Wiki category for modeling

Thinking about improving the Artwork in Vega Strike, or making your own Mod? Submit your question and ideas in this forum.

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AzureSky
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Wiki category for modeling

Post by AzureSky »

In an attempt to make finding wiki articles about modeling and texturing easier to find, I've created a new Category:Modeling page, and have been trying to add this to the relevant pages (as well as Category:Blender [which was used by 1 or 2 articles already] and Category:Wings3D when the modeling info is tool-specific)

Here are the links:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... y:Modeling
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/Category:Blender
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/Category:Wings3D

So, am I missing any important pages? The idea for this is to tag all pages needed for getting a model in game; so modeling, UV unwrapping & texturing, mesher/xmesh/bfxm, etc.
chuck_starchaser
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Good stuff! Frankly, I don't understand the wiki organization at all. Pyramid has been working on wikis, but I only saw them when I followed his links from posts. If I go to the main wiki page, I've no idea where to find them.
The main page is divided into four quadrants, but it seems their purposes are overlapping. And there's confusing and ambiguous terms, like for example, in the first quadrant, first two items are "Manual" and "New Users Guide". I've no idea what the difference is between a manual and a users guide --sounds like synonyms to me--; much less what "new" means in a context where I don't see an "old". Everything seems to be kind of ambiguous, disorganized, or both. Speaking of which, your pages are great, but again, I wouldn't know how to find them except through the links in your post.
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Post by loki1950 »

Re the wiki search function
VsWiki:Searching
From VsWiki

The search function of VsWiki is useless. It finds 0 out of 20 articles about one topic. Everytime you type in a search you can assume the documentation is there, but you simply won't find it.

Better go to google and enter a search string like this "site:http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net YOURKEYWORDS" to search on the whole site. This way you get to almost every article.
:lol: :lol:

Enjoy the Choice :)
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AzureSky
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Post by AzureSky »

chuck_starchaser wrote:Speaking of which, your pages are great, but again, I wouldn't know how to find them except through the links in your post.
Categories are a special type of link in Wikis. When you include the category link in a wiki page's text, the category will appear in a box at the bottom of the page, and it will automatically add it to the summary page for the category.

Except for the 1 line summary I added, everything in the links above is auto-generated.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

AzureSky wrote:
chuck_starchaser wrote:Speaking of which, your pages are great, but again, I wouldn't know how to find them except through the links in your post.
Categories are a special type of link in Wikis. When you include the category link in a wiki page's text, the category will appear in a box at the bottom of the page, and it will automatically add it to the summary page for the category.

Except for the 1 line summary I added, everything in the links above is auto-generated.
I don't understand a single word you're saying... Not even half a word. Like you were speaking Aera slang :D.
But all I was saying is that I wouldn't know how to find your pages, navigating from the main wiki page.
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Post by pyramid »

It has never occurred to me that the wiki main page could be confusing. I always rather thought it very clearly separated (with some exceptions, of course):
* User Manual > documentation for playing VS
* Development > instructions for contributing coders and artists
* Getting help > wiki-external help

Within Developement, where I have been mostly dwelling, the main descriptions seem very self-explaining to me and I tried to order them by relevance. On top info for new contributors, on bottom info/reference for advanced contributors. It' snot entirely linear and suggestions for improvement are always welcome.

The Development>Development section has been my home for the last year and I am still not happy with it. My idea always has been to structure it better and at the same time be a reference page for all contributions. This is not a minor task and I was only able to put up the Art-Related information (minus ships & installations) accessible from one place in a structured and easy to find manner.

While I have started working on the units, what I would like to see (and will take up as soon as UnitConverter is more advanced and more complete) for units is one main link in Art-Related to a "Creating and Integrating Models" page that is then structured in some intelligible way, and each of the subpages then can have links to more specific tutorials and how-tos, e.g.

Creating and Integrating Models
> Model Requirements Reference (no how-tos, just specification for master files, obj/xmesh/bfxm files, textures, egine glows, naming conventions, whatnot....)
> Creating Models (with blender, wings, max, lightwave, ..., including export requirements)
> Texturing (general guidelines, tips, best practices, app specific tutorials, ...)
> Integrating, Testing, Submission
> Tools Reference (mesher, nvcompress, CubeMapper, shader, techniques, ...)

Usually that's the way I structure the pages I have already rewritten (mileage may vary depending on the specific topic. Examples:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... (graphics)
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... t_Surfaces
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... ackgrounds
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... ackgrounds
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... _Campaigns
Let's say you want to create a space background. There is the one page on system backgrounds that will guide you from the command line straight to vegastrike.

I see that many people seek information that is already available on the wiki through the forums. Part of the problem is structure, part of it is that we want to be helpful in replying to all types of questions. Personally I prefer to put an information on the wiki and then reply to a "how to" question by linking to the appropriate page if one exists. Just count the number of "how to" questions for the above examples over the last year. none.

On the other hand, documentation is something not many people like to do, nevertheless an integral and important part of multi-culture, multi-location, multi-capability community. It would be great and appropriate (though probably too idealistic to become true) if every person that actually works on some aspect of the data or engine would document just that parts of their work on the wiki. Only through the collaboration of all can the wiki develop into a useful place to look for information. It is a giantic task that cannot be accomplished not even by a titan of documentation.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Okay, maybe it's not as bad as it looks, and Development -> Development looks pretty neat.
My cow is with the main page, really; and Development -> Development is a prime example of a confusing link. How can a category "Development" have a sub-category "Development"?!; I never even *saw* that link, probably because I guess it makes so little sense that it got blocked at the visual cortex level, before even reaching any higher neural echelons :D

The Development quadrant (in the main page), could, for starters, be split into two categories or even new quadrants, because these two are almost completely unrelated:
  • Vegastrike Game (or other mods) Development --howto's, modeling, file formats, python, etceteras
  • Vegastrike Engine Development --compiling, code organization, etceteras.
My critique of the top-left quadrant stands: Its name (category) is "User Manual", so it makes no sense that the first two links in it are "Manual" and "New Users Guide". In general, webpages should be designed so that you don't have to click on a link to find out what it is about. But Manual and User Guide are *synonyms*, and the only way to find out what each of the two links is is to click on them.

How about have quadrants named,
  • Players' Quarter (A joystick pic, space is a bitch background)
  • Modders' Quarter (Dilloh's rabbit avatar pic, a blender background)
  • Engine Hackers' Quarter (HellcatV or Klauss' avatar pic, c++ background)
  • Miscellaneous and Links (image of TV snow)
?
It would be a lot clearer, for starters.
The naming of links is very critical. No less that 20 minutes of thinking should be spent on each link; and should be in some logical order.

But then again, I could do it, I suppose; I've never been sure who was in charge of the wiki's maintenance. But all I was trying to say is that there's something terribly wrong with that main page, because I know there's tons of good info in the wiki, but getting at it, --finding it, starting at the main page--, is a daunting thing. Well, maybe not now that I know about the Development -> Development secret door ;-)
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Post by pyramid »

chuck_starchaser wrote:and Development -> Development is a prime example of a confusing link. How can a category "Development" have a sub-category "Development"?!
I'm with you. This makes no sense at all.
chuck_starchaser wrote:I never even *saw* that link, probably because I guess it makes so little sense that it got blocked at the visual cortex level, before even reaching any higher neural echelons :D
Space is a harsh place to be :wink:
The Development quadrant (in the main page), could, for starters, be split into two categories or even new quadrants, because these two are almost completely unrelated
My only problem is that we are developing both, the engine and the game as the driver for the engine development and I wouldn't know under which section to look for the roadmap, the project information, the vs configuration variables, the python commands. They are all somehow important for both categories. We could either keep the quadrant, rename it as "Contributor's Quarter" and visually separate the General, Game/Data, and Modding sections, or proceed as you propose and make a link to the important pages from both quadrants. I'm fine with either way as long as I know where to find stuff.
But Manual and User Guide are *synonyms*, and the only way to find out what each of the two links is is to click on them.
Not a good way to be indeed.
How about have quadrants named ...
Let's try it out.
But then again, I could do it, I suppose
Being one of the few with the hang for documentation, I'd say yes.
I've never been sure who was in charge of the wiki's maintenance.
Being by nature a method requiring collaboration, all users registered in the forum are theoretically in charge. All the devs should be able to coordinate the contents, effectively who has time does.

Let's do it.
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Post by rivalin »

Really though, I know it's one of those tasks everyone would prefer not to complete, but a wiki without a search option is beyond ridiculous, and someone's going to have to deal with it at some point. If everyone really wants to get the wiki back into shape then that should be one of the top priorities.



ps; the new wiki front page is a definite improvement.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

@Pyramid: I'll work on it next weekend.

@Rivalin: I doubt the search function is "broken"; what I think the problem is is that nobody ever generated or updated the index. I use DokuWiki, myself, and I know there's a function in the administration page to generate and/or update the search indexes. I would do it myself, but I think you have to be an admin to access the admin section. It should just be a matter of pressing on a button, though. Maybe there's even an option to have the wiki update its search indexes automatically.
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Post by AzureSky »

chuck_starchaser wrote: I don't understand a single word you're saying... Not even half a word. Like you were speaking Aera slang :D.
But all I was saying is that I wouldn't know how to find your pages, navigating from the main wiki page.
Say you've found a page on the wiki (for instance, http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... oth_Groups, and you then want to find similar pages. At the bottom of the page, there's a box that says {Categories: HowTos | Modeling | Blender} etc.

This is separate from (and supplemental to) the main wiki page.
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Post by AzureSky »

chuck_starchaser wrote: My critique of the top-left quadrant stands: Its name (category) is "User Manual", so it makes no sense that the first two links in it are "Manual" and "New Users Guide". In general, webpages should be designed so that you don't have to click on a link to find out what it is about. But Manual and User Guide are *synonyms*, and the only way to find out what each of the two links is is to click on them.
I agree when you you say Manual and User Guide are synonyms, but...

To me, "User's Guide" and "New Users Guide" are not. The latter would be better named as "Guide for New Users" or better yet, "Quick Start Guide for New Players".

It's like buying a stereo; it comes with both a 100-page manual documenting everything, and a 1 page diagram showing how to plug it in.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

AzureSky wrote:Say you've found a page on the wiki (for instance, http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... oth_Groups, and you then want to find similar pages. At the bottom of the page, there's a box that says {Categories: HowTos | Modeling | Blender} etc.

This is separate from (and supplemental to) the main wiki page.
Okay, I get you now; but I'm not sure this is a good idea. I, for one, wouldn't even look at links at the bottom of a page.
Information overload is a real problem, specially on the internet. Most webpages, and specially wikis, have too many side panels and bars and whatnot, and economy of neurotransmitters dictates that only the center of the screen be looked at :D. Seriously.
I agree when you you say Manual and User Guide are synonyms, but...

To me, "User's Guide" and "New Users Guide" are not. The latter would be better named as "Guide for New Users" or better yet, "Quick Start Guide for New Players".

It's like buying a stereo; it comes with both a 100-page manual documenting everything, and a 1 page diagram showing how to plug it in.
Well, in that case, as you say, the name needs changing. I can't believe someone would have so little imagination as to name a link "New Users Guide", where the meaning of "new" is 100%... --perfectly-- ambiguous. I always assumed it meant a newer "users' guide" that obsoleted some older "users' guide", and every time I saw the link wondered "why don't they have a revision number, instead of calling it "new"?
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Post by Neskiairti »

yeah guide for new users would be better..
I see it the difference between man pages and a step by step tutorial that covers the neccessary basics.
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