Remodelling the Robin

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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Fendorin » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:56 am

Then maybe first model for you should be some easy work matching with your spare time left to you

as new model for torpedo or missile
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:24 pm

Then maybe first model for you should be some easy work matching with your spare time left to you


Could very well be a good idea, but for now, I think I will keep trying, - of course if someone out their has their heart set on this ship, then by all means, model it :D

but if that's not the case I will keep inching along, if its all the same to everyone else. :wink:

In the time I have had, I threw together an extremely simple prototype, mostly to check if I have the general shape right -

https://4890178318983706738-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/dragonseraphangelsreferences/references/Robin1.png?attachauth=ANoY7cqK8yBwu1Dwcsk-VgC0D4UaYWpri34h7k6B1lvTNORisDukMGGtNd-d_6vbgcNnnu-wz6GardseNfPWWVzDir7NI9_MP8mMHuC8ZxeH_DVisJM9oyqua-qlbleW-yrmk0kDrX910n40zKPMJwqvV3pEpt4lhHgK-fIjbGGMCk-_NJXZZ6rI-WpX0cy5ym4w3WhfuCtxqfTjKhrTIjPp4zqk7p5Z9_4t6tCNQew3cQv1hSoNEjY%3D&attredirects=0

https://4890178318983706738-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/dragonseraphangelsreferences/references/Robin2.png?attachauth=ANoY7coXU97k8iHHYRVMduCl0y_LqFcIBdM6W3y3SCOUZ4iXqHQCSUY-cSNnDeFisZm_QvFak57flzZRs01l9u0nAUuNZSLjhlz9rMdtlA7qV_XCiKLNLO36eXJ7ZVppq5ojJ8xvdikiojJpYu3hGlLP1HnDCB4A01aNB9InNS7HegVFweSJ-ZqGnOPYDzV6FBZ22HRuJdmeAW3CAhr_TCnckyVqhmhHDnImGO1u4aaaQ3yfjzjLwuc%3D&attredirects=0

https://4890178318983706738-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/dragonseraphangelsreferences/references/Robin5.png?attachauth=ANoY7cpcDtpyK-Mm31kgRmwN_w2cVCT41nCUjaVeEQ7FaSFoEORI8WaQKGiO8GU9jSBh4AxeyE8jNo_Ap7tvGIP1hw_r5zf_gpLvHVGgyQ-haOjN_d2KtLBAPLQ-m6qA1Qku1FaS-jUeYUcBbLCjkFdZthFgMEGaWWc7fHQlpuXlNbWCZtu75i9ax8uZkKoCDoxzI9sec6Fs-1QwDNQE2ipMvnmMFWFI_rKjjnpT5f7EvKjucH6Hlig%3D&attredirects=0

And with smoothed lighting

https://4890178318983706738-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/dragonseraphangelsreferences/references/Robin6.png?attachauth=ANoY7cp4xU_6rmMD_ZaKGyOtJEZPG51ulP3ybHDH9l1U4LAgxvKlz1OlF6cFi0ODNqTwO7j1nqQIEyXChZonQ7XbWRw-D_YWlgRmx-gYZyqAaxAVmLCT94JOXkDlzm44glPpiCWXtzpq5CtUSqgbN65Bj5BvP6EXE6Ky6tdme36DAuxt91ERVTC5rMWXCHkWCD4OKllcgc-_CovxY-eX8PJi723ASZy9kl-Gd-4bt6PX0pOwHs0CdvE%3D&attredirects=0

Comments? Criticism? Advice?

I know the level of detail is pathetic, but it IS supposed to be more of a preliminary sketch - Just to see if their are any big ulgy problems I should deal with before moving on.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby charlieg » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:02 pm

1st recommendation is to use a host like imgur.com that allows you to embed the images or link them directly.

2nd recommendation is to add a bit more detail to some key areas such as the cockpit as cylinders are pretty uninspiring. (It looks good so far though!) Just remember to save intermediate models in case you get some canon feedback that means you have to go back a bit - but also remember that having to redo or refine things is not a bad thing as you are always learning as you are creating.

Sometimes if you wait on feedback before continuing, you end up stopping because sometimes feedback is slow enough that you get distracted in the mean time.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:46 pm

1st recommendation is to use a host like imgur.com that allows you to embed the images or link them directly.


I try to use google sites to host my images, but whenever I try to link them with the [Img] bracekt button it doesn't work - should I host them somewhere else, or am I doing it wrong?

2nd recommendation is to add a bit more detail to some key areas such as the cockpit as cylinders are pretty uninspiring. (It looks good so far though!) Just remember to save intermediate models in case you get some canon feedback that means you have to go back a bit - but also remember that having to redo or refine things is not a bad thing as you are always learning as you are creating


Are you saying I should redo the cockpit entirely - or just add more detail?
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Fendorin » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:20 pm

HI
is a good beginning
personnaly i think you must redo the cockpit. and the reactor,
and add more details

A tips : you must work by subdivised element more than one object as :
-Wing
-reactor
-cockpit
-body
-...etc
all assembled together it will do your work much easy especially for rework shape,
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:14 pm

Fendorin wrote:personnaly i think you must redo the cockpit. and the reactor


The reactor - is that the sledlike thing underhanging the main body?

When I redo them, what should I change - please tell me speceifics so I can do a more accurate job.

Fendorin wrote:and add more details


I'm definitly planning on it.

Fendorin wrote:A tips : you must work by subdivised element more than one object as :
-Wing
-reactor
-cockpit
-body
-...etc
all assembled together it will do your work much easy especially for rework shape,


The wing-engines, main body, and the reactor or sled (or whatever it is) are actually seperate - I just shoved them together to give an idea of what they would look like combined


My apologies for being difficult
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Fendorin » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:02 pm

hmmm quicly..
in the concept i posted
there is more than one reactor

2 main at back
2 other "main" at "wings" and retrothruster too on front of this two main.
the rack under body is a a rack for what you want

the two "rack" at top is a kind of booster staff

the cockpit had a kind of hull around wich is not on your 3D model :wink: this hull get camera sensor and other radar and light canon/gun.
the thing at middle of wings is the weapon pack gun missile/rocket storage
the wing have a kind of radiator/vent.

the main body have a "yoke" at top

for the wing and thruster look this two model/ is the idea but in front should be 3 directional exaust.
Image

Don't hesited to post question

Thanks
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:04 pm

Here's version 0.2 - there is certainly much more that needs to be done before it is ready for texturing, but hopefully its starting to look recognizable.

Image

Image

Image

And 'seamless' versions

Image

Image

Image

Closer to what you had in mind? :mrgreen:

Advice always welcome!
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Fendorin » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:09 pm

is nice and enough detailled for me,

i guess the main central body is not yet worked?
the thruster, cockpit, and the above pack is well done !

one advice: about "style" if you can :try to add a visible asymetrical detail as on the "front cockpit sensor helmet"
you can do it just before texturing,
is always give more "complexity" to have this kind of asymetrical disposal.

otherwise for the handling of Wings3D it's seems you do it well then lets continue

any special details question feel free to post!!

thanks a lot to make this!
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:04 pm

Before I do anything else I have to deal with the dreaded non-planar plague. I've addressed them generally in this earlier post:

http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15499&p=118587#p118587

But I don't know how I should handle these specifically. Some of them will be relatively easy to get rid of, but others look kind of nasty.

Good thing wings does have a 'select non-planar' feature:

Image

Image

Are these worth 'fixing' - according to the above post, they could potentially cause problems with texturing :shock: What should I do?
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Fendorin » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:41 pm

sorry for late reply

for those non planar quad

maybe u can solve the problem to import your model into Blender (use obj file) and create tris instead of quad (manually)
and blender3d is much more better for texturing as is more easy and the rendering will render all maps with nice effect.
for wings3D i don't remenber very well but i have no idea

are you good as you are into modelling in texturing?
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:25 pm

If all I need to do is make those bad quads into triangles, it won't be a problem - wings 3D can do this easily.

But I remember from a post in an earlier thread by chuck Starchaser

Your mesh seems to show triangles. If you were an experienced modeler you'd know NOT to show
triangles. Meshes should be made of quads; --exclusively, if at all possible. Triangles are problems.
It is practically impossible to work with a mesh made of triangles. they are also not friendly to
sub-surface, and tend to cause shading problems with the bakes. Avoid triangles like the plague.
This mesh of a work in progress for a carrier is almost all quads, for example:

http://wcjunction.com/temp_images/lexington/shot13.jpg
http://wcjunction.com/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... 0858#20858


So I am not sure if triangulation is the best option.

I could subdivide or smooth the quads which would make them less non-planar, but certainly wouldn't fix the problem entirely.

It might be best to leave some of them alone, if the only other option comes with its own bigger mess.

You are far more experienced than I, so I am inclined to employ whatever technique you decide - i'm just trying to step back and take a good look at all of the options.

In the end, if I have to switch to blender to really do it right, I will, but I have no experience with it, and it will take time to learn.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Fendorin » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:46 pm

in blender 3D you can flat your twisted quad i don't remenber in Wings3d if it is a option into menu can do it
i m not a good modeller for those quad or triangles problem
for me a model is a model doesn't matter how is made
Shuckstarchaser post can help u more than i can.

two options:

try to find out how flatten your quad

or rework remodel those part
use it by addind details point

i mean the main body can be reworked for sure,
the cockpit part too
for the wings can be a solution to use it as a base for antenna.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Deus Siddis » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:54 pm

Regarding planar quads. I think you might be making a bigger deal out of this than there needs to be.

As I recall chuck_starchaser's pointed out in the past, it's basically impossible to have perfectly planar quads at most orientations due to the precision limitations of computers. For example, if a quad is oriented in cartesian space so that just one vertex has just one ordinate that is an irrational number, it'd take infinite memory to handle that value accurately. But computers have finite memory, so they estimate. And that estimation makes the quad not entirely planar, even though you, the modeler didn't do anything wrong or out of the ordinary.

So it's about keeping quads as close to planar as possible or adjusting them to be so. And actually viewing the mesh with smooth shading to look for artifacts, which it doesn't look like you've done yet.

Manual triangulation usually just makes any shading issues worse. The few times when there is any advantage to it, what you really need is more detail (polygons) over that part of the mesh because it's topography is changing too rapidly for such low detail. So:

1) Smooth shade the model.

2) Split sections and add detail to eliminate major shading artifacts. Do not triangulate quads.

Regarding the mesh in general. It is starting to look interesting for a wings mesh. But you should really upgrade to Blender if you are serious about finishing it. Also as you work on it, try to balance out the detail level more on the central sections. The rear fuselage mounted thrusters are very low detail and the midsection is too which might compound any non-planar shading issues.

Regrading the design. For vega strike, it's better if a model design fits the basic functionality of the craft in game. So up and down, left and right lateral thrusters would be very good things to integrate. In the right configuration these can also serve as rotational thrusters, unless the ship instead uses an internal gyroscope to change its orientation. Another consideration is keeping the main thrusters in line with the center of mass, so that the ship flies straight naturally. The big primary engines on the wings of your ship seem to droop downwards, which would probably make the ship try to nose up whenever they were firing.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:56 pm

Regarding planar quads. I think you might be making a bigger deal out of this than there needs to be.

As I recall chuck_starchaser's pointed out in the past, it's basically impossible to have perfectly planar quads at most orientations due to the precision limitations of computers. For example, if a quad is oriented in cartesian space so that just one vertex has just one ordinate that is an irrational number, it'd take infinite memory to handle that value accurately. But computers have finite memory, so they estimate. And that estimation makes the quad not entirely planar, even though you, the modeler didn't do anything wrong or out of the ordinary.

So it's about keeping quads as close to planar as possible or adjusting them to be so. And actually viewing the mesh with smooth shading to look for artifacts, which it doesn't look like you've done yet.

Manual triangulation usually just makes any shading issues worse. The few times when there is any advantage to it, what you really need is more detail (polygons) over that part of the mesh because it's topography is changing too rapidly for such low detail. So:

1) Smooth shade the model.

2) Split sections and add detail to eliminate major shading artifacts. Do not triangulate quads.


Thank You :mrgreen:

Regarding the mesh in general. It is starting to look interesting for a wings mesh. But you should really upgrade to Blender if you are serious about finishing it. Also as you work on it, try to balance out the detail level more on the central sections. The rear fuselage mounted thrusters are very low detail and the midsection is too which might compound any non-planar shading issues.


I will start trying to learn blender - wish me luck!
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Gungnir » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:09 pm

Dragonseraph Angel wrote:I will start trying to learn blender - wish me luck!


A couple of good sites for that:
http://www.blenderguru.com
http://www.blendercookie.com

Good luck!
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Deus Siddis » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:31 pm

Dragonseraph Angel wrote:I will start trying to learn blender - wish me luck!


I'll instead wish you good patience, because that's all you'll really need to learn blender or any other full featured 3D package. This is a complicated and essentially multidisciplinary art form, so be patient with your progress and just read, experiment, do tutorials and ask questions here or on one of the many blender community help forums. It takes time but it's powerful and rewarding.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby nphillips » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:49 am

I've been lurking....and wasn't comfortable saying anything about working in Wings...

But, now that it's been said: Use Blender, Blender, Blender!

Don't try importing the Robin from Wings into Blender. Start it from scratch. Why? It'll help you learn. You already have a decent design going, and rebuilding an existing idea is easier than trying to make something you don't have a firm vision of. Especially if you're new to Blender.

Importing models will just cause you headaches and result in you having to trash the model and start over, since you're still learning the ropes (for everything in modeling, not just Blender).

Also, I noticed that you seem to have some sections where objects intersect and aren't welded together (clipping). In the end, these will need to be welded together. The final model should be one solid unit. (There are exceptions to this, but it's not something you need to worry about right now.) As you're building, you shouldn't weld everything together, but you need to think about it while you're creating. For example, in your "non-planar" images, there are two cylinders (guns, thrusters?) on the edge of the cockpit/nose -- those will need to be welded to the main body in the end. You'll want to make sure you can easily combine the intersecting planes without generating too many tris; shouldn't be too hard, given the shape you have there.

Hope that's somewhat helpful, and good luck Blendering!

EDIT: Look through the VS and PU forums for chuck_starchaser's posts. He has a WEALTH of blender tips, tricks, and best practices. He has a couple VS wiki articles on various aspects of modeling. Read them (especially welding and beveling)
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:10 pm

Also, I noticed that you seem to have some sections where objects intersect and aren't welded together (clipping). In the end, these will need to be welded together. The final model should be one solid unit. (There are exceptions to this, but it's not something you need to worry about right now.) As you're building, you shouldn't weld everything together, but you need to think about it while you're creating. For example, in your "non-planar" images, there are two cylinders (guns, thrusters?) on the edge of the cockpit/nose -- those will need to be welded to the main body in the end. You'll want to make sure you can easily combine the intersecting planes without generating too many tris; shouldn't be too hard, given the shape you have there.


I know, I know. I was just waiting until the design was approved - I wouldn't want to go through the work of welding just to have to tear them off again! I have welded things in the past, and usually ended up making a big ugly mess, so I am definitly going to need more practice.

But something that is bugging me - why is blender so invariably prefered over wings? Please, understand I am not trying to start an argument - I am just curious. From what little I know, blender is considered one of the best free modelling programs, but what is the reason for all of the wings hate?

And what about K-3D, Art of Illusion, and Misfit - do all of them fall under blender's shadow? Is it just that blender is incredibly good, or is it that wings is really, really bad?

Hope that's somewhat helpful, and good luck Blendering!

EDIT: Look through the VS and PU forums for chuck_starchaser's posts. He has a WEALTH of blender tips, tricks, and best practices. He has a couple VS wiki articles on various aspects of modeling. Read them (especially welding and beveling)


I'll instead wish you good patience, because that's all you'll really need to learn blender or any other full featured 3D package. This is a complicated and essentially multidisciplinary art form, so be patient with your progress and just read, experiment, do tutorials and ask questions here or on one of the many blender community help forums. It takes time but it's powerful and rewarding.


A couple of good sites for that:
http://www.blenderguru.com
http://www.blendercookie.com

Good luck!


Thank you for all the support!

Lets make this an adventure! :mrgreen:
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Gungnir » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:28 pm

Dragonseraph Angel wrote:But something that is bugging me - why is blender so invariably prefered over wings? Please, understand I am not trying to start an argument - I am just curious. From what little I know, blender is considered one of the best free modelling programs, but what is the reason for all of the wings hate?

And what about K-3D, Art of Illusion, and Misfit - do all of them fall under blender's shadow? Is it just that blender is incredibly good, or is it that wings is really, really bad?


Wings has a bad reputation because as it's free and incredibly easy to start with, there's an immense amount of poor modeling from the newbies that can't do better (at least at that point). Also, it's method of modeling is extremely slow and far different from everything else.

As for why Blender is better, it's due to it's community, it's background (Blender used to be commercial, in-house software), and the open projects. Because of these, Blender is on-par with or better than even the high-end commercial software in many ways, when other free modelers tend to lag far behind.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:00 pm

Wings has a bad reputation because as it's free and incredibly easy to start with, there's an immense amount of poor modeling from the newbies that can't do better (at least at that point). Also, it's method of modeling is extremely slow and far different from everything else.


So is the bad rep mostly from newbies making crummy models, like me, or is it mostly issues with the actual program? And how is it so different from other programs?
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Deus Siddis » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:27 pm

Dragonseraph Angel wrote:So is the bad rep mostly from newbies making crummy models, like me, or is it mostly issues with the actual program? And how is it so different from other programs?


Wings is massively lacking in features. It doesn't seem to compare well to anything except other limited freeware programs. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Blender is roughly comparable to the 'Autodesks' or Cinema4D; expensive commercial full featured 3D software.

As you get closer to the texturing phase, the feature poverty will get worse very quickly. Your limited ability to preview the model and bake maps will be crippling, and UV support looks like it'll be much worse as well.

Further, Blender's pace and scope of development is great. Wings is relatively pathetic. So putting time into learning the former will pay more and more going into the future, while the latter will be more or less a dead end.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Gungnir » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:10 am

Well put, Deus. In addition, Wings relies heavily on N-gons (5+ sided faces), which tend to mess up shaders; and it's hard to get rid of them all.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby nphillips » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:45 am

The big issue around here with Wings is that it doesn't handle smooth shading and texture wrapping well. It also doesn't do ANY baking, which is critical for the new shader that chuck and klauss have been working on.

The modeling workflow is based entirely around blender's capabilities. If you can find a way for Wings to do everything they've done in Blender, good on you.

Blender is pretty good, and the community is vibrant and healthy. But it's not fantastic, and it's internal renderer is garbage.

Wings is a good way to get your feet wet with modeling. You get a feel for the space and manipulating stuff in 3D. But it stops there.
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Re: Remodelling the Robin

Postby Dragonseraph Angel » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

If you can find a way for Wings to do everything they've done in Blender, good on you.


Ha - it would be nice, but if blender is better, blender is better. :lol:
Even considering the unlikely possibility that I did somehow manage to get wings to work, it would probably take ten times longer than it would using blender.

at least I will get first hand chance to experience the contrast.

Wings is relatively pathetic


I heard they just now implemented booleans - in the form of a marginally functioning plugin. Now I haven't had that much experience with other software to compare this too, but I am pretty sure that K-3D, Blender, and Art of illusion can do them easily.

They still have room to grow - so personally i'm not going to write them off, but I am definitly looking up blender tutorials. :wink:
Dragonseraph Angel
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