what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

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Post by Guest »

Permanent death being toggled on or off server option wise would be a good idea. If vegastrike multiplayer ever comes, you can try the permadeath option and if people do not enjoy permadeath, then we can toggle that off.

But how are we gonna handle the death system if perma death is turned off? Cloning? Respawning? Automattically being put in a pod using some common yet sophisticated teleportation technology to get back to your home station?? Magically beaming back to your home station??

As for the sophisticated teleportation technology it will not work if the craft is heavier than the escape pod itself, and it can only be used once. Sort of like disposable and at least cheap to make these days.

Not everyone likes permadeath though.
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Post by hurleybird »

Ryder: That sounds awesome, I would definantly play iron man if it were set up as you had described... or maybe I'd end up being one of the capship weilding GM's :)

In any case, the idea of eliminating NPC's from the equation is great, and would solve the balance problem. But what about aera, rlaan, and confed? Perhaps players could be recruited to fill those niches? Of course, they would have to be trustworthy players.


I still think that an iron man mode should be a server option though, even if we get the iron man version as cool as Ryder described, there would be a lot of people who would be turned away at the idea.
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Post by CoffeeBot »

Uh, guys. No offense, but have you PLAYED vegastrike recently? Do you know how HUGE it is, and how ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY the npcs are?

The only way that Ryder's idea would work is if the police/GMs were on a physical payroll (i.e. real world dollars) and the galaxy was limited to a handful of systems, like most other games. Then, you'd need a few hundred people playing to make things at least remotely interesting.

Otherwise, you've got yourselves the world's largest deathmatch map where not everyone is interested in pk.

If there's something I'm missing about how NPCs affect game balance, please enlighten me.
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Post by hurleybird »

CoffeeBot wrote:Uh, guys. No offense, but have you PLAYED vegastrike recently? Do you know how HUGE it is, and how ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY the npcs are?
So, don't use the current universe. Start out with 50 odd systems and expand as more people come in.
CoffeeBot wrote:If there's something I'm missing about how NPCs affect game balance, please enlighten me.
Ryder P. Moses wrote:I'd play Ironman. It'd need to be considerably harder to get yourself killed, though, for it to be viable. Right now, simple bad luck in the random spawning generation means certain death, and with the low-level ships it happens a lot.
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Post by Guest »

I assume that iron man is the permadeath feature.. Wonder if I am correct on that issue.
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Post by CoffeeBot »

hurleybird wrote:
CoffeeBot wrote:If there's something I'm missing about how NPCs affect game balance, please enlighten me.
Ryder P. Moses wrote:I'd play Ironman. It'd need to be considerably harder to get yourself killed, though, for it to be viable. Right now, simple bad luck in the random spawning generation means certain death, and with the low-level ships it happens a lot.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was thinking under the assumption that the current spawn issues would be fixed, and, like we said, potentially fatal combat is avoidable.
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Post by hurleybird »

Guest wrote:I assume that iron man is the permadeath feature..
correct
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Post by Ryder P. Moses »

Coffeebot: I'm talking about smaller player-dominated universes, where computer NPCs still make up background detail just for looks but do not dominate gameplay. Specific number of systems would be open for debate, and would ideally increase over time as more people joined and started moving out to the fringes and stuff, but the ideal number is probably around one system for every ten players. Or less- systems don't have to be the paltry nigh-empty things they are in VS now, they can have dozens of worlds and scores of sub-planetary celestial bodies and waypoints- the denser they are, the better, and the more players they can comfortably hold.

If the multiplayer universe is set up so that you will likely never meet another human being- which is pretty much the way you seem to be pushing for it to go- there's no point in playing it. It's singleplayer with lag. Most people won't play it. I won't. There's just no damn reason to have an order of power more systems than you will ever have players. Especially since, as of now, the VS 'universe' consists of two thousand copies of what are essentially the same five or ten systems repeated ad nauseam. Personally, I think a whole lot of work needs to be done on creating content to fill this massive place that y'all have created before taking that 2000-system universe anywhere becomes a good idea.



Hurleybird: Personally, I'm really not a fan of the aliens (or alien factions in general, really) and would rather see them marginalized as the NPC hordes on the fringes of space, while players are divided up into human factions. Alien faction or human faction, though, could work much the same. I'm thinking... if there's enough people to really sustain it, say a few hundred on at any given time, implement a set of player factions (either the three races or human groups like the Luddites and Highborn and such), who have access to all the good military hardware, some special ships, and an internal economy-generation system based on planets held (i.e., planets are money factories and distribute a small but steady flow of cash and equipment to the controlling faction). And, of course, those who join a faction can rely on their buddies in that faction to back 'em up if they ever get in a tight spot.

Thusly, all the different groups are jockeying for power, trying to dominate the most systems so as to get the best toys (and just because legitimized player-killing is an attraction in and of itself). This gives the online universe a nice civil strife background which joining players can either actively participate in or just try to live with and turn to their own best advantage as independent traders.
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Post by Tarran »

-=Coffee=-
guest missed it in my post.. said player made factions.. in the game I come from we call them clans..
I wasn't trying to suggest that players start off in a faction, or clan, or guild, or fightgroup, or squadron(sp).. but that they could later on, create them and at that time, my suggestions for team groups would be thus and thus and thus.. personally its doubtful that I would ever join such a group.. I'm pretty fond of the whole independant thing.. though, with the suggestions I made, you could just go with fightgroups.. they wouldn't have a permenant score in the game (like you do with the xisting factions in VS).. but you could as a group set yourself up so that other people recognized you.. (markings and so forth) and things that would make such a group work out for the players in them..

Edit:
by and by, I have no qalms or problems with a universe where you die and have to start from scratch.. its just incentive to play better
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Post by Crackpot »

Think this has been explained many different times but... are you guys having plans to have hundreds of players online in a single universe??

If so, just B careful that norder to survive in the internet world, having an a multiplayer world game to have 100s of players online highly recommends a coprerate company who has a lot of income to keep it alive and stuff.

But sure you can find the cheapest ways to host a 100 player universe, then that would be kwel..

But personally and respectfully, I think that this game needs a few more offline gameplay tweaks n crap before it goes online.
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something I was mulling over

Post by Tarran »

lets say, that in multiplayer, you are allowed to start off as a paticular race (like maybe one of the starfaring races, which I think the originals are like 4 or 5, don't remember offhand).. in one of the other threads, there have been different talks about counting systems for different races.. what if, the time units followed the number system for a given race.. (I know that datewise, there's no real flow in time, however in the reml of what different units do and how long it takes for such and such an affect to happen, or how long it takes for such and such a unit to run down, there are values, wether in time, or distance, or capacity)

now someone might put forth that in said situation, people will gravitate towards items (lets say weapons as the arguement) that tend to fire faster or turrets that move faster..

so say you get a turret from species X and you try to mount weapons on it from species Y .. so that it will turn very fast, and do mass amounts of damage, then you discover that species X turret is only compatible with species X weapons, and you require thier powersource to run the thing, which then runs out faster than or depleates sooner than some other species powersupply.

adding various racial numerical values to a game, could make patchwork ships both interesting and complicated... also timestamps at systems you visit, could be affected by the race that controls that system.. so the aera might use a different date reference than say the rlaan.. or being human and buying a ship from the aera would include having all these odd values for various tasks that are abnormal to the player..

it could add an interesting flavor to the game..
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Post by Ohforf »

Suggestion.
Capital Ships are a relative big and Powerful Weapon. IF VS goes online, a capital Ship is too Powerful for a single Player. What about manning a Capital Ship with about 5 or 10 Players?
One Player is just commanding, one has to fly the ship, some guys are manning the turrets. Ok, the turret guys are a bit unemployed if there is no battle, take it as an abstract idea.
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Post by ace123 »

That's an interesting idea.
It would be a bit hard to have more than one person control the ship itself...

But I'm thinking that as I add in Subunit support into multiplayer I can give people the option to play as someone else's turret.

Still it might be a bit boring to be a turret... And Maybe we can allow lots of normal fighters all to accept missions to attack the big fighter...

There is already rudimentary bounty mission support against other players.
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Post by bgaskey »

Yeah but for this to work more capships have to become buyable :wink: and more other ships too. just because more ships are cool 8) but I really want to have a legit tesla sometimes.
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Post by Fart_Plume »

one way to implement a multiplayer control of a ship would be a lanparty type of system where all the ships operator would have to be one a local network with one of the ships players systems acting as a ship server and then the ship's standard data relayed to the game server.
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Re: what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

Post by Captain{}Blood »

I would like to see a server side messaging system as well as in bar chat as well on planets with the capability.
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Re: what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

Post by WarSong »

here is what i'd love to see in a server. for a working, live, demonstration of a similar system check out Phantasy Star Online's private server.

Instanced system:
single system arena (bots vs player, PVP, CTF)
multi system strategic (capship battles, commanding bots as a wing leader or field marshal, ability to pilot during encounters and gunnery)
multiplayer exploration (co-op only, no friendly fire)
a fire-free (chat only) lobby system that spans the four quadrants of the sector (mimics the exploration mode).

When joining the server the user is given access to a map or dialog. player selects what quadrant/sector and system to join. this drops them into the fire-free area selected. they will end up on the concourse aboard a station or planet-side where they can create an instance using the station terminal. other players in the same lobby system can access the station terminal and join their instance unless passworded.
the lobby system mimics occupied space with launching, docking and navigation abilities to move from lobby (or system) to lobby. each system is its own chat area and convos in other lobbys (systems with in the quadrant) would be unseen. players can fly about, show off their ships, transfer personal cargo items and the like but no game play happens in the lobby. lobby system stations provide no services, even basic repairs would require creating or joining an instance.
the created instances will be flagged arena, strategic or exploration by the creator and users can join the instance until a mission has been selected.
system terminals display joinable games from all systems within that quadrant.

Arena: during creation of this instance a dialog requests mode and mission, which are displayed on station terminals in the lobby system so players know in advance what type and the map that instance occurs in. Joining teams and the like will be possible until the creator begins the match, unfilled team slots will be occupied by bots. the the weapons and load-outs will vary on the map used and will not effect personal cargo in any way. you can't lose credits in arena.

Strategic: during creation a scenario is selected, much like arena.. users can join and select teams until the match is begun. depending on scenario users may start at the tactical display of a capship or in a fighter ready to launch, and possibly in a turret ready for gunnery duty. this depends on what the team member opted for before the match starts. if a player vacates one of these positions another player may take over on the fly.

Exploration: the game starts all users on their last station in an npc-rich free flight mode. users can leave and join freely from stations and the entire sector is open for exploration. team mates can assist each other in missions but each member may do as they please. all money, items, and ships/equipment are saved to the users personal cargo inventory to be accessed only in exploration mode instances. leaving one exploration instance and joining another is possible and the newly joined member will begin that instance at their last station. certain exploration mode assignments might award temporary items specific to the task, these items are not retained if a user leaves exploration mode instances. this mode is strictly PVE and no friendly fire is allowed. FF on or by NPCs is still a danger. some assignments are abandoned if the user leaves the instance (patrols and the like) cargo missions are resumable from any instance and bounty missions are resumable but only if that instance is rejoined before the last person leaves and the server deletes the instance.

even tho the lobby system mimics the exploration sector, joining an instance to take an assignment or retrieve cargo, leaving and then rejoining that same instance from another another system in the lobby system will not move the character within that instance, they will begin at the same station they left the instance from.

this is just a detailed wish list of what a server would work like.
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Re: what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

Post by loki1950 »

Welcome WarSong very well thought out and presented :D and good ideas as well.Especially like the co-op model can you also see a story line as useful for that co-op mode or maybe goals as milestones for the teams, Have to have something to keep some kind of score :wink:

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Re: what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

Post by WarSong »

thanks for the warm welcome!
i have been a part of vega-strike and kept an eye on it since hellcatv(tigershark) first brought it to my attention back in #Wing-Commander. i even began scripting a campaign that was never completed. oddly enough i believe i still have that code someplace.

i've always liked storyline, and i crave freedom. the original privateer is still my fav game of all time. surpassing console based and pc games alike.

i know some people would enjoy gabbing and racing, which the lobby system is perfect for.
others want to be able to shoot each other down "straight out of the box"
and still others love to plan their moves and execute them to see the results.
i love the freedom of the original privateer (particularly the randomly generated missions).
i meet more and more people who are tired of the existing space based MMOs. Their greatest flaws seems to be the involuntary PVP (allowing users to abuse other players) and an RPG like battle system that feels like your fighting an Excel spreadsheet.

remember the days when your fully outfitted centurion barely survived an attack by a single retro with a ionic cannon? what caused that wasn't a bad armor rating or failing to grind to a certain level in the previous zone. it was bad piloting. how long would people play a story rich game worrying about being PVP'd to dust as their client loads a new system?

i'd also like to see a game with some more player immersion:
ability to offer paid assignments to player controlled characters
name your ships, it might be trivial and we're gonna see a lot of "black rhombus" but it means a lot to a pilot when he knows he named his ship and others see it too
a black market where you can make use of your questionable cargo and "illegally" modify your ship. (extra capacity, illegal guns, modified shields and generators meant for bigger ships)

PVE load-out and cargo shouldn't ever effect PVP.
PVP scores could unlock some interesting bonuses in PVE instances.
strategic mode should also be unaffected by PVE and possibly allow unlock-able content in PVE.

i think user created content should be a focus. a player created (and dev or at least mod approved) mission could tell a story as it unlocks more missions from the same series. SOS signals from NPC ships within the same system could also offer interesting and lucrative diversions.
scripting could be done using an editor something like a simplified derivative of s-expressions. this would leave mods and devs to just act as screeners of player submitted content leaving them more time to pursue abuses and hunt bugs.

my only issue with the VS program as it stands is the station-side interface. instead of the user going here and there by selecting transits i toyed with a 2d view like from Space Rogue (Apple IIe) or even a cool on-foot 3d mode but to keep it simple our characters whip out their PDAs and start ordering parts, cargo and repairs to be delivered to their ship, access the mission computers and the like.
special missions require meeting the client as would buying new ships require you go to the dealership and joining NPC controlled guilds (all would use the transit system).

i have many more "small" ideas that might be harder to implement and the last thing i want to do is hijack the thread.
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Re: what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

Post by loki1950 »

Our mission scripts are Python and xml mixed together which makes auto-generation kinda tricky :wink: You might be interested in PU a fork of the privateer mod they added some more ships and a few more story lines http://wcjunction.com/phpBB2/index.php there forum.
a black market where you can make use of your questionable cargo and "illegally" modify your ship. (extra capacity, illegal guns, modified shields and generators meant for bigger ships)
Check out the Shady Mechanic at the upgrade screen not on every base but the start planet Atlantis and the Serenity mining base have them so not not every shady upgrade is available in any one place you have to hunt for a competent mechanic :wink: for a particular device.

Enjoy the Choice :)
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Re: what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

Post by WarSong »

this is fresh in my mind so i'm posting it here

make a random number, 1-6 say (maybe more) each one being different types of missions:
1 escort
2 patrol
3 enforcement
4 bounty ("re-rolls" if being calculated for merchant guild)
6 delivery ("re-rolls" if being calculated for bounty hunter guild)

lets say the number rolled by the random number gen is 2 (patrol)
this links to some pre-made patrol scripts which is also chosen at random, lets say there's 15 of them and it picks number 6

6: "%1 requires patrol of %3 in system %2, %5 encounters likely. %1 pays %4 commensurate with hits."

%1 Company/Faction name randomly chosen from list of 26
%2 System mission occurs in
%3 Nav Point ("Jump to %S", "Station %O" or "Planet %P" could be added)
%4 Random number from 2560 to 5120 (+2560 if from a guild computer or guild database accessed thru PDA)
%5 Predetermined enemy faction (25% chance of no enemy at that nav and 25% of wrong type, altho the mission stipulates one does exist)

when the missions are calculated out and populated they reflect events already being loaded or to be loaded regardless of user accepting the mission or not.
this means NOT accessing the guild computers or mission computer would mean less encounters (easier for traders, more challenge for hunters)
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Re: what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

Post by legine »

Oki no time, but want to add some stuff.

Since we are a community project I would not whish to have a server Orientated MMO Imagine CCP is moving on military hardware for battles around 1000 players.
Ofc we can programm better then they do and save some money but you hear ressource problems also from other MMOs with interest sphere.
I think trying to go in a decentral aproach like Grid (look at the Seti Project) or something would be more worthwhile. Ofc thats technological harder bc we dont have experience in that...

For cheaters we could try to see if for 1 player 2 other player (randomly assigned) do some calculation or sanity tests.

In means of security there is only one way: Defense Programming. We have to get the Code streight and secure. There fore we need standards and audit teams... Well kinda this way. I think we can put that up with time.

On gameplay. I want to see that capital ships are team play. It should be a bit more micro management gameplay, I hope I can test the Idea in pi armada .. :)

And last thing is I would like pve content plus pvp. I mean Eve online is mere pvp or build stuff for pvp. I would like to see more then that. :-D
I think Blizzard had made good steps there with their pve servers. And the pvp flag. I will see.

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Re: what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

Post by lucent »

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I would like to see VegaStrike as an MMO.

I prefer the standard for co-operative MMO play set by eGenesis "A Tale In The Desert". It goes something like this:

- New players are grunts, you need to complete a series of tasks to attain citizenship.

- A small number of levels of citizenship exist for players to work towards attaining (over a long period of time).

- Players can specialize and bring law / feature requests through in-game petitions and task completion

The advantage to this model is the importance being placed on continually improving the game. Developers must be responsive to popular petitions from the gameworld for this to be successful.

I want the ability to co-operatively build large structures, and to have a sort of crafting system. Players or guilds responsible for mining materials to build / repair these structures could achieve notoriety without having to be weighed down by the PKer (Player Killer) aspect.
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