what would you like to see in the vegastrike multiplayer?

A forum for online playing, administration, bugs and feature requests
Post Reply
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

Unless you encode it either in base64, or base16 (hex), or binary if you wish. Anyway... not efficiently.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
jackS
Minister of Information
Minister of Information
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: The land of tenure (and diaper changes)

Post by jackS »

klauss wrote:Unless you encode it either in base64, or base16 (hex), or binary if you wish. Anyway... not efficiently.
no. it has nothing to do with the encoding of newline itself- it has to do with a particular bit sequence being used as the terminating character. This requires that no other equivalent bit sequence can be encountered in the linear search prior to discovery of this character. This works for text because no other text character is \n. This does not work in the presence of any non-ascii data. Therefore, the code must be restructured to accomodate binary data.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

Yes... and base64 is such restructuring. It encodes binary data as a series of alphanumeric characters. Actually, base64 per-se is not useful, since it uses = as sequence terminator. But, still, a similar encoding can be used with uses only 64 symbols, and strategically avoids the "sensible" symbols. That's how MIME works, and some encoding formats for HTTP POST requests when handling binary data.

However, such encoding requires consistently more bandwidth: the resulting string is 4/3 the size of the binary string.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
jackS
Minister of Information
Minister of Information
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: The land of tenure (and diaper changes)

Post by jackS »

klauss wrote:Yes... and base64 is such restructuring. It encodes binary data as a series of alphanumeric characters. Actually, base64 per-se is not useful, since it uses = as sequence terminator. But, still, a similar encoding can be used with uses only 64 symbols, and strategically avoids the "sensible" symbols. That's how MIME works, and some encoding formats for HTTP POST requests when handling binary data.
Profound apologies, I thought you were discussing re-encoding just the newline character. It must be too early in the morning for me :-/

You are of course correct that re-encoding the entire symbol set to disallow whatever control characters are needed is exactly how one goes about circumventing this problem (while keeping the same algorithm).

There are, of course, different approaches that circumvent the root problem entirely.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

jackS wrote:There are, of course, different approaches that circumvent the root problem entirely.
Hey... that's exactly my point in the abover posts.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
jackS
Minister of Information
Minister of Information
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: The land of tenure (and diaper changes)

Post by jackS »

klauss wrote:
jackS wrote:There are, of course, different approaches that circumvent the root problem entirely.
Hey... that's exactly my point in the abover posts.
Nothing so fun as violent agreement, non? ;-)
Duality
Daredevil Venturer
Daredevil Venturer
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:58 am
Location: West Coast of USA
Contact:

The so called "scalable mmorpg server".

Post by Duality »

I was browsing around the internet one way and I happen to run into an article claiming that you can have a ton of players connected to a single laptop.

http://www.devmaster.net/articles/mmo-scalable-server/

I'm not getting too happy about this article yet, because I see this article is dated July. And I don't know if it will exactly work for open ended mmo's like this one.
www2
Venturer
Venturer
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:51 am
Location: milkyway->the sol system->earth->Europe->The Nederland->Soud Holland->Leiden
Contact:

Re: The so called "scalable mmorpg server".

Post by www2 »

@Duality and all
I think dis direction we use for the mmo system
And meby can we use also Peer2Peer

edit: @Duality
dis article hef submit at 7 oct 2005 and not 10 July 2005
All Your Base Are Belong To Us
Duality
Daredevil Venturer
Daredevil Venturer
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:58 am
Location: West Coast of USA
Contact:

Post by Duality »

Oh your right.

I got confused with the date. So it's dated a couple of weeks instead of couple of months back.

But anyways, if we ever wanted to have the vegastrike multiplayer server to be writtin in erlang, I would wonder if it would be worth the time for anyone volunteering to learn erlang and then write the server.

I guess it's just my dream though.. Because still don't know if anyone would like that idea or not.
Last edited by Duality on Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
www2
Venturer
Venturer
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:51 am
Location: milkyway->the sol system->earth->Europe->The Nederland->Soud Holland->Leiden
Contact:

Post by www2 »

@Duality
I think more to we use RakNet than erlang...
The most coders here know C/C++/Python thab erlang...
And also is RakNet GPL
Edit: dis is a good article...
All Your Base Are Belong To Us
Duality
Daredevil Venturer
Daredevil Venturer
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:58 am
Location: West Coast of USA
Contact:

Post by Duality »

I've also heard of RakNettoo.

It's also one of the best networking libraries out there too..

But this boggles my mind but it used to be a commercial product. You can stil try thing thing and see if you still get the limited 31 client connections. If not then this may be the thing to go.
www2
Venturer
Venturer
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:51 am
Location: milkyway->the sol system->earth->Europe->The Nederland->Soud Holland->Leiden
Contact:

Post by www2 »

Duality wrote:I've also heard of RakNettoo.

It's also one of the best networking libraries out there too..

But this boggles my mind but it used to be a commercial product. You can stil try thing thing and see if you still get the limited 31 client connections. If not then this may be the thing to go.
GPL License of raknet
rakkarsoft.com wrote: GPL License
Freely distributable / open-source
Can be used with any other GPLed license.
Windows / Linux / Unix.
Forum support.
Unlimited Distribution.
Free.
All Your Base Are Belong To Us
www2
Venturer
Venturer
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:51 am
Location: milkyway->the sol system->earth->Europe->The Nederland->Soud Holland->Leiden
Contact:

Post by www2 »

Can som one tel my ther ar suport for clan's in the mmo version of
vegastrike...
if not can use as Feature Requests...
All Your Base Are Belong To Us
Tarran
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Goddess knows where
Contact:

shtuff

Post by Tarran »

Thoughts on different portions of the multiplayer thread.

-=disconnection/drop=-
If you drop carrier/get disconnected, your ship goes into automatic pilot.. you can purchase different levels of automatic pilot..You start with the standard automatic pilot software.. it takes you to the nearest planet .. as if going from point A to point B.. no real defence, no trying to dodge, just a straight run to the location.. .. you have lets say, 8 levels of automatic pilot software you can purchase (the last level being very expensive) Level 8 software could be something like maximum manuverability with maximum thrust, whatever countermessures you have onboard and antimissle turrets to get you to the nearest planet without a mark on the ship.. in my opinion, automatic pilot software should be wholey defence oriented.. no attacking other ships, even if they are aggressive.

-=Cloning/death in the VS universe=-
Steve jackson had an interesting way of doing the death and cloning thing.. you had to go to a city (or in the vs universe, a base) that had the paticular company that did the cloning, and update its memory for a given fee.
In VS, a player could start with one clone. .. at certian computer terminals, they could update this clones memory.. I can see certian factions not allowing this at thier computer terminals. also the more backwards or unexplored portions of the universe would not have access to this sort of updating. New clones would be fairly expensive.. say 20 or 30 million credits.. updates could be dependant on how much time has passed between the previous update and the current one. Now, say you updated like a month ago, and you go out, and you purchase yourself a fully outfitted Ox, came into some really large sum of money, and found yourself indebted to some faction. you then die. your clone is activated.. you would find yourself out of that money, still held with that debt (unless that faction was the one that did you in), and out one fully outfitted ox (for game play purposes, the ship would just be relocated to a new possion in a different system.. for anyone to find) [the ox thing is in a scenario where you leve your ox in a smaller ship and then die outside of it.. if there are other players that are a part of your team/crew, then the ship stays in the same possion, and its assumed they contact the clone to let them know where they are. unless the crew walks off with it]
This system allows for both continued gameplay after death, and the possibility to die permenantly..

-=capships/everyone owning the biggest ship possible=-
Somone mentioned that capships should only be avaliable to large factions/goverments, as if it were avaliable to any single player, everyone would gravitate to the largest ship possible. In the VS universe, 4 or 5 small, fast craft, can take out a capship. I think douglas adams said it best.. "Looks like a fish, Moves like a fish, steers like a cow"
Yes, they have owsome firepower.. yes they have awsome shields and armor.. they also maneuver like a rock. A single capship out in the uncharted by itself is an open invitation to a buffet of new and dented parts.

-=player factions=-
A thought on player made factions. Players could be allowed to have a paticular insignia, which they might paint on thier ships.. also as a side thing, it would be cool if as a player, I could paint my ship whatever colour I wanted, designs, ect..
also, frequencies could be avaliable to players.. so a faction may use a paticular band, where they game may support a range of like 1 to 20000000. so a given faction may use band 19345.. and they can pick up software (at a cost) that includes encryptions and so forth, to keep thier frequency as secure from prying eyes or people that come across that band range by accident.

-=Ship Creation=-
Someone mentioned the possibility of creating your own ship designs.. some thoughts on that.. depending on which race or VS faction you build your ship from (thier factory), depends on subtleties in the design.. so a custom ship built in a Rlaan factory is slightly modified to give it that buggish/organic look that you find on most thier ships. A custom ship built in the confed territories would be more blockish, ect.. and player made factions could have certian details in ships designed from them come up or pan out in the fabrication of custom ships.

-=players on ships=-
Personally, I'd like to be able to have multiple players on a single ship.. aside from the fun of being able to control a turret, it would also make sence in the passanger copacity.. A player may start a secure, get you to the planet you need to go to, passanger company. you set up in the computer for what system or planet you need to go to, and the price you are willing to pay for getting there. (though, there is no ingame garentee that you'll pick someone that is honost in thier ability to get there, versus taking your money and flushing you out the airlock) One could also offer the same but with thier ship.. so an ox might be willing to take a ship or a fighting group to a given location.

-=The discussion of newbies and dying and so forth=-
Have players start off in the common lanes. like deep confed or such.. not on some edge system that is the target of every faction that passes by.. Deep confed may require players to keep thier weapon systems offline, when you power up, monitors in the system let confed know, and suddenly you are the target of insystem ships. New players can then start off trading or such in the civilized systems.. it makes death by jerks less likely
Do you hear, that whisper, calling unto you
O'childe of the shore
As have your brethern before you
beckoning, to sail to those distant lands
Come
embrace me, your mistress
Upon the coldest sea
Guest

Re: shtuff

Post by Guest »

Tarran wrote:Thoughts on different portions of the multiplayer thread.

-=disconnection/drop=-
If you drop carrier/get disconnected, your ship goes into automatic pilot.. you can purchase different levels of automatic pilot..You start with the standard automatic pilot software.. it takes you to the nearest planet .. as ... snip
According to me, when a pilot gets disconnected in space, they sit there whatever if they disconnected on purpose or by accident. Their ships if they are flying starfighters they will stay there for 5 minutes. If their ships classes are larger than a fighter, say it should float a few distances to get it out of the way of the traffic.

-=Cloning/death in the VS universe=-
Steve jackson had an interesting way of doing the death and cloning thing.. you had to go to a city (or in the vs universe, a base) that had the paticular company that did the cloning, and update its memory for a given fee.
Well lets make the gameplay as simple as possible. I agree that players should be reconed after death however, it should not cost a hell of a lot of credits to recone a character. I mean it be instant to reclone a character.
-=capships/everyone owning the biggest ship possible=-
Somone mentioned that capships should only be avaliable to large factions/goverments, as if it were avaliable to any single player, everyone would gravitate to the largest ship possible. In the VS universe, 4 or 5 small, fast craft, can take out a capship.... snip
A capitalship or any giant ships should only be obtained if you are in a squad. Not by someone who happens to be rich. And I hope that in the future that I will not see everyone flying capital ships as being the end all be all ships in the long run.
-=player factions=-
A thought on player made factions. Players could be allowed to have a paticular insignia, which they might paint on thier ships.. also as a side thing, it would be cool if as a player, I could paint my ship whatever colour I wanted, designs, ect..
also, frequencies could be avaliable to players.. so a faction may use a paticular band, where they game may support a range of like 1 to 20000000. so a given faction may use band 19345.. and they can pick up software (at a cost) that includes encryptions and so forth, to keep thier frequency as secure from prying eyes or people that come across that band range by accident.
Actually, My idea of a vegastrike multiplayer upon player creation, you can choose what trace you want to be. Either aera, rlaan or human. You are not limited to your own faction ship but you can fly any type of ship as you like.. even be a traitor of your own faction.
-=Ship Creation=-
Someone mentioned the possibility of creating your own ship designs.. some thoughts on that.. depending on which race or VS faction you build your ship from (thier factory), depends on subtleties in the design.. so a custom ship built in a Rlaan factory is slightly modified to give it that buggish/organic look that you find on most thier ships. A custom ship built in the confed territories would be more blockish, ect.. and player made factions could have certian details in ships designed from them come up or pan out in the fabrication of custom ships.
I guess this is a bit too early to do that. I would just stick with the slot systems we have now with the defauly models.

-=The discussion of newbies and dying and so forth=-
Have players start off in the common lanes. like deep confed or such.. not on some edge system that is the target of every faction that passes by.. Deep confed may require players to keep thier weapon systems offline, when you power up, monitors in the system let confed know, and suddenly you are the target of insystem ships. New players can then start off trading or such in the civilized systems.. it makes death by jerks less likely
Gameplay wise, there should be some areas where experienced and veteran pilots gets punished severly for killing newbies. But if newbies wander out far from their home place, then theres no penalty for killing them. There should be three types of zones. One safe zone for rlaan pilots only, another safe zone for an aera only recruits and the last one for confed only recruits. The severe penalty should wear off when you progress your character.

Now here comes my idea when it comes to ship balance:
Light fighters should go faster then heavy fighters and advanced fighters but should not have much firepower or protection ratings.
Tarran
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Goddess knows where
Contact:

Re: shtuff

Post by Tarran »

Well lets make the gameplay as simple as possible. I agree that players should be reconed after death however, it should not cost a hell of a lot of credits to recone a character. I mean it be instant to reclone a character.
I had meant that first clone was free, and after that point you needed to purchase yours.
A capitalship or any giant ships should only be obtained if you are in a squad. Not by someone who happens to be rich. And I hope that in the future that I will not see everyone flying capital ships as being the end all be all ships in the long run.
Even being super rich, doesn't nessisarily mean that people will automatically gravitate towards the largest ship they can get thier hands on. Each size ship has its ups and downs. Driving around the universe in a cap ship just makes you a nice juicey target..

Actually, My idea of a vegastrike multiplayer upon player creation, you can choose what trace you want to be. Either aera, rlaan or human. You are not limited to your own faction ship but you can fly any type of ship as you like.. even be a traitor of your own faction.
When I think of player factions, I think of them created later in the game, not something someone starts off with.
Do you hear, that whisper, calling unto you
O'childe of the shore
As have your brethern before you
beckoning, to sail to those distant lands
Come
embrace me, your mistress
Upon the coldest sea
Guest

Post by Guest »

Oh you are right.

Lets make death mean something where it should take a long time to get back to normal instead of the same old usual space quake junkie style of combat where you die, requip and comback into space in an instant. I favor the bigger risks of PvP.

But how about for newbies who die a lot because of their stupid mistakes?
CoffeeBot
Intrepid Venturer
Intrepid Venturer
Posts: 676
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:25 am
Location: On the counter by the toaster
Contact:

Post by CoffeeBot »

Guest wrote:Oh you are right.

Lets make death mean something where it should take a long time to get back to normal instead of the same old usual space quake junkie style of combat where you die, requip and comback into space in an instant. I favor the bigger risks of PvP.

But how about for newbies who die a lot because of their stupid mistakes?
Let's make death mean something where it's final. One life, that's it.

Clones, imo, are way too cliche to even be considered. Besides, with a better implementation of the escape pod (i.e. player-controlled, with a better chance of survival) there will be less death -- and less "fight to the death" combat with a few changes I hope get implemented.

And don't knock it until you've tried it. There's a lot of room for living in a game where death is final, so long as death isn't too easily reached.

@Tarran: The term "factions" refers to any in-game association. It's one that's been used in these style of games for a long time, and in the case of VS, it's not the best one. When you start the game, you're not a member of a faction (and can never join one, either, at this point), but you have a relational standing with every faction. Player-created factions will come later, too.
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Indeed, there's nothing as involving and immersive as a good hard-core game. When death is final one tends to take the game really seriously. You don't just "try" this or that weapon or strategy; you read specs carefully, ask other players about their good or bad experiences, make informed choices.

In a hard-core Vegastrike multiplayer, haulers would network and plan convoy trips, for mutual protection. Hunters would also network into flight groups with specialized roles among them, and would advertise their services to other players, and would study a mission proposal carefully before even discussing price.
hurleybird
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Earth, Sol system.
Contact:

Post by hurleybird »

Cool. Why not make it configurable though?
CoffeeBot
Intrepid Venturer
Intrepid Venturer
Posts: 676
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:25 am
Location: On the counter by the toaster
Contact:

Post by CoffeeBot »

hurleybird wrote:Cool. Why not make it configurable though?
Make what configurable? If you mean a "death toggle", what's the point? Single-player has save-games, so if you die, just load up your last save. Multiplayer, though -- it's all or nothing.

@chuck: You're right about networking. At the very least, this is where hiring wingmen would be necessary. This is also where the ability to join a guild/faction/whatever would come in handy -- you don't necessarily have to pay for the escorts or companions.
hurleybird
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Earth, Sol system.
Contact:

Post by hurleybird »

I meant configurable as a server option, not as a player option. Thus some servers would be respawn server while others would be iron man.
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Or, rather than a server option, here's another idea I've mentioned before: Arcades in-game. You can die and restart, play deatmatch against other players, or pay 50 creds per hour for a realistic simulation to practise before a trip or mission. As long as it's in the context of playing a game within the game, so it doesn't rob the main game of its depth and continuity.

I think most players would spend most of the time playing arcades or practising on the simulators, and that is perfect. In fact, it allows you to hone your fighting skills without risking death all the time. But you'd have to do real missions to make money to support your arcade addiction, of course, not to speak of upgrading your ship :)
hurleybird
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Earth, Sol system.
Contact:

Post by hurleybird »

Chuck and Coffee, unfortunantly, most people don't think like you guys :wink:

The majority of gamers will not want to play iron man, and even then, an ironman mmog would need some really awesome (starcraft-like) game balance to work. As a server option, sure it's fine. As the only game mode though... well... it just wouldn't work.
Ryder P. Moses
Daredevil Venturer
Daredevil Venturer
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:59 am

Post by Ryder P. Moses »

I'd play Ironman. It'd need to be considerably harder to get yourself killed, though, for it to be viable. Right now, simple bad luck in the random spawning generation means certain death, and with the low-level ships it happens a lot.


What I'm thinking is, eliminate the enemybots entirely except for on the very fringes of space, make most occupied areas all-player. Allow PVPing, but install a police force of server GMs and GM-controlled bots who have all the good weapons (like capships) and who will hunt you down and rend you if you shoot down another player unless you are very, very sneaky about it (as in nobody but maybe the corpse sees who did it, so it doesn't get auto-reported), or have a whole hell of a lot of allies backing you up- enough that you can survive a fight with the most powerful army in the game.

Thus, petty piracy and l33t kiddie PKing are rendered unviable as the low-level scum and newbie-hunters are exterminated, but there's a framework to allow larger-scale guild warfare and such. And it feels real and unforced- it's basically like real life, where only the quick and the rich can afford to get away with committing serious crimes.
Post Reply