TBeholder wrote:Non sequitur. Either we know what we want to do, or not.
If we know, the task of applying the same general principles to more instances won't become disproportionately harder. And once we have answers to "is THIS a step in the right direction?", we can use incremental optimization, so it's just matter of time...
This is a good point. I support planning it out. There a few types of gameplay optimization for ships: Visual; strategic; mission; ectera. I have only acknowledged strategic recently, but it all would be inportant.
TBeholder wrote: You're placing a cart on a horse's side and want them racing.
There has been many changes discussed and generally agreed upon recently which would take time to implement. They have missing variables, that I think makes some prediction necessary. Part of the reason I'm placing carts beside horses isn't because the grand plan is to lash them together and watch them race. But because I expect more carts and horses to show up. I'm trying to get people possibly playing Sudoku here, so that there is minimized desire for regression at the end.
Some of the assumptions I'm making are: That space hubs and lanes will make the commonly traveled areas much smaller and non SPEC-able; That SPEC will be made less often useable in the middle of open combat; That AI will be more aware of the environment; and essentially that shields despite being raised or lowed quickly would be drained and charged or rather stabilized and destabilized more gradually over a longer period of time to be more cumulative.
Tweaking latter is fine and not an issue, but regression maybe, since once it's in it rather stays in.
Off topic:Gradual development while maintaining decent game balance is like playing Suduku with a magically expandable game board, while trying to have each line continually nearly equal. It's to a degree doable, but not perfectly. This though is in addition to the normal game, which itself often moves forward on assumptions based on necessary or lazy guesses that sometimes are right and save time and sometimes are wrong and consume time; but also sometimes are faster than no decision.
Deus Siddis wrote:The more units you have, the more difficult it is to find a place for a unit in the balance which isn't already filled by another unit. Also the differences between the units becomes smaller, making each one more indistinguishable and forgettable.
The part about units already filling predefined roles I don't believe would be such an issue if units are also identified by those abstract roles. Except that it indeed would really help to enforce consistency in the most iconic factions and focus efforts on getting those critical corner stones in place.
Deus Siddis wrote:If we don't know, we don't have any meaningful "task" in the first place.
I have created five tasks, or "roles" as I call them, that I want to base the new balance around-- Interceptor, Flanker, Siege, Shuttle and Transport.
I described the first three in an earlier post. The Shuttle primarily moves a small amount of cargo quickly and the transport moves a large amount of cargo slowly. For larger factions, there will be both aerospace and capital units of each role.
These role that you and others have created specifically for space combat strategy are interesting and entertaining. I have compiled a similar arrangement where your roles are ship configurations and the classes are hulls as suggested: Interceptor=>Fighter, Flanker=>Frigate, Siege=>Cruiser, Shuttle=>AeroSpace, Transport=>Hulk.
I'll be thinking some to further figure how to order and combine some ideas into classes, roles, and configurations. Seems very promising. We could mockup some more combat examples between classes and roles that are not obvious to try to discover what needs to be emphasized.
Deus Siddis wrote:Question: how this is going to change the situation?
It concentrates ships done in a similar style aesthetically (and probably by the same artist) into a single faction. It also favors filling as many roles as possible for a few major factions rather than have ships spread sparsely over numerous small factions...
Adding visual distinctness and organization to the most united factions would reflect how united and organized the player perceives those factions, and help the player understand the game politics going on outside his ship.
Updated categories
Ships categories: Manufacturer; Class; Model; Configuration.
Pilots in space identified by: Species; Alignment; Squadron; Identification.
Squadron mates in space by: Grouping; Name; AI role; orders.
Ship Categories
Classes &
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Utility Ships
Aerospace ship
Hulk ship
- Space Transport
- Space Hauler
Deployment ship
- Asteroid Mining
- Gas Mining
Warships:
Space Fighter
- Space Striker
- Space Interrupter
- Space Raider
Space Assault
- Space Bomber
- Space Interceptor
- Space Hunter
Space Frigate
- Space Corvette
- Space Destroyer
- Space Flanker
Space Cruiser
- Space Carrier
- Thunderhead
- Space Battleship
- Siege
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/\/
Definitions for Utility ships
Aerospace ship highly efficient airframe craft
Deus Siddis wrote:Shuttling is the movement of cargo between the surface of a planet and orbital altitude. It is especially critical for fringe systems where young colonies require high end necessities they can't yet produce for themselves at full capacity and which don't have space elevators, stations or even enough of their own shuttles to transport goods themselves.
Currierbig engines and small cargo bays[...] load up with the intent to get to a single destination as soon as possible. No traveling salesman crap or making bus stops.
Hulk for any transport too immense for its engines to land on even a large moon.
- Space Transport moving of people and luggage around the galaxy.
Deus Siddis wrote:[Space Hauler is the movement of cargo between the orbital altitudes of different planets, often located in different solar systems. It is especially critical for mining operations and planets with extreme environments, since these places usually have enormous quantities of a few types of goods and never enough of most everything else they need.
Deployment ship
Deus Siddis wrote:Asteroid Mining is the break down and collection of asteroids for the metal ores they contain. It is dangerous due to the ambient collision threats and the cover against detection they provide to hostile craft.
Deus Siddis wrote:Gas Mining is the collection of elements from gas giants for use as reaction mass, fuel, coolant and artificial atmospheres. It is dangerous due to super storm turbulence and the inability to quickly escape the gravity well in case of attack.
Definitions for Warships:
A
Space Fighter is both a ship hull class and a neutral configuration. It is a cheap piloted support ship meant to overwhelm and scramble defenses in support of other ships. They are highly manoeuvrable in real space and made small and hard to hit by avoiding all unnecessary fuel and equipment, so have limited range.
Deus Siddis wrote:A
Striker would need no powerful thrusters, just powerful weapons. A striker needs the support of interceptors to protect them from being intercepted, but once in range of its target is capable to deal a good pounding worthy and fearsome.
Like "striker" for craft with powerful main thrusters and fixed forward heavy weapons...
Deus Siddis wrote:[Interrupter] is filled by ships that trade in maneuverability, armor, endurance and overall firepower for extreme forward linear acceleration and dangerous but generally short lived firepower from forward fixed weapons. They are for nearly immediate defensive response as well as hit and run strikes against enemies relatively close to a base or vessel capable of refueling and rearming them. As such they are usually found standing guard near wormholes, hidden inside asteroid fields, sitting on planetary launchpads or docked en masse with stations and large ships.
klauss wrote:...they're escorts that can intercept attacking craft before they reach the main fleet. As such, they must be fast and deadly, but they have no need of endurance (large fuel reserves).
Deus Siddis wrote:The Raider needs to be agile and stealthy, and it does need lots of endurance, since it must first reach and pass enemy lines. Its function is to wreak havoc deep in enemy space, so it needs to be agile, stealthy, and carry a lot of fuel. It can't deal devastating blows, but it can perform surgical strikes on weak but important targets, or it can fulfill the role of scout, relaying enemy positions back to a fleet. Or it can smuggle stuff.
A
Space Assault ship is both a ship type and a neutral configuration. The configuration is a relatively expensive ship that can operate independently. They are highly maneuverable latterly allowing skilled pilots to dodge projectiles while attacking but are not necessary fast moving forward.
- A Space Bomber is a piloted assault ship that carries an armament of torpedo bombs to battles. Unloaded they can scrimish but carrying their full payload are highly encumbered. To compensate they are heavily fortified, with armour, countermeasures heavy shields and sometimes an offensive turret.
- A Space Interceptor would be defined as a piloted dedicated assault ship with good endurance and both large thruster and SPEC engines relative to the ship size. Where often conditioned pilots are outfitted with extensive inertia mitigation equipment like cheap pressure suites and, if necessary the more expensive local gravity meshes to stabilize the pilots vital functions during acceleration.
Deus Siddis wrote:Hunter is filled by ships that favor stealth, detection, endurance, moderate armor and considerable but not long lasting firepower. While interceptors quickly deal with close in threats, hunters take their time tracking down long term threats over great distances and are deployed in smaller numbers. They are usually found deployed inside enemy territory near the cover of asteroid fields, debris fields, stars or uninhabited planets as well a good distance from friendly forces serving as a first line of defense.
A
Space Frigate is both a ship Hull class and a neutral configuration. The configuration would be defined as a fast multipurpose warship emphasizing faster acceleration than all other similarly sized ship types. They normally have noticeably large and redundant rear thruster engines and often decent ability to fire upon pursuers at a distance. They can be made very long since turning is less a priority since often the ship keeps it's distance as a support ship during and after battle.
- A Space Corvette is an extremely manoeuvrable crewed ship, targeted at outgunning smaller fighters and bombers while avoiding larger ships. They normally have: high rate of fire weapons on fast turrets providing all around projectile coverage against fighters; light offensive misses; an armament of defensive countermeasures; and capability to launch expensive torpedo bombs and fighters most often used defensively. When loaded maneuverability can be greatly encumbered by the extra mass so they are often configured as torpedo then stealth or launch then evade carriers.
- A Space Destroyer would be defined as a highly maneuverable warship emphasizing firepower maneuverability and endurance. They have noticeably bigger maneuverings thrusters than other ship classes to better evade projectiles and quickly switch position during battle. They normally look stout and cluttered with weapons. They normally keep their distance from heavy damage exchanges and quickly move in with their firepower to quickly finish off ships and reduce the enemies fighting ability before they recover.
Deus Siddis wrote:Space Flank[er] ships combine maneuverability, armor and long lasting but close ranged firepower often mounted in turrets or swiveling casemates. They are used to protect friendly forces in tight formations and attack opponents at the closest possible range, where their maneuverability, survivability and flexible firepower allow them to get around or behind the enemy's defenses. [flankers] are usually seen deployed en masse in close defensive positions around assets or in small groups near enemy territory forming a second line of defense and standing ready to support friendly hunters caught by patrols in enemy territory.
A
Space Cruiser is both a ship Hull class and a neutral configuration. The configuration is a well equipped multipurpose warship that carries ships and heavy armaments for a variety of tasks and are often defended by the more specialized ships. They carry a fair amount of cargo and can often deploy defensive ships.
- A Space Carrier is ship specialized in carrying and launching other ships. They are fairly fast with excellent endurance but have little defensive and maneuvering capability. Unloaded they are even faster which is a bonus when launching defensively.
Thunderhead for relatively fast large warships that maneuver poorly but are armed with considerable turret based weaponry, [consisting of smaller frequently firing projectiles to deal with smaller ships.]
- A Space Battleship is the most heavily fortified warship. Little priority is given to speed and manoeuvrability but rather to firepower and fortification. They do not often have significant launching capabilities.
Deus Siddis wrote:Siege craft trade in all forms of agility for long ranged, long lasting, fearsome forward firepower as well as detection and possessing good frontal armor but weak flanks and rear. They are used to demolish entire fleets, hardened targets and swathes of infrastructure from a safe distance. Siege craft are usually found near friendly bases for mutual protection or at the center of a flight group.
This list is haphazard and again some classes and configurations could easily be combined. There are many other suggested categories of ships in the
Wiki entry for ships, that I believe would all fit within these classes if necessary.
I suggest that Fighters may be separate from assault ships by size. Though some Fighters would be considered relatively long range, they would not be considered independently capable because due to their size, they rarely carry jump drives.