Any music requests?

For collaboration between the different artists creating music and sound for vegastrike.
zaydana
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Post by zaydana »

hmm, interesting ideas. you think you could put links up to the themes you were talkin bout in cvs?

anyhow, heres my ideas. Bear in mind they are _only_ ideas, nothing like it would end up being. Also, this is all 4/4 time signature, whereas I really would like to experiment with different time signatures for different species...


http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/music ... Moment.mp3 - this one is what i was thinking is the terran type of style. Although, it might fit with your idea of rlaan.
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/music ... achina.mp3 - this is my idea of aeran music. Its not exactly what i described it as above, and i didn't get the time signature thing right, but hey. Piano, strings, and some quite weird harmonies.
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/music ... rapped.mp3 - My idea of rlaan music. Synthy, kinda epic, not so industrial :P Of course, this wouldn't fit straight into the game, as its the wrong time signature and its not really flight music, more soundtrack music.

From your ideas, i think machina might work as rlaan music, maybe trapped could be aeran music, and moment could stay as terran.

Also, http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/music ... ission.mp3 is the version of mission that you mucked around a bit with. I think it would work with whatever race "moment" fits with - they are the same sort of track. So at the moment, that is terran. I think this fits, due to the quite "mechanical" sound which I associate with terrans.
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/music ... nition.mp3 is another one of my previous made-for-vegastrike ideas. I think this one would work with whoever uses the "trapped" idea. So, with your ideas (which i like), it would be aeran music.

anyhow, theres some musical ideas to chew on. Tell me what you think - i'm very keen to hear what people have to say. Mostly because I can write music, but i'm not that good at telling what theme certain racse wil have :P
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strings !

Post by loki1950 »

would not the area with their six limbs have developed more around purcussion (foot stompping good music) in other words music usually develops from the body first just an option anyway,complex rythyms like balanise and hindu classical.

Enjoy the Choice :)
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Post by klauss »

Ok.

Zay: listening to Moment. That's indeed a variation of Mission. That must go with mission, in the same playlist. My idea for rlaan was somewhat more percussive, yet melodic (melodic percussion). The CVS track I mentioned for rlaan is industrialmixed.ogg. Percussion in rlaan tracks should never take the pop form... too recognizable as human.

I like Machina for terran, actually. Machina has quite classical harmony (to my ear), except a few disonant places which, given the strongly tonal nature of the rest, I would consider errors (hey... I like it anyway), and recognizably "pop"-style percussion. Aliens (rlaan and aeran) should stay away from archetypes. That's the problem with all the tracks you linked: they're typical (not an objection - just an observation). To achieve the effect you were looking for, I guess, you should take the dissonant passages, and generalize them - not copy, just generalize that way of combining sounds. To make the dissonances less stringent, play with velocities: make fundamental sounds in classic harmony stronger, less important sounds softer. That is, weird harmony, with a classic harmony structure underneath - that will make it sound more pleasant to human ears, I guess. Perhaps I could try writing some example of it... if I get the time. Or... if you send me a file, like the last time, I could make my point doing it.

I think we can start with terran already.
I would like to have some tracks for them. Since we'll use various styles, there's no need to concern ourselves much with a specific style. Except, any track composed of a given style should be representative of this style. If I'm doing classical, something like Gurre Lieder is not the best idea... more like Saint-Säens, Tchaikovsky or Strauss. For pop... I don't know pop... but somethin equally archetyped. Nothing too original - it must be recognizable as human. Of course, that doesn't exclude musical originality... nice themes... nice harmony. Just don't go overboard with originality. I'll try to select some classical tracks and some terran tracks from the current ingame tracks, for guidance.
Ken: I'd like your opinion on this whole matter.
For classical, I was thinking about "La Muerte del Ã
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Post by kensuguro »

Let me get this straight, the styles so far goes:

terran: anything human, the more the marrier, anything from atmospheric to battle. Has to be recognizable as human. Easy industrial/atmospheric for peace, movie style rising action (any action movie), electro/distortion sound battle (maybe like matrix?)

Aera: Orderly, classical, kind of stuck-up aristrocratic music? Basically I'm thinking of sticking with some of the more symphic style that's inherent in the current set. Slow orchestral with weak melody for peace, high string/sort of horror type rising tension, rumbling battle themes

Rlaan: electronic, industrial, but not in a normal pop-sense. Authentic sounding, notably un-human. I'd say, contemporary electronica would be good. Crazy enough, but keep within listenable limits. I don't really have a plan with Rlaan, I'll just be crazy and see what happens.

And each of these would get a peace, rising action, and a battle variation right? From there, we can also add friendly, neutral, and hostile sets. I'm not sure of music for bases, I doubt they're a high priority right now since you don't spend too much time in bases. (but we will do them later)

I'll work on some ideas, and then we'll think about the multi-track scheme and also work on some more details as to which tracks have more priority. I think it's good to prioritize the tracks so we don't start off with a bunch of optional tracks.
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Post by klauss »

The orderly nature is inverted:

Aera: Not necessarily orderly
Rlaan: Very orderly. Slow-evolving, repetitive.

Everything else about aera may be good. I really like aerapeace, so if you plan on following roughly that direction is ok by me... only a little more alien... less classic harmony... and for hostile peace, unrecognizable ambience.

But, I would concentrate on terran first... learn with it, and then do the others right from start.

Each one would get:

peace: away, near sig (away is open space, possibly ambience, near sig is near a base or something - not at a base - should give a sense of being less "alone in the dark").
threat: rising tension, basically
battle
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Post by kensuguro »

here's something to start with.. Terran peace and rising tension
http://www.iface.ne.jp/~ken/terran_peace.mp3
http://www.iface.ne.jp/~ken/terran_rise.mp3

The rising tension kinda got a little too hostile sounding.. Maybe it's fit for battle.. not sure. Making the newer set is going to take much longer than the older one because I'm doing mixing and using the production workflow that I use for commercial projects.. (old tracks came straight from a Triton) So, it's going to be while 'till we're teeming with music..

Also, a thing about looping.. about the anisometric (is that the word?) looping.. I'm having a hard time incorporating it into the song.. it'll work if the song was made of only 1 big loop, but if it has 2 different loops (like terran_peace) then I'd make the whole song a loop unit, and then make variations.. like the pads are on for 3 times around, drums on just 1st and empty for second.. (so pad is a 3 loop unit, and the drums are 2 loop unit) Something like that right? I'm just guessing this'll quickly blow up the music file size since the loops are going to be several times a normal song length * the number tracks.

Do you think it may be better to do peace tracks just with 1 looping phrase, and work on doing a good anisometric loop out of it instead of making several phrases?

Brrr, this is unclear.. what I mean is, if it's one phrase, then the loop file would include:

Pads(4 loops)
A, A variation, A, A

Drums(3 loops)
nothing, A, Avariation

But if I were to use mor than one phrase, then it becomes:
Pads (4 loops) (parenthesis show one loop unit)
(A, B), (A variation, B variation), (A, B), (A, B)

Drums(3 loops)
(nothing, nothing), (A, B), (A variaion, B variation)

So, it all of a sudden becomes quite lengthy. What do you think?
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Post by Ryder P. Moses »

Aren't the Rlaan the ones whose description makes a point of emphasizing how horrible their taste in music is, though? Might be kinda amusing to stick in among all the sweeping pseudo-orchestral tracks and other standard game-ambience stuff some horrific screeching abuse of music. Possibly as a Rlaan planetside/station dock track, that doesn't come up very often.
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Post by jackS »

Rlaan music tends to be percieved as cacaphonic due to excessive layering - the Rlaan are vastly superior to humans at mental data parallel processing tasks. However, each of the numerous components tends to be itself methodical, and either very simple, very repetitive, or both. Penchants exist for tonal percussion elements, especially bell-like ones.

The key emotion to try to capture for an Aera mood is one of unease. A profound unease, even in the emptiness of space, that therefore borders on paranoia.

We "know what humans are like" - the more interesting task will be composing for those groups of human origin that have stretched the term "human".
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Post by hurleybird »

Heh, that sounds fun to compose, and would work very well with the layering system :D

Whether or not it would work in practice...

Edit: I'll see what If I can come up with something around Jacks' guidelines, if only for experiments sake. I'm staying with my family for thanksgiving, so I probably wont be able to do anything until tuesday though.
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Post by jackS »

There'd be no need to push forward into a full fledged din, but building up towards a very busy wall of sound as one moved into the core systems of the Rlaan territory would be... an interesting experience. How well it would work in practice - don't know.
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Post by hurleybird »

Rlaan music would most likely have a very unique time signature, no?
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Post by kensuguro »

I was thinking more like none. Instead, you can use samples or loops of atonal material to establish a sense of time, and work with that a little while, and then maybe drift to a different loop and establish a new timescale with that. Standard music concrete.

Just one idea though. Any other ideas?
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Post by zaydana »

@ the rlaan idea some of you were throwing around:

the composer in me hears this big loud warning siren when you mention "wall of music" - the music can't be more than background in a game or it takes over and people get, well, bored of it.

Thats why the "music" in homeworld works so well. And there are a few other games i've played where music is more musical, but its still only atmospheric. Of course, one of the ways we can accomplish this is just having the music volume defaulted to quite soft. BUT, we need to compose in such a way that music isn't too full, and the music can be pushed out of somebodies mind if they are getting bored with it. When games don't do that, I personally need to turn the music off, as the music is only supposed to set the atmosphere, not be the entire experience. If you need something to get an idea of, think of movie music. Its got ocassional quite loud spouts, but most of the time it is very quick/empty, even silent.

So, rlaan "wall of sound" just can't work. Its a game, we don't need to do everything the same as the fictional culture. If at all possible, it might be worth changing what their "tastes of music" are to make them fit more in with a game than a movie/music festival...
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Post by zaydana »

ken - those terran pieces you put up I think are right on the mark. Although, I think the "rising" piece is a lot more like a battle piece - unobtrusive, but still battleish.

The peace piece, well i think the stringy/synthy/ instruments you are using could use a bit of tweaking. Apart from that, my dislike of the drums aside, its pretty damn good.
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Post by kensuguro »

k, the the rising one might work better as a battle piece. or maybe even a panic piece because it's so dissonant.

The synth sound, yeah, I was wondering whether it's too synth-ish to be terran. I could replace it with something more strings-ish and save the synth textures for rlaan. I do agree it has a kind of over chorused cheesy feel to it as it is.

opinions klauss?

edit:
okay, this thread is exploding, as expected.. who was it that offered to create a music forum? I think it may become handy really soon. Info about that would be nice.
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Post by klauss »

kensuguro wrote:...snip...So, it all of a sudden becomes quite lengthy. What do you think?
Well... don't worry then. Have separate pieces with A and A' (variation), or (A,B) and (A',B'), (or even A, B, A', B'), and all I have to do is code the sequencer (sequence constraints)... not a big deal. It's a deal, but not a big one.

Like, the loop is: 1:A,2:B,3:A',4:B',go back to 1.

Actually, at each stage, I would say:

1: A, next: 2
2: B, next: 3
3: A', next: 4
4: B', next: 1, bail: *

Now, well... it's a little early to get you confused with all this, bail would be specifying points where the soundserver can switch songs.

The exact mechanism is not yet defined, so just write it down in your own way, and I'll do the rest (like make that possible).

Another possibility, is randomization:

1: A, next: 2, 4
2: B, next: 3, 4, 2, 1
3: A', next: 4, 1
4: B', next: 1

Where the actual next is randomly selected from the list. By specifying a number multiple times (ie. 1, 1, 1, 2, 3), you can give weights to certain selections. That is one of the best reasons to make A, B, A' and B' separate tracks: to allow random sequencing. Of course, if the tracks permit it.
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Post by klauss »

1) Edited the previous post.

2) Ken & Zay:

About the peace piece... almost perfect. First, the drum, although not that great, does fall within the "Archetypical" classification I was proposing for terran. In fact, if it were not for the drums, it wouldn't sound as terran. It has the so overused "pum-pum-chin" pattern. The rest is very nice. Well, I must say, though, that I'm listening with a loussy internal speaker (I'm at work), and may be missing lots of details. The only caveat is that at the beginning there's no drums... and without them it doesn't sound as terran. And there's a chord progression there (perhaps modulation? I'm not that well trained to recognize them with such a loussy speaker) at 0:48 that seems to jump a little too far, and it makes it loose the terran feel (most pop music never jumps that far). Fortunately, just right after, the drums kick in making things clear. Anyway, you can't place drums at the beginning, so I wouldn't touch it much.

About the rising one. With this loussy (let me say again: loussy) speaker, I really can't appreciate it. IMO, for what I hear, it doesn't sound as battly as you say. But if you two agree on this, I'd blame the speaker. Let me get back at you after I listen to it at home. (Ken: warning - I don't have internet at home, so don't mistake my silence during weekends and afternoons as lack of attention/interest). Anyway, the dissonance, more than make it panicky/battly, makes it alien. Don't you think? I mean, the drums are halfway archetypical... it has those... sticks... that make "toc-toc-tick" (sorry, know jack about pop stuff, let alone pattern names) that are indeed archetypical, but it also has all those clashes, and everything in such irregular intervals, that make it loose it. I don't know. To me, it isn't rlaan, and it's not quite aera... but it could be pushed the aera way. Or... you could regularize the drums a bit, follow a repetitive classic pattern, and it would regain some terranness.

All this is subject to change upon listening in a true soundsystem.
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Post by hurleybird »

zaydana wrote:@ the rlaan idea some of you were throwing around:

the composer in me hears this big loud warning siren when you mention "wall of music" - the music can't be more than background in a game or it takes over and people get, well, bored of it.

Thats why the "music" in homeworld works so well. And there are a few other games i've played where music is more musical, but its still only atmospheric. Of course, one of the ways we can accomplish this is just having the music volume defaulted to quite soft. BUT, we need to compose in such a way that music isn't too full, and the music can be pushed out of somebodies mind if they are getting bored with it. When games don't do that, I personally need to turn the music off, as the music is only supposed to set the atmosphere, not be the entire experience. If you need something to get an idea of, think of movie music. Its got ocassional quite loud spouts, but most of the time it is very quick/empty, even silent.

So, rlaan "wall of sound" just can't work. Its a game, we don't need to do everything the same as the fictional culture. If at all possible, it might be worth changing what their "tastes of music" are to make them fit more in with a game than a movie/music festival...
You are right, of course.

The one place I can see the 'wall of sound' fitting in is in a rlaan bar, where the music would come from some sound system, band, or perhaps kareokee machine inside the bar.
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Thx klauss

Post by loki1950 »

thx for the new win binaries klauss now i can listen to the the music in game 8)

Enjoy the Choice :)
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Post by zaydana »

hurleybird - yeah, thats true. It would be awesome if klauss could do some effect type things to put the music in a bar through to make it sound a bit more bare-like as well, that would probably add to the atmosphere
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Post by kensuguro »

klauss: the peace song.. hmm, I was sticking within the confines of "conventional atmospheric" true, the main progression passes several different keys, which pop music seldomly does. Maybe I should really stick to one key? Worth a try.

About the battle, let's just keep that one as it is. Let's move on to different factions/styles until we can map every thing out. Then, we can move songs around as we solidify the styles. After that, we can use them as reference to create the actual songs. (or use them as is)

I think it's good to first map everything out before we get too specific. Right now, I think the importance is to create a reference set. What do you think?

Also, still waiting for info about a music dev forum. Zaydana?
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Post by zaydana »

Well, if anybody replied to that before now i missed it :P But now you said ur interested...

New forum is up, i'm moving all the sound/music topics over there atm.
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Post by hurleybird »

Now thats more like it!
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Post by klauss »

@hurleybird: That's not hard at all, once per-room music is available, which would imply some sort of python callbacks. I'll have to think it through, python callbacks are something too important to make a mess there.
zaydana wrote:It would be awesome if klauss could do some effect type things to put the music in a bar through to make it sound a bit more bare-like as well, that would probably add to the atmosphere
Hm... if you're referring to realtime effects. That's most certainly possible, I could code them, but the CPU load would rise to around 10-12% per stereo channel. I have a pretty efficient yet natural reverb algorithm, but I'm thinking that we could have separate, preprocessed tracks for that matter. I can create them right away (if I had the originals), and make them sound as if they were coming out of a jukebox in a bar. That's not difficult at all. I just need a description (or picture) of the bar to match the looks with its sound. Of course, doing that would mean having to download at least two versions of each bar track: the one playing when you're at the bar, and the one playing when you're near it. That's a point in favour of realtime processing: no need to download extra stuff.
Unless... the one playing when you're at the bar already has the other one mixed up.

@Ken & Zay:
Sorry, I can't help myself.

I have two processings that can sort of do what I was talking about, about "playing with velocities to sort out sounds in a hierarchy that shows a classic harmony no matter what kind of harmony you're using". It makes discordant parts much more pleasant.

For ken's peace track, it does little... but you can hear an overall enhancement of harmony and polyphony. That is, it's hard to compare both, but if you listen at the processed track, it somehow sounds better. That's because of the hierarchy that makes the key more obvious in a very delicate way.

For ken's rising tension: first, I now get the "battly" sound. There's a lot of subtle things that make it battly, that I wasn't getting at work. But the dissonances are a little harsh... this processing smooths them out.

For zay's pieces (all of them), it does the same, actually, but also decompresses them. You still have the master volume too high. Use the app I'm linking (Orfeo) to monitor. If you see an orange block to the left of the waveform monitor, then you have the master volume too high. If you see a red one... you're clipping. That's more than too high... that's absurdly high. Also, I now get the weird harmony in machina, after listening with good headphones. Nice. Although, my point stands in that most of it shows a pretty tonal quality, so the disonant places are somewhat out of place. But not so much as it seemed with this loussy speaker I have here at work. And... after the "Harmonic Statification", it gets much better. In fact, you seem to be doing some multitonal stuff. The "Harmonic Stratification" process balances out both keys, smoothing out the resultant dissonances. Basically, what a good interpreter would do if played by a human. Have a listen.

In all cases, this processing is only to show the results that would come of doing that velocity thing: 1st grade top velocity, the fifth goes next (a little lower than 1st grade), then the 3rd, the 6th, 7th and 2nd. You can invert some of them, to make them stand out, but with moderation.

Ken: If you're using a keyboard as input, you most probably are doing this already, it's an intuitive thing that comes out by itself while playing things. The processing would only intensify it. But... knowing it, and doing it consciously, can improve things quite a bit.


Anyway... I'm uploading the app that does the processing:
Orfeo
And its dependencies:
NSP-Lib

And,
Filter setup for Zaydana's tracks
Filter setup for Kenseguro's tracks

Now... a few instructions on how to use this.

When you execute nspfan.exe, you'll see a screen like this one. Click on the controls highlighted in this screenshot (the button last), and select the input track. Then click on the "cargar" button (highlighted in this screenshot, and select the filter setup (.nfs file). Optionally, (I like doing this) move the brightness control up a bit, and play "Rec". (I know, misnomer). You should get something like this one.

Now... there's a "bypass button". Supposedly, by pressing it you should be able to compare "with" and "without" processing. Thing is, it won't propperly disable one of the filters: the post-PCM compander. So, it can't really be used for comparison. Rather, just have two of them open, one with the .nfs file loaded, and one without, and you'll be able to compare.

If it stutters, your CPU is probably a little slow for the Harmonischer V2 (the most intensive of all processes). It's not really necessary... it only makes it easier to the following filter, "Compander Instrumental" to perform the harmonic analysis for stratification. So, to free up some resources, select the filter, and set its HarWMax parameter to 6 or 5. Anything below 5 will not work well, so you may as well delete it (by selecting it and pressing "Delete" on your keyboard). The process is highlighted in this screenshot.

I hope you like it.

More... I hope you find other uses to Orfeo... it's my preferred app for sound processing (because I wrote it :P ).

Oh...
Zay: I hope you're planning on working some more on moment. The ending... doesn't sound as an ending. More like it was cut out.

And Ken: I really like the peace track. Mostly after the stratification. A slight change, but goes a long way. And I also hope you're considering rounding up the ending. Again, it needs some kind of resolution. Perhaps gradually introducing the first theme, to allow looping. Not just popping it in, like it does now.

And... nothing excludes the possibility of exploring the aeran and rlaan styles while doing the terran tracks. As you said, ken, there's no need to go to specifics, but we should think about them a little nevertheless.
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Post by kensuguro »

whoa, you've got some serious programming going on with your filter application.. what the heck do you do in real life? I thought me being trained in digital media art was science-ish... this is rocket science you have here.

So let me get this straight.. you're somehow fft-ing to get the harmonics and rebalancing them, then resynthesizing to get a more harmonically structured sound? (close?) Beats the purpose of putting the dissonance there in the first place, but a very interesting process.

I'll go ahead and finish up the peace song, go back to the battle song and punch some harmonics structure into the battle song. The battle song's going to be somewhat dissonant nonetheless, maybe just not quite as much as it is right now.
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