Halleck: I'm no graphic designer though, so this will be a crude mockup like the last one I posted
[04:18] Halleck: fair?
[04:18] zaydana: hmm, ok.
[04:18] zaydana: Tbh, i'm not a graphic designer either
[04:18] zaydana: the only art experience i've ever had is tutorials on websites.
[04:19] zaydana: a tip: mockups are pretty useless
[04:20] zaydana: cos artists always want to follow their own ideas
[04:20] zaydana:
[04:20] Halleck: you don't think i've noticed?
[04:20] Halleck: don't expect it to be pretty but i'll demonstrate the design concept
[04:20] zaydana: k.
[04:21] Halleck: mind if i show this chatlog, maybe on the forums?
[04:21] zaydana: nah, thats fine.
[04:21] Halleck: i think it's a good summary of our arguments
[04:21] Halleck: cool
[04:21] zaydana: anyways, cya.
[04:21] Halleck: ciao

[zaydana]

For anybody looking at those icons, bear in mind that they are only WIP. I will probably change them around a bit to get a better icon.

[klauss]

I do think those icons are great (for a wip - they could use some improvement, but the general idea works great). JMO.

[charlieg]

Not only does it look good, but it is a vast improvement over the existing logo. Maybe it's not perfect, but these things rarely are perfect and unless somebody is prepared to put in the effort with one of the previous submissions, I don't see any reason to delay too much.

Pragmatists get things done. Perfectionists live in consternation.

[Halleck]

Sigh... it's obvious that everyone loves this logo except for me. I guess I'll just shut up.

There's no point to me making a 'proof-of-concept' like I told zaydana I would do, since there's no way I could make it look as polished as his (I'm not an artist) and everybody has pretty much already made up their minds.

Oh well, I tried. Here's to the new logo.

[zaydana]

I guess we are just waiting on klauss' render for the background then. After that, I should be most of the way to a new web layout.

[jackS]

Sigh... it's obvious that everyone loves this logo except for me. I guess I'll just shut up.

There's no point to me making a 'proof-of-concept' like I told zaydana I would do, since there's no way I could make it look as polished as his (I'm not an artist) and everybody has pretty much already made up their minds.

Oh well, I tried. Here's to the new logo.

Have you put in any thought to what the elite-strike logo will be?

[Halleck]

Urh... no, actually. I wasn't really planning on one.

The elite wings, maybe?

[klauss]

Sigh... it's obvious that everyone loves this logo except for me.

Ugh... yes, seems to be the case.
I hate leaving people out, but basically - yes, I like the logo, and you don't. Others seem to like it, yet you don't.

Tough luck, I'd say, without any intention of being rude.

[Halleck]

Ugh... yes, seems to be the case.
I hate leaving people out, but basically - yes, I like the logo, and you don't. Others seem to like it, yet you don't.

Tough luck, I'd say, without any intention of being rude.

Yeah, I understand. I don't think I'll be losing any sleep over it.

I guess, when I really get down to the core of it, I feel like all this stuff is saying "look at me! I'm so hip and understated." As if we were "too cool" to have a strong brand idenitity and a design that really stands out, which I would consider kind of amateurish (although I do admit that the latest header designs are better than the purple-on-purple scheme.)

But hey, even CoJL liked it, and that's high praise indeed. Also, as charlieg pointed out, pretty much anything would be better than what we have now. I think it would be a waste of everyone's time if I keep on going with my one-man opposition.

[Ryder P. Moses]

We're too cool to be corny!

We should totally replace the logo with the Dancing Baby animation. That'll get us strong brand identification. We'll be known by space trader fans the world 'round as "that game with the dancing baby"!

And nobody'll ever accuse us of being faux-hip either.

[pheldens]

http://images.google.com/images?q=VS+lo ... rt=20&sa=N

[Ryder P. Moses]

Can we make the VirtuSphere somehow central to the history of the VS universe? Like, the Confederacy was actually formed by VirtuSphere marketing execs looking to expand awareness of their giant hamster wheels to the stars and beyond, and that's why the logo looks the same?

[zaydana]

*bump*

any progress on that screenshot, klauss?