Area carrier early mesh

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:37 pm

I'd highly recommend you learn Blender, if you're half-serious --make that 1/64th -serious-- about modeling. Wings is a toy.

As for criticizing you personally, if you don't like it, then don't ask for it.

Ares wrote:WHO'S NEXT? WHO'S NEXT? Who else wants to question my reading and cannon-ness abilities?
No offense of course

That was your reply to my quite fitting constructive criticism. And this has been your typical modus operandi each time you've graced this board with your visits, throughout the years: Show some laughable (or cryable), ridiculous garb... er... stuff; and then defend it, and argue, and defend it some more... Now the wiki ship descriptions are "boring", according to your high-most standards for excellence, so you're going to unfold your amazing artistic skills and improve upon the guidelines...
This does nothing for vegastrike, and it does nothing for your skills (except maybe it gives you writing and arguing practice).

And it's true that nobody is paying anyone a salary; this IS an open source endeavor. But Open Source doesn't imply that it's a free-for-all, or that this art vetting forum is a public garbage dump. The expectations ought to be lower than in a commercial enterprise, but not by much: Modelers are not easy to come by, but some put in some real effort and real work, and make things that at least try to fit the guidelines. In other words, you DO face some competition, here; but it doesn't seem to me you're even aware of the fact.

But to get back to topic...
Simple constructive criticism: Remove those ridiculous "wings", remove that ridiculous tube of a body, then start again, and do something half decent. And put some frigging details. And try to make things make at least a bit of sense, even if "it's just a game". Cut down on the attitude and defensiveness. Learn Blender, if at all possible within your busy scheule. And try to look at your own work with a critical eye before you post it, if you don't want others to tell you the things you don't want to hear. Finally, I would advice you take upon a small fighter. Carriers and large ships are work for the pros, and what you've shown here has never been as good as to even be considered beginners' level. Start small, do something constructive with constructive criticisms, instead of arguing, and finish something, for a change; --textures and everything.

Ares · Post by **Ares** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:00 am

@ Chuck: if you will go back and note you are the only one i've really defended myself from As it's obvious your dislike for my ship is your own opinion and noone elses. the other posts have some suggestions wich i'll be implementing but noone else started needlessly bashing me and my work.
Any talent you have has very quickly apparently gone to your head. You really need to chill the hell out.
I would love to learn blender. i'll give ya VS is a toy compared to that or 3D studio but i really dont have the time to spend learning blender and i dont have the money to sink $300 into a personal copy of 3D studio. (boy would i love to have that though, use it in school the stuff i could probably do with it). I DO THIS AS A HOBBY. FOR FUN. As most other people here do.
If you wanna sit here and walk me though the... unique interface Blender uses i would love to learn, but it really just isn't realistic right now.

Wings is a toy by comparison. ABSOLUTELY. but as i'm doing this as a hobby and as normally people use toys in hobbies i'd say it's a good match.

I'd continue with this but... why? you're not getting anything i say here through your skull either way so i fail to see the point.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:53 am

Ares wrote:but i really dont have the time to spend learning blender

and

I DO THIS AS A HOBBY. FOR FUN.

and

ABSOLUTELY. but as i'm doing this as a hobby and as normally people use

and

toys in hobbies i'd say it's a good match.

I always wonder how many neurons people have who equate "hobby" to something "not serious". If your hobby is not THE most serious thing in life for you, then what is? Your work? Then, if you're one of those lucky people who love their work so much then why not work over-time, instead of wasting your time (and other people's bandwidth) doing a hobby you don't and won't take seriously?

So, well, I bash apathetic people as a hobby, FOR FUN; so just keep posting garbage then, and I'll keep bashing you.

Ares · Post by **Ares** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:21 am

can i ban you from my topic for being a jack@$$?

noob, I have said MULTIPLE TIMES, in at least a couple different posts that while i am doing this as a hobby, i still intend on turning out useful GOOD QUALITY stuff, not crap. you really need to stop equating everything i have done here to my old work. Ya, I'm notoriously bad about not finishing stuff. I intend on finishing something quite good if for the sole purpose of shutting YOU up and you've already managed to make this thread a unpleasant place to post.
With all that talent and ego, shouldn't you be turning out new work for VS on a daily or at least weekly basis? i went through the list of meshes and authors and didn't see chuck in there except for the two previously shown ships. Someone else said you have contributed a lot of work to VS perhaps under a different name? Is it just not meshes or have you decided not to share your amazing god given gift with us lowly mortals?

**edit** nvm looks like it's mostly WC mod stuff. does that count for VS propper though?

**Edit** methinks we'll need a clydesdale to move that ego and all of your god given abilities.

Phlogios · Post by **Phlogios** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:42 am

I agree with chuck; what you have shown is definitely garbage.

Please don't compare your skills with chuck_starchaser's yet - at least not as a defensive act.

Chuck_starchaser has not only made wonderful models - he has taught us serious hobbyists tons of valuable skills. He taught me and kangaroo how to use Blender and he has written loads of superb tutorials, all up there on the wiki. You should read them, if you were serious at all.

Please remember that you showed us a far from incomplete model, and asked us for comments. The incomplete model looked like a flying harp/french hot dog - which you called an agesipolis. Then you admitted you didn't follow the artistic guidelines at all, the guidelines that our Minister Of Information wrote. For me, and probably to all other artists here, what the Minister says is law.

You have earned a bad reputation on this board for showing incomplete garbage and then getting defensive, using your obnoxious and disrespectful attitude. We told you this, and you still continue? Calling a veteran contributor (of 6000 high-value posts) jackass...

Crawl back into your hole and don't come back until you really have something we can't give bad critique - preferrably a textured model that looks like a ship. OR, learn to take bad criticism and learn from your mistakes.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:06 am

Ares wrote:I have said MULTIPLE TIMES, in at least a couple different posts that while i am doing this as a hobby, i still intend on turning out useful GOOD QUALITY stuff, not crap.

That will be a welcome change, but I'm not holding my breath.

I intend on finishing something quite good if for the sole purpose of shutting YOU up and you've already managed to make this thread a unpleasant place to post.

When that happens I will shut up; not before. I want to see ONE good piece of work from you, for a frigging change; or to see you gone for good.
By the way, I wasn't trying to make things pleasant for you here; I was trying for the opposite. Glad I succeeded.

Ares · Post by **Ares** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:58 pm

Either way, i'm not going away. I'm very stubborn

Ares · Post by **Ares** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:04 pm

Phlogios wrote:I agree with chuck; what you have shown is definitely garbage.

Please don't compare your skills with chuck_starchaser's yet - at least not as a defensive act.

Chuck_starchaser has not only made wonderful models - he has taught us serious hobbyists tons of valuable skills. He taught me and kangaroo how to use Blender and he has written loads of superb tutorials, all up there on the wiki. You should read them, if you were serious at all.

Please remember that you showed us a far from incomplete model, and asked us for comments. The incomplete model looked like a flying harp/french hot dog - which you called an agesipolis. Then you admitted you didn't follow the artistic guidelines at all, the guidelines that our Minister Of Information wrote. For me, and probably to all other artists here, what the Minister says is law.

You have earned a bad reputation on this board for showing incomplete garbage and then getting defensive, using your obnoxious and disrespectful attitude. We told you this, and you still continue? Calling a veteran contributor (of 6000 high-value posts) jackass...

Crawl back into your hole and don't come back until you really have something we can't give bad critique - preferrably a textured model that looks like a ship. OR, learn to take bad criticism and learn from your mistakes.

Did you read any of his initial posts here? i didn't start this and i at least tried to contain this to a PM, i DID follow the artistic guidelines i only stated i did not follow the exact description of the ship itself, i mentioned that earlier. Theres still no NEED anywere to call someones work garbage as there are NUMEROUS simpler meshes/ships already IN VS,

charlieg · Post by **charlieg** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:46 pm

Guys be constructive or leave alone. Let Ares do his thing and if he chooses to ignore your advice that's up to him; you can't force your opinions on people no matter who you are.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:01 pm

Very true, Charlieg; I'll leave him alone, for now. I just wanted him to know that his being defensive and throwing tantrums is not going to work; and that he'd better come up with quality models, and finish them, if he expects any applause.

Ares · Post by **Ares** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:44 pm

chuck_starchaser wrote:Very true, Charlieg; I'll leave him alone, for now. I just wanted him to know that his being defensive and throwing tantrums is not going to work; and that he'd better come up with quality models, and finish them, if he expects any applause.

thank you charlieg. Finally a voice of reason.

Chuck:
I never came LOOKING for applause. I came here LOOKING to help. and if you'd LIKE me to start pointing out meshes left and right that carry a FRACTION of the polygons mine has but have somehow become common galactic sights. i have only been defensive against YOU since YOU seem to be the only one that loathes the 'wings' so much.
And... it all honesty what IS a carrier? it's nothing more than a giant box to hold ships. Had you actually asked, i had a couple good reasons for sticking with a simple shape, one of wich being that giant tube could hod quite a number of fighters. I estimated it to be +50 as long as they were relativly small If i was to start trimming the extra here and there it would be a much smaller percentage. As the description itself says this is a mobile base. so you'd want a pretty large interior. belive it or not, except for some artistic swoops, wich also could hold a large number of turrets that with the diffrent angles the wing sits at could cover a large firing arc. The rear engines (while this was mostly accidental) happen to fall nicely along the center of gravity the ship would have.
Also, i posted a very unfinished model in the hopes getting comments on it might help me to get it better how people would like it BEFORE i do finalizing steps, ever try to re-work a finished mesh without messing it up completely or having to back up to the point you wasted a day or two? with all your experience chuck, you of anyone should be familliar with this.
I'm done 'defending' myself now, think i'll either go work on this or my giant floating high-tech boulder.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:22 am

Ares wrote:I never came LOOKING for applause. I came here LOOKING to help. and if you'd LIKE me to start pointing out meshes left and right that carry a FRACTION of the polygons mine has but have somehow become common galactic sights. i have only been defensive against YOU since YOU seem to be the only one that loathes the 'wings' so much.
And... it all honesty what IS a carrier? it's nothing more than a giant box to hold ships. Had you actually asked, i had a couple good reasons for sticking with a simple shape, one of wich being that giant tube could hod quite a number of fighters. I estimated it to be +50 as long as they were relativly small If i was to start trimming the extra here and there it would be a much smaller percentage. As the description itself says this is a mobile base. so you'd want a pretty large interior. belive it or not, except for some artistic swoops, wich also could hold a large number of turrets that with the diffrent angles the wing sits at could cover a large firing arc. The rear engines (while this was mostly accidental) happen to fall nicely along the center of gravity the ship would have.
Also, i posted a very unfinished model in the hopes getting comments on it might help me to get it better how people would like it BEFORE i do finalizing steps, ever try to re-work a finished mesh without messing it up completely or having to back up to the point you wasted a day or two? with all your experience chuck, you of anyone should be familliar with this.
I'm done 'defending' myself now, think i'll either go work on this or my giant floating high-tech boulder.

Well, if you're going to continue arguing after I said I'd stop posting, thinking of it as an opportunity to have the last word, think again, pal.
Typical falacy: It HAS to be a 1% done model you show for feedback, because a 99% done model would be hard to rework. No shades of gray.
I agree you shouldn't finish the whole model down to the nuts and bolts before asking for feedback; but extruding a tube and sticking two weird shapes and showing that for feedback, is frankly preposterous.
And this is not the first time. Here too:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... hp?t=11910
And if you're saying you're ONLY defensive to me, that's a huge LIE and you know it. There was a time when most people were friendly to you, in this board; --even I was--; and you threw it all away, just for being defensive and mean for no reason whatsoever.
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 8196#38196
In fact, in that thread you were getting more encouraging words than not; and the constructive criticisms were entirely constructive; but you threw a tantrum about those constructive criticisms, and later said,

Ares wrote:Well, i may have gone overboard, i just got quite annoyed when it seemed like everyone could find something wrong with my ship

. And that was yet another piece of garbage model of yours, really, that I and other people were just indulging you about, just to be nice and encouraging to a struggling newbie. But the nice comments and white lies seem to have gone to your head, instead; and to have remained there to this day.

charlieg · Post by **charlieg** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:59 am

Chuck: It's just the Internet and you'd have lost nothing by forgetting this thread ever existed and ignoring it. Now we have a flame war and that helps nobody.

Post by **klauss** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:14 am

I would love to lock this thread with this last post, but I will not, so that I may give you both an oportunity to cool down and try to get something constructive out of this thread.

I agree with chuck in his artistical view, but there's something even more important I'd like to point out really clear. Something I'm saying hoping not only you Ares will accept, but any and all visitors reading this thread.

Ares wrote:i DID follow the artistic guidelines i only stated i did not follow the exact description of the ship itself, i mentioned that earlier.

vs

Ares wrote:Also i should probably note that i did kinda throw the described design on the wiki out the window and kinda followed my own design for this ship. The described one was boring and that picture wasn't any descriptive help...

I don't know about the last sentence... the concept might have been incomplete or misleading or whatever. However, the way to address that problem is not to throw the concept out the window, it's to ask the concept artist for clarification about the intentions behind it. Picking the first option over the second one has been VegaStrike's biggest error of all time, resulting incongruent and discordant art all over the place. Your model if approached that way would only exacerbate the issue and oppose this new unusual and innovative movement VS has recently tried of adhering to its own concepts.

The quality of a game's assets are measured as a whole, and not model by model. A gorgeous model can certainly be the discordant one that spoils the whole set. I'm not saying anything about your model, only your approach to modelling for a game disregarding style guidelines.

Before modelling anything, be sure to have a hand-drawn sketch approved. Picking out a concept sketch is the easiest way to do that. But if you don't like the concept sketch, draw your own, and get it accepted as a concept sketch.

If I was minister of information, I would pass out a law that any model gets automatically rejected if it does not implement a previously accepted concept sketch.

Ares · Post by **Ares** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:21 am

charlieg wrote:Chuck: It's just the Internet and you'd have lost nothing by forgetting this thread ever existed and ignoring it. Now we have a flame war and that helps nobody.

I agree. I'm done talking to chuck. all i was doing is stating a little of why, if chuck finds that as me getting defensive I'd say that's grasping at straws.. i wasn't insulting nor was i sarcastic and he just goes and references something i decided wasn't very good and kinda pointless to include, since there's at least a couple ships like that now. and something from 3 years ago.I could say 'great work there chuck your a benefit to the community' without any sarcasm at all and being completely truthful (Which he is with what he has contributed) in saying it and he'd still have to have the LAST post. Almost thought we had a agreement here. Nobody benefits from needless attacks like that.
While maybe i don't focus as heavily on improving my skills in this as i should, I'd like to think i have evolved a bit since 3 YEARS AGO though...

(Waiting on your post chuck from this point on i'm just posting on this in relation to the actual ship.)

I am thinking i might redo the mesh but the design will generally be the same. opinions? other critiques?

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:56 am

Ares wrote:I am thinking i might redo the mesh but the design will generally be the same. opinions? other critiques?

That's NOT the way it works.
This is the concept art that's given:

So your job, if you accept it, is to come up with something that resembles the concept, like,

THEN you ask for feedback, opinions or critiques.

Phlogios · Post by **Phlogios** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:30 am

Or, if you don't like the concept, draw a new concept (a drawn concept is much harder to call garbage

) and get someone to nicely ask the Minister if it's all right.
There are plenty ships that don't have concepts, so just pick a free one and draw a concept

It works for Fendorin who frequently spits out awesome designs.

Ares · Post by **Ares** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:06 am

chuck_starchaser wrote:
Ares wrote:I am thinking i might redo the mesh but the design will generally be the same. opinions? other critiques?
That's NOT the way it works.
This is the concept art that's given:

So your job, if you accept it, is to come up with something that resembles the concept, like,

THEN you ask for feedback, opinions or critiques.

See the problem is, even extruded 3-dimensionally from the concept art i don't really LIKE that design. and with the exception of the radial symmetry of the wings/extrusions/whateverthehell you want to call them. it really doesn't strike me as that Aeran. What the hell are those tubes on the back even supposed to BE? Engines? You're telling me extruded tube engines would look better than the ones i made that were flush with the ship and integrated into it like on there fighters? If minister chimes in and says that's what it has to be, i'll either do it or move on to another mesh. Frankly even you have to admit that drawing is a little less than amazing (no offense to the author). and concept art is just that - CONCEPT art. It isn't set in stone.
how about a compromise? I'm not unreasonable. Look at this objectively though for a minute for god sakes...

rivalin · Post by **rivalin** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:18 am

Ares wrote:
I'm not unreasonable. Look at this objectively though for a minute for god sakes...

that's a classic quote

Seriously pal, just so you don't get the idea that Chuck is out to get you and your amazing ship designs and everyone else who's neutral loves them; I wasn't around when you were posting before so I can say with complete neutrality that that ship is just not good. And yes, maybe people have been a bit rude, but here's an analogy;

If you walk up to a girl in the street and ask her out and her response is "GO F**K yourself you F**** ***** *****." then it would be fair to say that's quite rude.

If you ask a girl out once and she politely declines, then you follow her home, ask her again, stalk her for a while, send to her hate mail when she turns you down etc, then she says "GO F**K yourself you F**** ***** *****." then it would be fair to say that's an understandable response.

People try to be constructive for a while, but if you can't take a hint and start having a go at them then eventually they're going to have to be rude in the hopes that you'll actually listen. I mean 3 people have told you to make a concept and that that is how it works around here now, you need to have a concept, but no doubt your "compromise" is to just keep using your current model. Honestly, just make a concept sketch

ps why do you again and again equate high polygon counts with better models? If I throw a bucket of paint on some canvas does that make me a better artist than Picasso, because my paintings have more paint?

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:13 pm

Ares wrote:See the problem is, even extruded 3-dimensionally from the concept art i don't really LIKE that design.

And, you see, the problem is, nobody here gives a damn about what YOU like or don't.

and with the exception of the radial symmetry of the wings/extrusions/whateverthehell you want to call them. it really doesn't strike me as that Aeran. What the hell are those tubes on the back even supposed to BE? Engines? You're telling me extruded tube engines would look better than the ones i made that were flush with the ship and integrated into it like on there fighters? If minister chimes in and says that's what it has to be, i'll either do it or move on to another mesh. Frankly even you have to admit that drawing is a little less than amazing (no offense to the author). and concept art is just that - CONCEPT art. It isn't set in stone.
how about a compromise? I'm not unreasonable. Look at this objectively though for a minute for god sakes...

Looking at it objectively, I think that what I think is the front of the concept you think is the back, and viceversa. To me, those tubes are fighter launch tubes, at the front; but you might be right. Frankly, I know nothing about this concept, or about the Aera, or about Vegastrike; that's why I'm involved with a different mod. But if I had taken up the job of modeling the Agesipolis, I would have started off by asking JackS a whole lot of questions about the concept, rather than dismiss it outright, like you did. And whether what I think is the front is the back or not, no offense to the either author, I think the original concept art, artistically speaking, is about 10^6 times better, --make that infinitely better-- than the crap you posted.

In any case, if you don't like the official concept of the Agesipolis, then take that up with JackS directly, send him a private message or email, discuss it with him, or simply pick a concept you DO like. But you're MUCH less than a frigging NOBODY here, (and much less than a newbie at modeling, I might add), and you have no business whatsoever taking just the name "Agesipolis", doing your own CRAP using that name, and asking for public feedback on that crap.

If you're going to do your own crap, then come up with a new, suitable name for it, like "Arescrapolis".

Phlogios · Post by **Phlogios** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:00 pm

I am also bugged by the more polies = better ship thing. A ship with a good design could have like 500 polygons, and still look better than a ship with a bad design that has 100,000 polygons.

charlieg · Post by **charlieg** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:01 pm

Chuck, why are you being so offensive? I read through the thread and you are constantly hostile from beginning to end and the last few pages you are now being offensive. It's just not called for, not at all. If you were a new member of the VS forums, I suspect you'd have been banned for that behaviour.

Post by **chuck_starchaser** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:27 pm

Simple mechanics, Charlieg. Years ago, whenever Ares posted some model and asked for feedback, he argued back at every constructive criticism; then he'd throw a tantrum about there being too much criticism. In other words, his asking for criticism is, and has always been, a pretense, a falsehood. Go click on the Search button, put "Ares" in the Author field, and hit Enter, and read through some of the old threads, if you have the time. He doesn't care to help Vegastrike; he only comes here craving for attention, and doesn't even bother to follow artistic guidelines or concept art. He started lots of models and never finished any. And in spite of having no modeling or artistic skills whatsoever, is arrogant as all Hell, like look at the titles of some of his old threads, such as "The Franklin gets competition" and "Not to steal the spot light...". In particular, Charlieg, please read this post of mine:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 8129#38129
Do you find anything I said there sounded "insulting", or even "critical"?
Then go to the next page, and read the way he replied to me.
Was that in any way justified? Gratuitous rudeness for no reason whatsoever.

So, the simple mechanics of it is like in Game Theory: In the last turn, I played Cooperate, and he played Attack.
So now it's Tit for Tat... this turn I Attack first.

But, on the more "constructive" side of things, if he thinks he's going to get away with his old trick of pretending to ask for constructive criticisms and then getting defensive and throwing tantrums when he gets them, I'm going to disabuse him from that notion by telling him how I *honestly* feel about his "work", AND his persona, from the outset.

EDIT:
One more thing, Charlieg: If you remember, a few posts back I took your suggestion, put my weapons down and said "I'll leave him alone for now."
What did HE do about it? Fired back.
So, why are you singling me out?

Ares · Post by **Ares** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:06 pm

charlieg wrote:Chuck, why are you being so offensive? I read through the thread and you are constantly hostile from beginning to end and the last few pages you are now being offensive. It's just not called for, not at all. If you were a new member of the VS forums, I suspect you'd have been banned for that behaviour.

Cuz for whatever reason he just can't except the fact that maybe i actually AM here to help.
So is the general consensus that nobody with the exception of one or two, likes the design? (chuck comments will now be ignored)
Perhaps we can brainstorm some kind of a hybrid? Cuz that concept art is just... obscure.

Post by **loki1950** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:18 pm

To all parties in this little verbal war cease and desist i have considered moving this thread to the graveyard during the last couple days where it is read-only.THE WAR IS OVER.

Enjoy the Choice