Taglines and logos and officialness, oh my :)

[Space Pirate]

I don't exactly like "Rimward of Eden" ... I would prefer something more direct and dramatic, something that suggests "space" more. I think that there may be some confusion about the meaning of this tagline becase "Rimward" and "Eden" is somewhat ambiguous and abstract. I don't think that many people will even understand it. (I only have a very vague idea of what "Rimward" means... AFAIK, it isn't an english word.) This could be a very confusing tagline indeed.

Also, I prefer "Legends of the Void" as opposed to "Tales of the Void", because "legends" suggests size, power, legacy, something important, while "tales" IMHO somehow seems smaller.

IMHO, Legends are known by more people, and they can span back a longer period of time. Tales, in my perspective, are like stories that far less people know, and they are more like stories people tell to children that have morals.

I think that "The fall of humankind" is one of my favorites too- It is very attention-grabbing and interesting.

"Upon the Coldest Sea" and "Beyond all Horizons" is also great too because they suggest "space" very strongly

I think we should definitely have a vote on which tagline we should choose.

Nevertheless, I feel that Vegastrike would do well with a catchy tagline that sounds cool and that people would remember. (IMHO "Rimward of Eden" is about as catchy as "Thus Spake the Nachmenschen")

Just my two cents...

[charlieg]

Rimward, to me and probably the many other english speakers who don't read too many books, sounds like a homosexual reference (seriously). It really is a bad, bad word.

[dandandaman]

Also, I prefer "Legends of the Void" as opposed to "Tales of the Void", because "legends" suggests size, power, legacy, something important, while "tales" IMHO somehow seems smaller.

But why is this a problem. Indeed, I see this argument as going the other way. The types of stores that will be in Vegastrike are *not* going to involve the player creating massive, galaxy altering events ... whether you even participate in any will probably be entirely optional. Most of the campaigns will be relatively self contained, or at least, they won't have massive consequences for the various races.

This fits in with the character you are playing, a person .. *not* some hero whos name is spoken for millenia to come etc etc. You will not become a legend, but you life is a story that can be told. At least, that's what I understand from what Jack has said to me.

Given this, 'Legend of the Void' is an innacurate overrepresentation of what the player will actually participate in. 'Tales of the Void' on the other hand is much more fitting ... it implies the game will involve the telling of a collection of stories, which it will. So, to me, the choice between these particular two is obvious.

Dan.a

[pifactorial]

(I only have a very vague idea of what "Rimward" means... AFAIK, it isn't an english word.)

http://librarydata.jtas.net/LibraryData ... ctions.htm
From the page:

Rimward: Toward the rim of the galaxy (toward the Solomani Rim from Core sector).

[CubOfJudahsLion]

As the one who suggested "Legends of the Void", I think it's my place to explain my choice of words. It's my fault that my post, admittedly not a very serious-looking one, appeared it to be a 'spur-of-the-moment' thing. Please allow me to rectify.

To borrow a defintion from an online dictionary:

legend
1 a : a story coming down from the past; especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable b : a body of such stories <a place in the legend of the frontier> c : a popular myth of recent origin d : a person or thing that inspires legends e : the subject of a legend <its violence was legend even in its own time -- William Broyles Jr.>

As you can see, a legend is not necessarily a story of supernatural mysticism, or a distorted epic of worldwide relevance, as the term is often believed to imply. A story only needs this... suspicion of truthfulness to earn the name.

If I heard correctly, the main campaign of Vega Strike is meant to be a grand tour across this vast universe-- a universe filled with different cultures, shaped by belief systems which in turn may derive from what now are legends. What happened to the Forsaken in the interim? Why did the Lightbearers develop such contempt for life? What caused the Ancestors' fall? Who or what where Those Who Have Only Names? The origins and fate of many of the known races/factions are breeding grounds for myths. There's an element of legend to the Vega Strike background, at least until the story, if it does, solves such mysteries.

The intro reading to VS, A Dead Man's Ship, seems (at least for me) to be an existentialist reading. I might be wrong, but it's clear that it takes a philosophical stand--mature sci-fi often seems to require a philosophical approach (you may not belong to the particular school of thought--I don't, myself--but the method works.) Additionally, there's a moment that invites the reader to reflect upon a very human trait: Deucalion's brief 'melodramatic episode' that carries him out into anthropomorphizing space itself and telling a ghost story for the robo-barkeep, all in one paragraph:

"For I can't stop being a pilot - she beckons, you see; the cold vacuum of space moves her lifeless arm, and I am compelled to join the legions of ships that, mastless, sail upon her. Days at a time, scant body-lengths away from her condemning kiss - and there he'll be - a ghost from selves by then long past, waiting for me to join him."

This is, pretty much, the stuff of legends. Men seek to understand the world around them. This is, in part, the drive that compels us to reach into the void--a search for answers (this is also Deucalion's atruggle, or so it appears for me.) Most of said answers are merely legends; it remains to be seen which ones are actual truths and which ones aren't.

[Space Pirate]

(I only have a very vague idea of what "Rimward" means... AFAIK, it isn't an english word.)

http://librarydata.jtas.net/LibraryData ... ctions.htm
From the page:

Rimward: Toward the rim of the galaxy (toward the Solomani Rim from Core sector).

Okay, so there is a definition of what "Rimward" means... but unfortunately when I looked in the dictionary it wasn't there. Well, one might infer what Rimward means but "Rimward of Eden" is still confusing with the definition posted... so it is a fiction term for some part of the galaxy, but in this description it sounds like some part of Eden.

Even though I have read plenty of books related to science and science fiction (I'm reading one right now), I have never come across the word "rimward". Not everyone has read some particular books that use "rimward".

On the issue of how difficult such a reference (Rimward of Eden --> East of Eden) may be to grasp for non-english readers, I have no particular wisdom.
One considers how "A Clockwork Orange" got butchered in various translations (it's part of an idiomatic expression that runs closer to (queer as a) clockwork orange, that is, something quite unnaturally strange) turning in some cases into seeming to be a reference to a grenade (via the mechanical fruit route).
As for english language readers who are unfamiliar with either East of Eden or the origins of that title, while the reference may be lost, it should be difficult to avoid an end result which is at least "Outside/Distinct from/Away from/Not in Eden"

It is, admittedly, difficult to make observations outside of one's own conception of the world (plug plug plug: Read Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure od Scientific Revolutions" wonderful book), so this is all quite shaky in terms of projecting myself into either of the above categories, but it's the best I can do.

[jackS]

so it is a fiction term for some part of the galaxy

No. Rimward, spinward, coreward, and anti-spinward (along with galactic north and south) are terms, (admittedly more used in fiction that scholarly sources, for reasons speculated upon below) for a relative direction of one thing with respect to another in reference to galactic location. This is an important distinction - one would "Vega is spinward of Sol" the same way one could say "California is east of Hawaii" not "Vega is in The Spinward" as one might say "China is in The East"

It is interesting to note that, searching for "Galactic North" (which is a recognized term), yields less than 600 google hits. Relative locations of extra-solar objects do not seem to be a prime discussion point (as a further aside, many of the coordinate systems used by astronomers are geo/heliocentric, thus making relative descriptions of location less elegant when not with respect to Earth/Sol) To the best of my knowledge, there is very minimal discussion of cardinal directions with respect to the galaxy by anyone, even SF authors, as it's not generally that relevant (unless you're Vernor Vinge, in which case it matters a lot whether you're more coreward or more rimward).

However, even absent longstanding traditions for cardinal directions, I cannot help but assume that core and rim are, with respect to our galaxy, understood terms.

Suffice it to say then, that, even absent context, the relative-directional nature of rimward/spinward/etc. should be reasonably apparent from the -ward ending, as with homeward, skyward, backward, forward (admittedly somewhat degenerate, as fore --> for), etc. See http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?met ... tab=1555_1
for more on -ward and its roots.

, but in this description it sounds like some part of Eden.

How? - here I am confused. "Rimward of Eden" is clearly expressing a direction relative to Eden, thus highlighting the difference of that which is rimward from Eden from Eden itself, which would seem quite the contrary statement to being a part of Eden.

Even though I have read plenty of books related to science and science fiction (I'm reading one right now), I have never come across the word "rimward". Not everyone has read some particular books that use "rimward".

Well, be that as it may, I took the compound word 'rimward' to be nonetheless intelligible as "in the direction of (the) rim" due to the -ward suffix (for full intelligibility, one then needs to go from "in the direction of (the) rim" to "In the direction of (the Galactic) rim, but that really shouldn't be a stretch). Clearly, I was somewhat optimistic in my speculations upon the parsing abilities of others :-/

On the issue of how difficult such a reference (Rimward of Eden --> East of Eden) may be to grasp for non-english readers, I have no particular wisdom.
One considers how "A Clockwork Orange" got butchered in various translations (it's part of an idiomatic expression that runs closer to (queer as a) clockwork orange, that is, something quite unnaturally strange) turning in some cases into seeming to be a reference to a grenade (via the mechanical fruit route).
As for english language readers who are unfamiliar with either East of Eden or the origins of that title, while the reference may be lost, it should be difficult to avoid an end result which is at least "Outside/Distinct from/Away from/Not in Eden"

It is, admittedly, difficult to make observations outside of one's own conception of the world (plug plug plug: Read Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure od Scientific Revolutions" wonderful book), so this is all quite shaky in terms of projecting myself into either of the above categories, but it's the best I can do.

[jackS]

As the one who suggested "Legends of the Void", I think it's my place to explain my choice of words. It's my fault that my post, admittedly not a very serious-looking one, appeared it to be a 'spur-of-the-moment' thing. Please allow me to rectify.

Yes, I agree that Legends of the Void, taken in that sense (where the Void is possessed of legends rather than the players _being_ legends (of the void)) is fully appropriate - the only question I would ask is whether we can come up with a variant phrasing of "Legends of the Void" that more clearly points to the first rather than the second interpretation? We might not be able to find such, given that interpretation (as has been clearly shown of late) can be a varied thing, but I think it might be worthwhile to try, and at worst we still have "Legends of the Void".

(amusing aside: while most of the things you mentioned are chalk full of legendness, a couple of the things you mentioned are only "legendary" at the moment because I haven't written enough of the history yet )

[dandandaman]

CJL, you convinced me. For reasons why, and conditions to my acceptance, reread Jack's post

Dan.a

[charlieg]

Yes, I agree that Legends of the Void, taken in that sense (where the Void is possessed of legends rather than the players _being_ legends (of the void)) is fully appropriate - the only question I would ask is whether we can come up with a variant phrasing of "Legends of the Void" that more clearly points to the first rather than the second interpretation?

"Legends in the void" or "Legends from the void"? Possibly as ambiguous as the original. *shrugs*

Maybe a slight elaboration; "Join legends in the void" or "Experience legends of the void"

[strangelet]

Tales of the Void!
Tales of the Void!
Tales of the Void!
Tales of the Void!
Tales of the Void!

see my articulate reasoning and persuasive argument there?

[CubOfJudahsLion]

I'm not as keen on getting my subtitle selected as I am in making a point about relevance. A subtitle works like an executive summary: it is intenteded to be descriptive of the essence of the title/story in few words, and at the same time, it's the 'catchy' roundup that nails a potential audience/consumer.

The result is that the subtitle often makes the difference. "Lands of Lore" is not nearly as interesting as "Lands of Lore: Guardians of Destiny". Other similar examples:

"Haegemonia: Legions of Iron". Let's face, Latin is dead, and not everybody's read "Ender's Game".

"Thief: Deadly Shadows". Sure, now that you know the game, you don't need a subtitle, but when it was a newcomer to the market, it certainly conveyed the much needed element of danger. (That, and the cool posters in medieval settings, of course. Where would games be without promo art?)

No time for digging up more.

Then there are others that shoot themselves on the foot, such as "Nexus: the Jupiter Incident". The subtitle can kill a very, very good game, as it fails to convey the cosmic scale of the story. "Jupiter? Pah. That's just next door." At least for us simspace jockeys it is.

---
Alternate proposed subtitles:

"Legends from the Void"--the proposition sets the focus on space, and it's hard to find an interpretation where the player originates in the vacuum. Good call (I like this one, but that may be just me.) Someone may still interpret it wrongly, but when you get down to it, what isn't subject to misinterpretation?

"Legends from Across the Void". Wordy, yes, but emphasizes distance and kills ambiguity. Not my favorite though.

"Myths of/from the Void". "Myth" brings me back to mysticism, but then again, it's less likely for someone to think that the "myth" refers to you.

"Lore of the Void". Much less implication of accounts of personal glory, far more clearly referring to past legends and stories. Has a grandiloquent sound to it and the VS universe is fittingly huge. Implied with the word comes a sense of legacy, a ritual of sorts--all of which goes well with Deucalion's mourning pilgrimage and his inheritance of the ship.

[Space Pirate]

To me, the reason why "Rimward of Eden" is hard to understand is because of the CONTEXT. "Rimward" itself is easy to figure out ("towards the rim").

So in the context "System blahblahblah is rimward of sol", I would interpret that as "System blahblahblah is more towards the rim of something (probably the galaxy) than sol". But the first time I saw "Rimward of Eden", I interpreted it as: "A ward near the rim of Eden". That is why "Rimward" did not make sense to me at first. Had I known the scientific definition of "Rimward" beforehand, however, the meaning of "Rimward of Eden" would have been much clearer to me.


This is a list of GOOD qualities we should look for in subtitles:

1. Something catchy, like "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones", or "Halo: Combat Evolved"
2. Something that suggests "space"
3. Something that describes the game is probably good. A lot of them work here... Again, "Attack of the Clones", "Yuri's Revenge", and "Fight. Trade. Explore. WIN."


Just some ideas:

Vega Strike: Orbital Combat
Vega Strike: Where the Sun Never Dawns
Vega Strike: The Galaxy in Ruins
Vega Strike: Assault on the Homeworlds
Vega Strike: The Battle for the Galaxy

Orbital Combat suggests "Space and Warfare".

"Where the Sun Never Dawns" was inspired by "Upon the Coldest Sea", similar "space" idea going on.

"The Galaxy in Ruins" not only suggests war but it also suggests the dystopia that Vega Strike takes place in.

"Assault on the Homeworlds" was originally going to be "Assault on the Homeworld", but making Homeworld plural better describes the dynamic universe VegaStrike is set in, because there are many battles and many different empires rise and fall.

"The Battle for the Galaxy" is pretty self-explanitory.

My favorite ones out of these are "The Battle for the Galaxy" and "Assault on the Homeworlds" because they describe Vegastrike well.

Hmm... maybe some taglines should be nominated by the public and then we will have a vote on the nominees...

Off Topic: w00t! This is my 100th post!

[charlieg]

Vega Strike: Survive the Legendary Void

[Synchrone]

Vega Strike: Survive the Legendary Void

I'd say Survive the Void sounds better.

[Space Pirate]

Vega Strike: Survive the Legendary Void

I'd say Survive the Void sounds better.

Another alternate version:

Vega Strike: Survival in the Void

This is an excellent subtitle because it suggests "space", and it also suggests the whole aim of the game: To scrape together an existence in space. Picking up on that idea, I came up with some more subtiltles:

Vega Strike: Existence in the Cosmos
Vega Strike: Survive the Galaxy

My favorites so far:
Vega Strike: Legends of the Void
Vega Strike: Upon the Coldest Sea
Vega Strike: Fight. Trade. Explore. WIN.


We have so many ideas here. Just wondering, when can we expect a new tagline to be picked and how?

[zaydana]

Upon the coldest sea or legends of the void are the best, depending on what the devs want the focus of the game to be. If there is a complex storyline, go for legends. If there isn't, go for coldest sea.

[Halleck]

I'm still a fan of 'tales', though. It's short and sweet.

Also, what "legends" are there in the game? The plot seems to be on more of a minute scale, not a grand 'legend' to me. For instance, you might recount the tale of jenek the stranded hauler, but a legend? I think not.

[reaper]

Of the three that seem to have legs, my vote is for Upon the Coldest Sea. It evokes to me a golden age Sci-Fi title, which based on how much thought has gone into physical explanations, seems to fit best. As for the debate about Rimward, I would suggest scrapping it. If people are most interested in a plausible reference to galactic directions based on our current state of the culture, etc., rimward is not commonly in parlance amongst my fellow astronomy grad students. There are galactic coordinates that astronomers use based on latitude and longitude. In true 3-D space, you also need a radial measure from the center of the galaxy.

All the references to latitude and longitude make me think of sailing and that brings me back to Upon the Coldest Sea--

Space is a harsh mistress

Vega Strike: Upon the Coldest Sea

[CubOfJudahsLion]

I've started to like "Upon the Coldest Sea" lately. I started thinking, "how are audiences going to see this?" The little narrative summarizes my musings. I hope you will forgive my bad puns.


----------------------

The bell of the store ringed. A tall, slender bearded man with glasses stepped in, preceded by a kid who looked about fourteen. The clerk squinted behind his desk--sunlight was a rare sight for him.

"How may I help you, sir?"

The kid was already in the aisles, looking at the colorful boxes with cool designs on them.

The tall man approached the counter. "Looking for a space sim. Any good ones?"

"Well, we just got these three titles... or rather, this one title in."

The customer seemed confused. "Well, is it one, or three?"

The employee twiddled his fingers. "Well... better see for yourself, sir. If you'll follow me..." the two men walked to the "HOT!" aisle.

The kid was already there, mouth agape. "Woooow! Hey, dad, look at this!", he said, pulling his father's jacket. "So cool!"

Sitting on the top shelf, there were three boxes that, at first sight appeared to be completely different--different color and size. Upon closer inspection, however, it became clear that they were conceptually similar. All three portrayed scenes of furious space combat; the ships in the boxes looked similar. The icing on the cake was the title--the same for all three, displayed in clear letters: "Vega Strike".

The father allowed himself a derisive smirk. "Isn't this the same title, just with alternate packaging? Like StarCraft?"

"I presume, sir, but... well, just look at the subtitles".

They were different, indeed. The one in the leftmost box was "Tales of the Void", the middle one "Legends from the Void" and the last one "Upon the Coldest Sea". The name of the publishing company was also different: the first read "Camelhorse", the second "Committee Design" and the third "The Dead German Philosophers Society".

The customer slowly shook his head. "What's this? The result of a ludicrous patent law that'll make a movie?"

"It's OpenSource, sir. Like Linux. There's Mandrake, Debian, Suse, Slackware, RedHat, YellowDog, and so on. You can download any of them, and you can buy if it's more convenient for you. Everybody wants a different flavor."

"Ahhh, I see." He scratched his head. "So, son, what do you think?"

"I dunno about 'Tales of the Void'. I'm too old for 'Tales of Peter Rabbit' already."

"But you're not too old to tell tall tales, like that ludicrous story about the school bully swapping your A+ for his D-." The father thought of another possibility. "Maybe it's more like 'Tale of Two Cities'."

"Would you play a game about that movie?"

"First, it's a book by Dickens; second, no way. Maybe it's just a game with several different stories, like that Woody Allen movie." He moved on to the next box. "How about 'Legends of the Void'?"

"Sounds like an expansion pack?", said the teenager. Suddenly, he twisted his mouth with a mixture of curiosity and disbelief. "Is it like the 'Lords of the Rings' but in space, maybe? Can I see?"

"Maybe it's like Warhammer 40K."

"But... I don't see orcs or elves in the box."

"Maybe it's more like a space metaphor of a crusade, or a tale that mixes the supernatural with sci-fi."

"Whatever, dad." His father was starting to lecture him again. "Let's see the other one."

"All right. Lessee... 'Upon the Coldest Sea'. Hmm, at least this one has a poetic sense."

"The coldest sea? Isn't this a space sim?"

"I think the 'coldest sea' is a reference to space, son."

"Ah, of course. Yeah, I saw it in science class."

"Hmmm, at least these sound like they have a knack for writing. It also sounds remote, foreboding... a bit dark, but I think I like this one."

"Um, I hope the characters don't talk like Shakespeare characters, or something."

"So do I, son. C'mon, let's go pay for this one and then straight home to play it."

[pifactorial]

What about this one, son? "Rimward of Eden" - I like the ring of that.

Rimward, to me and probably the many other english speakers who don't read too many books, sounds like a homosexual reference (seriously). It really is a bad, bad word.

You have a sick mind, son.

Anyway... I like "Upon the Coldest Sea"

[Space Pirate]

"Upon The Coldest Sea" is very direct, and it evokes a much stronger image than "Tales/Legends of the Void", it fits well with pretty much any screenshot, and the current logo/various logo ideas floating around here. I think it's easier to remember, and most importantly, it just sounds better, so I agree and it gets my vote.

[Halleck]

Most importantly, "upon the coldest sea" seems to fit the... feel of game. It's not about conquering, or legends, or anything so grand. It's about you, trying to make your way as a tiny, insignificant speck in a vast universe.

[hurleybird]

I really like "upon the coldest sea" as well. It's cold, dark, and lonely, just the way space should be!

[charlieg]

I like "upon the coldest sea" too.