Difference between Remake and the current Gemini Gold?

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Difference between Remake and the current Gemini Gold?

Postby M@ni@c » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:32 pm

Gemini Gold's lead developer seemed touchy when I mentioned I don't like the GG interface, so I thought I'd ask here. Though I realize I probably won't get a fully neutral answer here either, given the apparent animosity between Remake and GG people. :wink:

Anyway, given that:
1) I hate the Gemini Gold interface
2) I don't care much about better graphics
3) I don't care much about extra fan content
what are besides those points the differences between GG and Remake?
Which one has least bugs, is best balanced, has the toughest AI? Can GG use wingmen (they disappear in Remake after loading a savefile)?
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Postby z30 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:34 am

There is only one way of really finding out - download the last stable patch Dilloh & his merry band came up with and see if you like it :)

All the other extra features & goodies come secondary.
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Postby Dilloh » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:05 am

I hate the Gemini Gold interface
...which we don't have, but GG
I don't care much about better graphics
...which we don't have, but GG
I don't care much about extra fan content
...which we have, but GG not
what are besides those points the differences between GG and Remake?
Overall, you mentioned them above. PR is a bit more of freedom. You can fly any ship you'll ever encounter in space, sooner or later. We have a turret AI (you don't have to sit in your turret and fire it manually), we have the dev AWACS campaign, and we have a quite active modding scene - adding even more WC ships to choose from, as well as weapons, and more storylines. Without sacrificing any content original Privateer had. Plus, PR is more balanced then GG - I've read many comments about the missions being hard to impossible in GG.
Which one has least bugs
I'd say GG has the more advanced SVN, and fewer bugs, but both games are playable w/o trouble, bugs are of minor appearance in PR.
is best balanced
PR. Definetively.
has the toughest AI?
The AI is the same. GG is said to be much harder, though.
Can GG use wingmen (they disappear in Remake after loading a savefile)?
GG only has the militia wingmen in the last Palan mission. Remake has them also at other points, even to hire them at mission computers. Ships usually disappear when you load a game - that's the engine's "cleanup" function so that we don't have an overcrowded universe. Despite of that, wingmen are only supposed to fly under your command for one single mission.

Despite of you're not caring about extra fan content, I'd also suggest to download PU1.1b6-DSE from my signature below. It's for the Remake, runs stable, adds a lot and doesn't take away anything.
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Postby z30 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:30 am

Incidentally - download link here:

http://pu.wcjunction.com/downloads.html

The new basemod will be available from this page as well when it comes out.
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Postby M@ni@c » Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:15 pm

Dilloh wrote:We have a turret AI (you don't have to sit in your turret and fire it manually), we have the dev AWACS campaign, and we have a quite active modding scene - adding even more WC ships to choose from, as well as weapons, and more storylines.


I liked the AWACS campaign, and if GG doesn't have a turret AI that speaks heavily in favour of Remake, but I'm a bit worried new ships and weapons might unbalance the game. Then again, I've only ever used lasers and tachyon bolts (and IIRC perhaps fusion guns), and you can play the entire campaign in your Centurion, so I can always try out if the new stuff offers some more variety in choices. :)

To threadjack my own thread btw... I've recently tried out a Galaxy. It has two turrets - I placed laser turrets on both of them - but only one of the turrets works. Am I doing something wrong, or is this a known problem?

Can GG use wingmen (they disappear in Remake after loading a savefile)?
GG only has the militia wingmen in the last Palan mission. Remake has them also at other points, even to hire them at mission computers. Ships usually disappear when you load a game - that's the engine's "cleanup" function so that we don't have an overcrowded universe. Despite of that, wingmen are only supposed to fly under your command for one single mission.[/quote]

Ah didn't know that. Is it intended then wingmen are only useful for Clean Sweep missions? (Using them for any other mission would make you lose money.)

Despite of you're not caring about extra fan content, I'd also suggest to download PU1.1b6-DSE from my signature below. It's for the Remake, runs stable, adds a lot and doesn't take away anything.


Thanks. I've downloaded it. :)
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Postby Dilloh » Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:32 am

I'm a bit worried new ships and weapons might unbalance the game.
Yeah, those things can happen, that's why z30 will revise the Galaxy Gunship. The mod began with adding ships, but we always collect experiences to rebalance them. This relies heavily on feedback - that's where guys like you come in :wink:
Then again, I've only ever used lasers and tachyon bolts (and IIRC perhaps fusion guns), and you can play the entire campaign in your Centurion, so I can always try out if the new stuff offers some more variety in choices.
Don't worry: Lasers, Tachs and Fusions are still the Nr. 1 guns in the game. As I said: We're trying to add, not to replace. So if we decided to create a new gun with the damage of ten plasma guns, we'd certainly make it use 10x the energy of a plasma, and give it a 10x plasma fire delay, see?
To threadjack my own thread btw... I've recently tried out a Galaxy. It has two turrets - I placed laser turrets on both of them - but only one of the turrets works. Am I doing something wrong, or is this a known problem?
You either were flying through a "blind" angel of your second turret, or you bought the second turret and therefor "overwrited" the first one - scratching it. Note that a list will pop up whenever you buy guns, warheads or turrets. You need to click carefully at an empty entry.

You can also switch to an external camera (F6 I think?) and check out if your ship has two turrets mounted.
Is it intended then wingmen are only useful for Clean Sweep missions? (Using them for any other mission would make you lose money.)
Use wingmen for what you like, they will also follow you through jump points. You only pay them once. If you don't have the money, they might attack you. They will follow you until they are destroyed or until you save/load. The AI is a bit dumb however. Multiple wingmen tend to attack each other, or collide with you. Just try it out. Personally, I hire wingmen for the really hard missions like Palan, or if I want to clear my relations... I shoot them then :twisted:
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Re: Difference between Remake and the current Gemini Gold?

Postby Turbo » Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:05 am

M@ni@c wrote:Gemini Gold's lead developer seemed touchy when I mentioned I don't like the GG interface
...
given the apparent animosity between Remake and GG people.

The GG project is designed to replicate the original. It is a very simple concept that is apparently (1) hard to perfect and (2) hard for people to understand. Any touchiness or hostility that might exist in either forum arises from these two issues.

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Postby M@ni@c » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:08 am

Dilloh wrote:Don't worry: Lasers, Tachs and Fusions are still the Nr. 1 guns in the game.


Actually I don't like the fact that of all the weapons present in the game there are only three good ones. I'm a mod designer myself (for Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri and Civilization IV), and one of my principles is that every option available in the game should add a meaningful choice. One good choice = no choice. So if I may give some unasked advise :lol: if I were modding WC:Privateer, I'd first try to make all the weapons already present in the game worth using under at least some situations, before adding any new ones. I think this is an example where trying to stick to the original doesn't create a good game. :wink:

You either were flying through a "blind" angel of your second turret, or you bought the second turret and therefor "overwrited" the first one - scratching it. Note that a list will pop up whenever you buy guns, warheads or turrets. You need to click carefully at an empty entry.


I don't believe that's the case, but I'll take some screenshots to make sure.
If you have multiple turrets, how is Ctrl-F1 supposed to work btw? First Ctrl-F1: switch to first turret; second Ctrl-F1: switch to second turret, third Ctrl-F1: switch back to cockpit?

Use wingmen for what you like, they will also follow you through jump points. You only pay them once. If you don't have the money, they might attack you. They will follow you until they are destroyed or until you save/load. The AI is a bit dumb however. Multiple wingmen tend to attack each other, or collide with you. Just try it out.


I've tried out wingmen in the past, and found them and escorts the most frustrating feature of the game. :( I made a thread about it some months ago.

I've downloaded installed PRPU btw. I like it. :) Is there a changelog somewhere though? I've run in two situations where I didn't understand at first what the hell was going on. "AAAAH, my Centurion suddenly only has 13 instead of 16 equipment slots. My save file must have gotten corrupted!" or "I turn around, press hard on Afterburner and my speed decreases to zero? WTF!?!" :wink:

Had some sort of error while extracting the mod btw. It says the file mentioned in the screenshot is damaged.

Image

Turbo wrote:The GG project is designed to replicate the original.


Not true. :wink: GG wants to improve graphics for instance. So the choice what stuff to improve and for what stuff to replicate the original sometimes seems arbitrary to me.
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Postby Dilloh » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:47 pm

every option available in the game should add a meaningful choice.
Sure. Talking about Civ, you have units like "Attack: 1 / Defend: 2 / Move: 2". In PR you can customize everything - the more choice you have, the more often you'll have guns which are similar. That's why I made the Fireblade and plan to make more milspec ships: To keep the balance. Those ships shall carry arms or shields which other ships don't have, and are not for sale as upgrade pieces.
if I were modding WC:Privateer, I'd first try to make all the weapons already present in the game worth using under at least some situations, before adding any new ones. I think this is an example where trying to stick to the original doesn't create a good game.
Agreed, but that doesn't justify to take equipment out of the game. We have about a dozen of guns, most of them are crap. But that doesn't give me a hurt. There ARE guys prefering neutron guns. And I'm planning to lock all guns within campaigns, which means you can only start of with light guns. Then you'll fly to X, meet Y and fulfil mission Z to enable medium guns for sale. See? Like technology in Civ-Games.
I don't believe that's the case, but I'll take some screenshots to make sure.
Cannot think of anything else, but you could also post your savegame with your serialized_xml folder here.
If you have multiple turrets, how is Ctrl-F1 supposed to work btw? First Ctrl-F1: switch to first turret; second Ctrl-F1: switch to second turret, third Ctrl-F1: switch back to cockpit?
Don't know how it works on an US-Keyboard but yes, you'll cycle through your turrets and wingmen completely, and return to your cockpit afterwards.
I've tried out wingmen in the past, and found them and escorts the most frustrating feature of the game.
z30 is working on a new AI. Wingmen might behave better in the future :wink:
I've downloaded installed PRPU btw. I like it.
Thx! :D
Is there a changelog somewhere though?
I made one for my changes, see changelog.txt within the archive.
AAAAH, my Centurion suddenly only has 13 instead of 16 equipment slots.
Not sure, I think z30 rebalanced it to make the other ships a better challenge.
I turn around, press hard on Afterburner and my speed decreases to zero?
That's inertia, physically correct. In space or in the water, where you have no or little gravity, inertia is the force keeping your current direction and speed, so you'll need a force pushing you into the other direction. It is also possible that z30 did some mass or MOI changes to make a more realistic movement.
Had some sort of error while extracting the mod btw. It says the file mentioned in the screenshot is damaged.
Hmm, I'm not exactly speaking dutch. The second error means "unexpected end of archive", right? Among with the CRC error, I think you had trouble while downloading the archive. I have the original file on my machine and it runs smooth. Check the filesize, should be 20022kb. If you don't have any trouble with it, you can use it.
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Postby M@ni@c » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:53 am

Dilloh wrote:Sure. Talking about Civ, you have units like "Attack: 1 / Defend: 2 / Move: 2". In PR you can customize everything - the more choice you have, the more often you'll have guns which are similar.
...
Agreed, but that doesn't justify to take equipment out of the game. We have about a dozen of guns, most of them are crap. But that doesn't give me a hurt.


I'm only an occasional tourist in the Privateer universe, so coudn't give any good stats right now, but I think it should be possible to make a dozen guns that still remain all useful even when they're all available.
Things affecting weapons are:
1) price
2) only available in certain bases
3) unlocked as the campaign progresses
4) can only be put on certain ships
5) damage
6) range
7) energy usage
8) refire delay
9) exit velocity

Price, base availability (eg only purchasable in Perry) and stuff being unlocked as the campaign progresses only work as a sufficient way to distinguish weapons in the early stages of the game. That still leaves six additional other stats to play with though. So eg it could be possible to make a weapon that excels in each of these stats, plus some hybrid combinations.

Cannot think of anything else, but you could also post your savegame with your serialized_xml folder here.


I've checked more thoroughly and I have two turrets after all. I got confused because Ctrl-F1 works like: Cockpit->turret1->Cockpit->turret2->Cockpit... which first gave me the impression there was only one turret.

That's inertia, physically correct. In space or in the water, where you have no or little gravity, inertia is the force keeping your current direction and speed, so you'll need a force pushing you into the other direction.


Yup I know - I just was confused at first. But I like it. It changes some tactics you have to use. It makes a "shelton slide" easier. Though I get the impression it makes it harder to shake off an enemy behind you. :scared:

Hmm, I'm not exactly speaking dutch. The second error means "unexpected end of archive", right? Among with the CRC error, I think you had trouble while downloading the archive. I have the original file on my machine and it runs smooth. Check the filesize, should be 20022kb. If you don't have any trouble with it, you can use it.


Woops yeah, I somehow didn't download it all. Thanks.
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Postby Dilloh » Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:05 am

Okay, thanks for those suggestions for the weapons. Will think about it when it comes to revising weapons 8)
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Postby Turbo » Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:24 am

M@ni@c wrote:
Turbo wrote:The GG project is designed to replicate the original.

Not true. :wink: GG wants to improve graphics for instance. So the choice what stuff to improve and for what stuff to replicate the original sometimes seems arbitrary to me.

Yes, the graphics are improved starting with 1.02. In fact, I made the new repair droids and a few other items. But the "nice to have" features that weren't in the original game, even ones that were erroneously put in the manual like turret AI, won't be in GG. That's why there are two projects -- one for the purists and one for those who to play "outside the box." Heck, the original game did poorly in reviews because some of the missions were difficult, and GG replicates that. :wink: My hope is that they remain compatible so that improvements to one can, where applicable, aid the other.

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Postby z30 » Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:20 pm

Dilloh wrote:Okay, thanks for those suggestions for the weapons. Will think about it when it comes to revising weapons 8)


These things probably fall into that category :

* missile turn rates enhanced, they actually hit things now. Speed & ranges aligned with WC stats (except for proton torps - I wanted these to be faster)

* toned down the energy requirements of Neutron guns

We definitely have to consider tweaking other weapons after the beta test of he new basemod
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