[multyplay/mmo brain storm] Development and network isuses

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[multyplay/mmo brain storm] Development and network isuses

Post by www2 »

Dis topic is about the development for the multyplay/mmo mod/version of vegastrike for feature requeste/ideas do dis in this topic...

I wand this thin's discust in dis topic:

1. network infrastructure...
How wand the game network like...

2. the planning of the multiplay road map...

3. Discusion's about rules for game moderator, game admin's and server admins

4. Discusion's about rules for ingame and server securty (dis also point 3.)

5. With database we use on the server

i think that we postgetsql can use as database...


Network/mmo topics in the forum:

what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?
Dis is a old main stream topic about multiplay... (waring very long tipic!!!)

multiplayer concerns
the furst topic about in game securety

My thoughts on Freelancer, Vega Strike
dis old topic form 2003-2004 is about freelancer and hef fiew good ideas

List of point's that i forget:
not at this moment
Last edited by www2 on Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

I know just enough about networking to know it's far beyond my programming skills; and that homogeneous distributed systems, such as needed for MMO's are pretty hard to do. So I can't help much with your project except perhaps in brainstorming. I'm definitely interested in an MMO concept being part of the engine. When I was discussing multiplayer issues with Coffee Bot, for our mod, we came to the conclusion that we wouldn't care for network play unless it would be MMO style, and we didn't think the latter was likely to happen any time soon, so we settled for single player game only. But if you make MMO happen, we'll definitely jump on it.
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Post by www2 »

@chuck_starchaser

I'am hef also not skills for do this...
i am more a site/linux/network admin/web disiner...
And i say that dis is a brain storm for putin idea's and discusion's...

And about the server problem...
In the flightsim world i think almost 10 year old workt in a world wide server cluster...
and the most server's ar normal home computer at home...

and on pitch moment's is on a network 1000 players online

and for mmo mod can we use dis system for the diferent part of the univers
1 part of the univers == 2+2 servers 2 real servers and 2 back up servers if 1 of the real servers down can the back up server proses the user's form the server that now down is...
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Post by Guest »

oooh yes!

an MMO mod for vegastrike would be such a perfect idea!

or better yet multiplayer mod.

the following thing I want to see in an mmo or multiplayer of vs:

* no autotracking or aiming. because it will be abused alot by player killers and if you don't have autoaiming or tracking feature for your gun, expect to be toasted.

* capital ships should be very expensive. i don't want all the players flying the capital ship in the long run if they are mega rich. the main gameplay focus should be flying small/medium twitchable space crafts like fighters types, small twitchable cargo ships, prototype ships, utility ships and so on.capital ships should not menuver at all instead it should have something to plot courses to get from point A to point B. Like a boat cruiser.

* for operators, don't kick people out if there are some people going on a blantent player killing spree on a regular basis. in a matter of fact, player killing should be the part of the game. along with pirating as well. for zones where newbies launch for the first time, add heavly armed turrets for those who think it's a good idea to kill newbies.

* add a swear filter to the client side. so the user has the choice to have swearing filter enabled or disabled.

* for stations, there should be two exit ports. the docking bay, and then theres 1-3 launching bays where players launch their ships. when a ship docks, it should disappear meaning that it's in station.

eventhough this game is opensource, how are we gonna prevent cheating?

is there a thread about this you want to point me to?

should planets, station, astroids orbit in multiplayer mode or should they stay like freelancer?

though yes the problem you will run into is two things:

* bandwidth, it requires a ton of computer resources and bandwidth if you don't have the algorithm to make it cheaper.
* there will be more than one universe server. so you will never see hundreds of players online at the same time.
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Post by www2 »

Guest wrote:oooh yes!

an MMO mod for vegastrike would be such a perfect idea!

or better yet multiplayer mod. Jp is a fucking asshole

the following thing I want to see in an mmo or multiplayer of vs:

* no autotracking or aiming. because it will be abused alot by player killers and if you don't have autoaiming or tracking feature for your gun, expect to be toasted.
oke i think also no autotracking
for the same reasinen also pute the colack out of the game

* for operators, don't kick people out if there are some people going on a blantent player killing spree on a regular basis. in a matter of fact, player killing should be the part of the game. along with pirating as well. for zones where newbies launch for the first time, add heavly armed turrets for those who think it's a good idea to kill newbies.
good pont
eventhough this game is opensource, how are we gonna prevent cheating?
1. it is opensource all user's can say ths source code...
dis is also a pont in dis topic...
And i call it: game securety...
is there a thread about this you want to point me to?
Network security And infrastrut
and multiplayer concerns
should planets, station, astroids orbit in multiplayer mode or should they stay like freelancer?
planets, stasions and astroids ar orbiting
only the stasions geostationary orbit
though yes the problem you will run into is two things:

* bandwidth, it requires a ton of computer resources and bandwidth if you don't have the algorithm to make it cheaper.

* there will be more than one universe server. so you will never see hundreds of players online at the same time.
I know about dis 2 problem's...
And my solution using a multyplay network like in the flight sim world...
only difrens ar that in the flight sim world 2 to 20 servers for 1 world
and in my idea is that 1 server only 1, 1.25, 1.5 or 2 ariea host in the game world...
And if the server got offline can older servers take tranparant parts of the offline server...
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Thinking about the technical difficulties in MMO synchronization gives me a headache. Naturally, you'd want to dynamically map virtual world localities to real world localities, so that people in the same system or planet all have fast connections to a common, local server. I say "dynamically" map them, because if you do a static mapping, then people in Montreal could only know one part of the game universe, and people in Tokyo another. But then, if two servers are in different countries but can somehow guarantee low latency to each other, two regions of the virtual universe could be joined.
Like I said, I know next to nothing about networking. Can a server specify that a stream of packets must be low-latency --i.e. underwater fiber-optic, as opposed to satellite? Updates of world data that aren't time-critical could then be tagged for batching through a satellite connection, but all position, velocity and firing data of players in a common theatre be specified it must use optical link?
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Post by chuck_starchaser »

Thinking about the technical difficulties in MMO synchronization gives me a headache. Naturally, you'd want to dynamically map virtual world localities to real world localities, so that people in the same system or planet all have fast connections to a common server. I say "dynamically" map them, because if you do a static mapping, then people in Montreal could only know one part of the game universe, and people in Tokyo another. But then, if two servers are in different countries but can somehow guarantee low latency to each other, two regions of the virtual universe could be joined.
Like I said, I know next to nothing about networking. Can a server specify that a stream of packets must be low-latency --i.e. underwater fiber-optic, as opposed to satellite? Updates of world data that aren't time-critical could then be tagged for batching through a satellite connection, but all position, velocity and firing data of players in a common theatre be specified it must use optical link?
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Post by Rabiator »

Do we really need to tightly synchronize the whole universe?
Right now there is no way to fly directly from one system to another, and jumping to a new system would be the logical occasion to hand your ship over to the server managing the new system. At this point, I think some delay in establishing the connection to the new server would be acceptable.
It also would reduce the minimum load on an individual server to that of handling the system in question. Which could still be a problem when hundreds of players meet there. But hey, even industry giants like Blizzard are said to have problems with that :wink:
Guest

Post by Guest »

you guys would be better off with a freelancer style map where planets, stars, and stations don't move just to save a lot of work. nebulas astroid fields, etc.

add a storyline to the multiplayer vegastrike universe where phsyics has changed to a point where most objects to not move...

but planets can still rotate.

the hardest part for vegastrike multiplayer is gonna be the astroid fields.

are they gonna be static or dynamic?

if dynamic, are they gonna stay there or are they gonna disappear when they get mined by some vessels?
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Post by aramova »

I think Eve Online http://www.eve-online.com has the whole system for capital ships, and such down pat. It's a space MMO that's been going on 3 years now.

There are a lot of aspects involved with MMO style games, I ran a text based mud for 5 years back in the mid 90's...I'll post some ideas over the next few days :)
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Post by www2 »

@aramova
sory for the late respons
i know about eve-online and a few idea i hef put in dis forum (most GUI not game play) come form eve...

and here infomation and developenmet form (part) open source mmorpg Eternal Lands with tips...
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Post by Shilette »

well if vegastrike was to go mmo, i would like to see the ability for other people to host different shards of vegastrike.

but if you want to host a VS MMO you probably need to get an expensive computer.

i don't even know if there is a way to make VS mmo effecent for the server and client but it would be very exciting.

it would also be very exciting for VS mmo version to have hundreds of players online.

but before VS goes multiplayer it needs a major sounds and some gameplay revamp, see my other thread 4 details.
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Post by www2 »

Shilette wrote:well if vegastrike was to go mmo, i would like to see the ability for other people to host different shards of vegastrike.
and dis is also use in the fs world...
dis is also my idea...
but if you want to host a VS MMO you probably need to get an expensive computer.
dis is bad a idea for my creditcart/bank acount :evil:
i don't even know if there is a way to make VS mmo effecent for the server and client but it would be very exciting.
i know that one of the core member working on the network suport...
it would also be very exciting for VS mmo version to have hundreds of players online.
i know dis is most PR work as news and screenshots on mmorpg.com like sites...
but before VS goes multiplayer it needs a major sounds and some gameplay revamp, see my other thread 4 details.
oke...
i know about game play...

<offtopic>
about 3d art/2d art
i think more in the direcion of the manga/anime and the frands/belgis/ducht Comic Strips (dis is only my idea... and oder users hef older ideas)
</offtopic>
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Post by Paslowo »

Nice subject...

Thought it might be ok to bump this since I have my comments coming soon but for now I have to sleep.

For the time being.. I am running google searches on how to make a very efficent(and possibly low cost) mmo like servers to host 100's players online but in reality it might not be possible though I really don't know if there is someone at universeity doing a research on how to find a most efficent way to host a ton of players online.
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Post by robothead »

the main vegastrike multiplayer needs something that will reattract the space sim renaissance enthusiasts(that means people who are a fan of X-Wing and Wing Commander type games, and stuff) like me..

I found out that Freelancer and the X series did not satasfy these type of people.

however as vegastrike is opensource, there can be many different types of 3rd party(as in seperate) multiplayer type mods for people who are interested in something else besides space flight only.

look at starwars for an example: they had many different game titles ranging from different gameplays. XvT was space flight only, Starwars: Battlefront was being able to do twitch combat and command things. Starwars: empires at war was an RTS only type game.
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Post by croxis »

As far as the technical side of eve- they use a mssql database and use a shard server, with one solar system per shard.

It will probably be best to use the eve/privateer model where you have to jump to a different solar system. This way different computers can host different solar systems (So a server can take on a region for example). A server going down might be a problem however.
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Post by triato »

About gaming rules, I think they should be kept to a minimum. The game itself could be made in such a way that few rules are needed to prevent exploiting it. Many ideas for this have been posted on the previous multiplayer discussion.
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Post by www2 »

@croxis
that is also my idea...

only that 2 or 3 serves responsible is for a region...

e.g.
server 1
region 1
region 6
region 9
server 2
region 2
region 4
region 20
server 3
region 3
region 15
region 19
etc etc etc
note: this example is more than 20 servers online
The region withe the same numer as the server is the main region and the oder 2 is only for backup is the server for that region is crasht os down for updates...
older tipe's of servers ar
* acount server
this server is for all acount data and this is for login the game and access on the web for edit your email, password
* cheat server
the name sey it all :P
* transactions/trading server
the transactions/trading server is for the trading goods and mony transactions....
also is responsible for the goods that your hef in your station hangar...
* update /media server
this server is for the updates for the game and can split in 2 parts...
part 1 the linux and windows update server...
the gole of this part is update the game clenet...
note: in linux use the apt-get / yum like system, in windows and mac run we a update progame before the game and download a xml/txt file with the courent version and md5 check sums for the game file's
part 2 content server updates
the content updates is live downloading in game and save on your HD for futer use...
in linux and meby mac OSX need a folder the 777 or the 707 premision for the save the content...
on windows is on problem on this...

note: the server that in this secion cane in 1 computer...
so this post is loner than i expete....
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Post by Paslowo »

The bottom line I might find about this is, all the servers might need to get ready to handle lots of players if there is a certain event going on (it lots of people in one reigon), and servers must be up at all times.
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Post by www2 »

@Paslowo
i forget all servers work on min 2 a 3 computers...
the acount server 1 cane work on the region server 2
and the acount server 2 is on the same system as the chat server...
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Post by Stakhanov »

Guest wrote:* for operators, don't kick people out if there are some people going on a blantent player killing spree on a regular basis. in a matter of fact, player killing should be the part of the game. along with pirating as well. for zones where newbies launch for the first time, add heavly armed turrets for those who think it's a good idea to kill newbies.
Yeah , it should be up to the newbie hunter to lure them in deathtraps himself...

"Will buy specialty wines for 20k credits each , bring me as much as you can" :twisted:
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Post by robothead »

there should be some safe areas for newbie usually spawn at or go around.

we need to have some type of grinding in this game so we can identify who is a newbie and who is not.

in safe areas where stations are at, usually the npc uberguards should spawn after newbie killers.

i should have a multiplayer plan in place soon.
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Post by Fade »

First of all we have to redefine component in a game so that the entire server architecture could be replaced by a thread/set of functions to solo game.

We also have to think that, as open source, we may have cheaters. That's why hosting money/stock/belongings of player should be centralized on one (set of) servers and so are every transactions. If there is no way to prevent a player from being richer by modifying the game to get a indestructible ship or pick a non-existent cargo from a docking bay, we're done. Nobody will want to invest time in the game, so there will be less people playing.

That's why we need this kind or architecture :
- local space servers
Each group of player wich can interact should be connected to the same server in order to have "low latency" battles. These server would have to check some manoeuvers to see if there is or not cheating in movement. The damage, shields, etc would be of course directly handled by server, not the client.

- community server :
-- chat server
-- fake intersideral web server
-- administrator information

- admin servers
-- authentication
-- character database (money, belongings, reputations, etc)
-- AI database (factions, corporations, etc)
-- universe database
-- economic simulator
-- maintenance server (interface for GMs)
-- log


Of course, all these server can be sustained one one computer, at least at the beginning.
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Post by dust »

http://spring.clan-sy.com/
http://www.spring-portal.com/

it has some nice multiplayer features
Image
Image


http://trac.springlobby.info/

chat
Image
Battlelist
Image

Battleroom
Image

Battleroom map tab
Image

Single Player
Image

Integrated Downloader
Image

Features and goals:

* Implemented in modern C++
* Depends only on wxWidgets (later also boost) so works on many more platforms than spring itself.
* License is GPL 2 (free as in freedom)
* Clean and intuitive user interface
* Full UTF-8 support
* Clean design, clean codebase, well documented (soon at least)

auto download of updates, mods and maps via torrent and / or webserver.

its gpl and both have the same goal, a cooperation between vs and spring makes sense.
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Post by loki1950 »

That looks good dust may be a bit overkill for our present state but i'm sure we can grow into it 8)


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