Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

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Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Deus Siddis »

myself wrote:Have you given up working on the Vega Strike project in the capacity of content director?

Because we haven't seen you post anything in about 9 months now and there is a great deal of submitted content that hasn't been reviewed and art direction questions that haven't been answered.

Your help has been and would be greatly appreciated, but if you don't have any free time or motivation for this project anymore then I think someone or simple consensus will need to take over this role so that VS doesn't go into practically total stagnation from lack of approval and guidance.
jackS wrote:Yes and no.

Starting some months back, I began working on redoing the art design
process to fit the next generation engine that Daniel has envisioned,
but since I'm operating with long time horizons (order of a couple
years) the community should probably select a new content director for
the current generation games. Daniel and Patrick introduced me to a
group of people from the Art Institute of San Francisco, and, while
we're still in the infancy of content generation, we've made some very
excellent progress on organization, process and documentation
policies, so I'm actually very happy with the directions things are
going in.

Unfortunately, my time is deeply constrained right now, and dealing
with the VS forums in a truly serious fashion has, for me,
traditionally been both a large time sink, and, due to the presence of
a small number of (often well-meaning) people, not without some aspect
of frustration-induced emotional drain. While I will endeavor to
always be available for targeted consultation via e-mail with whatever
person or persons takes over the role of content director, I don't
feel I have the time and energy to perform day-to-day duties in any
near-term future. I am not without some feelings of regret and guilt -
there's plenty of signal to be found amid the noisy bustle of the
forums, and those people producing good work (like those voicing the
comm files) have been shortchanged by my inaction. I should have done
something about my absence sooner than this, and I
thank you for taking the time to poke at me.

If you have any personal interest in the position, from what I've seen
of your postings, I think you'd be quite decent at it. There are
certainly some that I could not say the same for, but, given my likely
degree of involvement in any near term future, I think it's something
perhaps better commented on from below by the community than shouted
down from some distant mountaintop.

I hope that, whatever ensues, things are able to move forward again
smoothly, and reiterate that, should whoever takes over have
particular questions of me, I shall strive to make myself available
enough to answer them.
myself wrote:Okay so if I am reading you right, it sounds like you are looking for a go between to pass on canon and art direction to the forum from you and the AISF folks while you are putting together the content design documentation for 'Sirikata Strike'. And also to direct and judge content for inclusion (if only any of us left had the technical know-how to actually implement it).

If you want, I will try to fill this role as best as I can for the interim period. And there's probably others who would volunteer and if they did would certainly bring good things to the table. I think the candidates would be:

Fendorin.

Safemode.

Chuck_Starchaser.

Turbo.

So as you suggested, I can bring this matter up on the forum so that the community can elect someone to fill this role or you can just pick him. Or you can pick out the people you'd prefer to have to work with from time to time and then let the community choose amoung them. I for one don't really care how or who is picked for the most part and I bet most of the other artists feel similarly, I just want to see things continue to progress under some kind of system. So let me know how you want to proceed and I'll do what I can to make it happen.
jackS wrote:One thing to think about is that there can be multiple people taking
on these responsibilities. I think if, for instance, you and Turbo
wanted to share some responsibilities, with Turbo overseeing voice and
sound related content, perhaps, that might work well, or so forth.
Likewise, if responsibilities are shared, it allows for people's
strengths to be played to and weaknesses hidden.

I think the best that can come of this is an opportunity for useful
decoupling between "good enough for now" and "fully adherent to
canon". You, or whatever person or persons ends up making such
decisions, can concentrate on the former while the latter is being
turned into something sufficiently tangible to be of high utility. If
we force ourselves into a mind-set wherein all content can be subject
to frequent iterative changes, and intermittent revolutionary changes,
I think we'll end up being happier than if we wait for everyone to get
on the same page at the same time (which, historically, has very
rarely happened). This is not to say that we should ignore what canon
we have, just that, in a mindset where we will eventually modify or
replace much of the existing content, quality and canonicity can be
traded off - works of high quality can be made use of provided there
is some minimal respect for the universe. There's still no need to
accept works of low quality.

As far as technical knowledge goes, if there's a list of task-specific
how-to's that need to be written/updated, I'm sure those of us who are
knowledgeable in the relevant arcana can be poked until we write down
all of the necessary steps :)
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by charlieg »

So it's now clear that all the old devs have "jumped ship" to this new version/engine that is not going to appear for an unknown time in the future (best case 2-3 years, probably longer).

So community members need to step up and take over.

What's needed are three teams.

1. Developers, ideally to start cleaning up the codebase and fix common complaints and support teams 2/3, with the first priority being creating a 0.5.1 release with all the new content
2. Artists (graphics/sound) to continue their excellent contributions and enhance the gameplay experience
3. Red pill coordinators to create more missions and game lore and review team 2's work and get it into the game
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Fendorin »

If i understand well
The current Vegastrike art content and creation is .. opened ? is seems to be clear we can replace or select what it can be?
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by charlieg »

Fendorin wrote:If i understand well
The current Vegastrike art content and creation is .. opened ? is seems to be clear we can replace or select what it can be?
Yes, this was my understanding also.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Deus, I'm not sure in what regard I could help; I'm not a VegaStrike connosseur. There's two separate issues here, the way I see it: VSG (game) direction, and VSE (engine) direction. For VSG I doubt I'd be of any help; but let me know if there's any niche I can fill. For VSE I'm an accomplished arm-chair code critic; but there'd be a need for people who can code. Nobody will ever be as good at that as Safemode was, I fear, tho. He wasn't quite as high as Klauss on correctness, but quite above average; and he was getting tons of work done, at the height of his VS career; --and Klauss simply doesn't have time anymore. If there's any way of luring or coercing Safemode back, that would be the surest way to breathe new life into this project. Otherwise, an army of coders might do it.

Sorry I haven't been around in a long time; and now there's so many new posts I can only check out a couple.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Deus Siddis »

chuck_starchaser wrote:Deus, I'm not sure in what regard I could help; I'm not a VegaStrike connosseur.
Well keep in mind VS has now become much more flexible in the creative department. So if there are things about it as a game and universe that have made it seem less attractive to you in the past, they might not be set in stone anymore.

I mean for examples we might not have battleships with windows and use chemical rockets on ships instead of plasma thrusters, but more capships measured in meters rather than kilometers and accelerations not in excess of 10gs for the fastest ships could be on the table now.
There's two separate issues here, the way I see it: VSG (game) direction, and VSE (engine) direction. For VSG I doubt I'd be of any help; but let me know if there's any niche I can fill.
Well off the top of my head, your technical expertise and tutorials on content creation are always helpful. And similarly, VSG might benefit from one or more of your high quality ships being used in VS proper when they are ready, if it is not graphically illustrated in WC copyrighted material, so that it is full GPL and doesn't conflict with this VSE legal policies or whatever. Because IMHO, having technically high quality examples like that in game can help show our 3D content creators what they should shoot for and where we as a project want to get to on a large scale.

Also since we are currently mostly without jackS and safemode, some guidance from the science/engineering perspective could help VSG maintain its many hard scifi elements and perhaps enhance them further as safemode had started doing and pushing for.
For VSE I'm an accomplished arm-chair code critic; but there'd be a need for people who can code.
If you know C++ or python that could be enough, if there is a klauss or safemode to help integrate it. Not sure what the deal with mesher is either, but that's basically a standalone, as could be other content pipeline tools.
Nobody will ever be as good at that as Safemode was, I fear, tho.
I know, having contacted and clarified what's going on with jackS, my next move was to try to contact safemode and see what his status is. If anyone already has his e-mail address though, please contact him about this or PM me his contact.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by chuck_starchaser »

What about Loki1950 and www2? Where are they? You should get made a board admin; then you'd
have access to all the emails you need.

Regarding things on the table, I doubt very much there's that much flexibility. It's not like they've
abandoned VS completely.
Anyways, you'd really not want to have WC ships in VS; nor Elite ships, for that matter; that would be
politically incorrect, I think. The only ship I got that's not officially WC is the Cutter; but I took pains to
make it as WC-ish as possible, and I think I succeeded. What I can offer is to model one; pass me a
link to a concept that needs to be modelled and I'll have it done in 2 weeks tops.
Well, I have the Toad/Hammer sitting there; I could expedite that one; --forget the CineMut aspects.

Engine-wise, I think the top priority right now is getting the damned thing to compile. Nobody seems
to know how to compile the damned thing, anymore. I'm in Ubuntu now; I managed to compile it for
Linux, but had problems with sound with the executable.
Klauss can't compile the engine for Windows anymore, because he says the last Visual Studio version
that could compile it was 7, I think, and he has 8.
Jsnmtth started a project to get a reference compiling platform for VS, but he got stuck somewhere
and never finished.
http://wcjunction.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1238
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Deus Siddis »

chuck_starchaser wrote:What about Loki1950 and www2? Where are they? You should get made a board admin; then you'd have access to all the emails you need.
Loki disappeared; www2 is who I got jackS email address from to start this off, so I've asked him about safemode's now too; will see if he has it.

We do need more than one moderator here though, but I don't know if I qualify for such a role yet, or what the rules are regarding giving someone mod status in the first place.
Regarding things on the table, I doubt very much there's that much flexibility. It's not like they've
abandoned VS completely.
Well like I said, changing ships over from high energy plasma thrusters to chemical rockets and putting windows on all the warships like in star trek would be the kind of change that goes too far and against canon, but other changes that don't directly conflict with what little established canon there currently is would seem to be possible for this interim period.

In fact, before he disappeared, safemode was exploring and moving the VSU in the direction of some pretty big changes, mostly in terms of realism. Like dumping wormholes and spec and as a result electrogravitic shields, thrusters and weapons, which jackS was open too as long as some FTL method was used instead of time-dilation so as not to interfere with future multi-player game-play.
Anyways, you'd really not want to have WC ships in VS; nor Elite ships, for that matter; that would be
politically incorrect, I think. The only ship I got that's not officially WC is the Cutter; but I took pains to
make it as WC-ish as possible, and I think I succeeded. What I can offer is to model one; pass me a
link to a concept that needs to be modelled and I'll have it done in 2 weeks tops.
Well, I have the Toad/Hammer sitting there; I could expedite that one; --forget the CineMut aspects.
The Toad/Hammer is good stuff, the cutter is good too though it lacks retro thrusters it seems like and maybe your errand model might also be a good example if it is a similar story to the cutter as far as distance from the WC IP.
Engine-wise, I think the top priority right now is getting the damned thing to compile. Nobody seems
to know how to compile the damned thing, anymore. I'm in Ubuntu now; I managed to compile it for
Linux, but had problems with sound with the executable.
Klauss can't compile the engine for Windows anymore, because he says the last Visual Studio version
that could compile it was 7, I think, and he has 8.
Jsnmtth started a project to get a reference compiling platform for VS, but he got stuck somewhere
and never finished.
http://wcjunction.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1238
Damn, more good news.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by nphillips »

Hey, guys --

It's been a few years, but chuck tapped me on the shoulder, letting me know that the VS project needs some help. It's exciting to see some life breathed back into the project, and I'm hopeful that we can get some momentum built back up.

My skills lie primarily in the arts, especially modeling. I'd love to dive in and crank some stuff out :)

Deus/Fendorin/anyone else, where should I start? I'm not overly familiar with canon, so it might be easier for me to work at rebuilding an old ship that's missing textures, LODs, or just plain sucks.

Let me know. :)
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by chuck_starchaser »

@Deus: I didn't say "moderator"; I said "admin"; but if www2 is still around, that's not necessary.
Okay; I think Toad/Hammer it is, then. (The Errand is definitely WC IP; it's from the WC movie.)
So, I'll just forget CineMut-izing the Hammer, and just finish a texture set compatible with the
current shaders.
But there's a couple of things I need to update on the VS shaders. I discovered a way of telling
the shader whether an AO is present or not, and whether shininess is present in spec alpha or
not, via the xmesh (by playing with the spec and glow color alpha values there, which are not
used, otherwise). I did this with PU's shaders, but never ported it to VS; and it's important.

@nphillips: I got an instant pang about that Space Elevator Car you modeled for VS, and almost
suggested you'd finish it; but to implement it in-game it would require programming. I think your
idea is the best: Taking an old ship and fixing it up nice. There's a wiki page that lists all the VS
ships, --old, new and yet to be-- and whether they are considered good or not. I don't have the
link on me right now. There's also art style guides in the wiki, I think; and probably Deus and
Fendorin are the ultimate authorities around to get feedback from.
Found the Art Style page:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/media ... yle_guides
Found the ships' status page:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/media ... Models#A-C

@All: nphillips used to be known in these forums as CoffeeBot; not sure if anyone except me
is old enough to remember him.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Fendorin »

HI I Addition i would like to introduce you the "Concept" repository in VS Gallery Part :
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... hp?album=6
I would like to propose to anyone want help the project by ad new or remodelled ship to open a thread by tacking one of the Ship already with advanced concept (As Aera AGIS... ) as at this stage is the most efficient way due to the fact we have already some stuff on it.
+ some Ship into VS are not perfectly integrate, as the Uln Knight, the size is wrong, and it's seems never appear into game as a uln ship..
anyway i have to take a look over stuff into game have to be fixed alot are alreday explain into the ships' status page:

Thanks to every body
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by nphillips »

Thanks for the helpful links, guys.

@chuck: Yeah. The elevator is a touchy one ;) One day we'll have it running :D

@Fendorin: I skimmed through the concept repo, as well as the ship lists that chuck provided....we've got a lot of work ahead of us :D

I'll start a different thread to address specific stuff, so we don't derail this one.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Fendorin »

Fendorin: I skimmed through the concept repo, as well as the ship lists that chuck provided....we've got a lot of work ahead of us
As you said we have a lot...
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Neskiairti »

squee! good luck guys.. VS has a warm fuzzy place in my heart :D I have been rather sad to see it ignored in almost all but the graphics department.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Nózmájner »

Heh. One goes for a while due to school, with occasional lurking, and when come's back, what does he see? A complete takeover.
I know I was usually showed up for a while then disapeared, but education and work drives me away. Anyway, I could do some concepting and modelling in this exam and practice period, if you think. (I need my regular dose of spaceships, and now that I have a bit spare time, why shouldn't I use that drive for something useful, also a good excuse to practice water colour painting and drawing too).
I could pick up the Aera concepting for example, let me dig up that ship description list Jacks gave me back then.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Neskiairti wrote:squee! good luck guys.. VS has a warm fuzzy place in my heart :D I have been rather sad to see it ignored in almost all but the graphics department.
Yeah, no kidding; and here I am, remodeling the llama and planning a new shader; yet you're absolutely right; I think there needs to be some serious story-writing and quest scripting, but that's not my kind of thing, so I do what I can. But someone should organize a think tank. And I think it should start with a full story, from the top down; and there should be heroes and villains and smart asses and nut-cases, as opposed to the complete vacuum of human and emotional content this game's forever been.
Nózmájner wrote:Anyway, I could do some concepting and modelling in this exam and practice period, if you think. (I need my regular dose of spaceships, and now that I have a bit spare time, why shouldn't I use that drive for something useful, also a good excuse to practice water colour painting and drawing too).
I could pick up the Aera concepting for example, let me dig up that ship description list Jacks gave me back then.
That would be great. Some modelers, like Fendorin, are real artists and can come up with their own concepts. Others, like myself, need a clear concept to work from.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Nózmájner »

Should I pick something (most likely Aera), or are there anything prioritized?
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by chuck_starchaser »

I should think there will have to be some brainstorming soon, with some prioritizations
as the outcome; but that has yet to happen. I picked the llama, for myself, just because
it's the first ship the player sees, so I want it to look nice.
For the Aera, there's been recurrent interest in modeling the Agesipolis, but it seems
that nobody likes the original concept. Check in this forum; scroll down just a little; there
was recent discussion and new concepts offered for it. Maybe you could come up with
a concept that modelers finally like.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Deus Siddis »

Nózmájner wrote:I could pick up the Aera concepting for example, let me dig up that ship description list Jacks gave me back then.
If you could, please post it here too in case that information isn't yet on the wiki.
chuck_starchaser wrote:I should think there will have to be some brainstorming soon, with some prioritizations
as the outcome; but that has yet to happen.
Which subjects specifically do you want to brainstorm on?

I have been planning to start some general design threads soon, though I'd have to think about where is the best place to begin.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Actually, I'm in no position to participate in brainstorming about design, due to my complete lack of knowledge of the vs universe, its factions, etceteras. I should be reading the art guidelines and every thread linked to from the ships database wiki page. I can only offer opinions in terms of modeling constraints, and what things make sense or not.
But what I thought when I wrote about a brainstorm is priorities. I don't think the ships page in the wiki indicates what's urgent, less urgent or not urgent. The amount of work needing to be done seems overwhelming, and picking something to do is perplexing.
Perhaps we could have a brainstorm thread about assigning priorities. For example, if one faction has fighters and carriers but no medium sized ships, --and if this were not so by design, of course--, then the priority for a corvette or destroyer or cruiser for that faction could be set high.
Or if there's a part of the main plot that hasn't been pythonized because it requires a shuttle and there's none, then a shuttle could be prioritized.
My priority suggestion would be to clean up existing ships first: Improve the mesh and UV unwrap, re-texture with shininess and AO channels and radiosity bakes. I think this would do more for the game than adding new ships. But even at that, I don't know how to prioritize, because I don't know what ships look worst, or which are seen more often.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Nózmájner »

Sure, here are those descriptions. I'm not going to paste it, 'cos it's rather long, so here comes attachment.

I've already drawed some of them back then (see concept gallery), I thing I will start with remodelling the smaller ones (they need retros, radiators, etc), and paralell with that I will start doodling with the agesipolis. Or with the smaller capitals first, to get back the hang of them.

Also I still have that Lemma I was working on.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Deus Siddis »

chuck_starchaser wrote:But what I thought when I wrote about a brainstorm is priorities. I don't think the ships page in the wiki indicates what's urgent, less urgent or not urgent. The amount of work needing to be done seems overwhelming, and picking something to do is perplexing.
IMO, the best thing to prioritize is the stuff we have the most canonical information on. And the second is what are the things that are either meant to be playable or seen the most often.
Nózmájner wrote:Sure, here are those descriptions. I'm not going to paste it, 'cos it's rather long, so here comes attachment.

. . .

Also I still have that Lemma I was working on.
Thank you very much, this information should be very helpful.

I forgot to ask, but do you still have the descriptions jackS probably gave you for the Unadorned or any other factions/ships?
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Nózmájner »

I have those somewhere. Let me mine a bit... Nope. That e-mail address I used back then is long gone, and it seems I forgot to save them. Anyway all of them was the Determinant, Derivative and Convolution, and the Lemma.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by Neskiairti »

Generally your going to want form to follow function, so first priority for any of these ship types, is figuring out what that races 'function' is. Thus, Story.

You probably want separate but interconnected story threads, one or two for each faction with plot, specific characters (heroes and villains?), and lots of detail. What you want to get out of this most is a feeling of the race for people to agree upon, putting all readers on the same page when thinking about that race.

For the ones writing, at first stick to the factions that arnt set in stone (canon wise) else your going to end up strangling the life out of the story with details they have to write circles around.

From that story once its been approved, edited, and modified to meet up with other story-lines; form is born.
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Re: Most Recent E-Mail Communication with jackS

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Yeah; bottom up approach. I agree.
But I think you meant to post this in the thread at the Documenting Vegastrike forum.
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