Improved music files

For collaboration between the different artists creating music and sound for vegastrike.

What do you think of the new music files (read the first post)

Wow! A lot better! Put them in!
4
29%
Wow! A lot better! Put them in!
4
29%
Better. But not so much to replace the old ones.
0
No votes
Better. But not so much to replace the old ones.
0
No votes
Whatever
1
7%
Whatever
1
7%
Some are good, but some are worse than the originals.
2
14%
Some are good, but some are worse than the originals.
2
14%
I liked the originals better.
0
No votes
I liked the originals better.
0
No votes
That's crap man! What did you think you were doing, messing up with perfection!
0
No votes
That's crap man! What did you think you were doing, messing up with perfection!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 14

klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Improved music files

Post by klauss »

*bump*

This is actually a bump of the sound thread. But since I really would like feedback, and it seemed to go unnoticed, I'll convert it into a poll.


Original post extract:
Klauss wrote: Hey there! A couple of things.

a) I got tired of VS's overly loud (and clipped) music, and so I made a few passes at them. I got what I think is a better sounding set. It's my opinion, though. But, I thought I could share it. Who knows... if it's generally liked, it could take the place of the current set:
they're here
Please don't limit to positive feedback. Negative feedback is appreciated just as much. I'm considering the replacement of the current music pack with those files, but that of course needs the approval not only of the general public (they must think they're better), but also all of the devs (and mostly, the author if possible).

Also, don't limit judgement to strict sound quality. Musical aspects also need review (I changed the dynamics). Don't think also that it doesn't matter how it sounds on loussy sound hardware. Many people will be listening to it in crappy hardware, so it must sound at least as good as the originals in that situation as well.

Oh: and any suggestions you may have, I can easily (probably) do it, so don't think those files are final.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

I haven't fixed my amplifier or bought earphones or anything yet ^^
I just wanted to say that I was waiting for kensaguro to get back to Miami from Japan, to get the original, uncompressed tracks. He said he'd be back in early August, but I forgot to bug him. I just sent him an email.

EDIT:
Got an autoreply; doesn't look good...
----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
magronbass@msd.biglobe.ne.jp

----- Non-delivered information -----
The number of messages in recipient's mailbox exceeded the local limit.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

Don't worry. I knew about your situation. But I was hoping someone else would try them. I really think they're better.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

I know we have very similar musical tastes and almost voted on the basis of my 99% certainty I'd probably like them a lot, just didn't think it was right.
I'm surprised at the lack of responses so far; is everybody gone?, or most don't look at the Art forum? Weird...
I'd say, put them in, and see if anybody complains. Probably they'll notice the difference in-game more so than outside the game.
dandandaman
Artisan
Artisan
Posts: 1270
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:27 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by dandandaman »

Been real busy ... *am* real busy ... ask me when you catch me online klauss :-)

Dan.a
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
-- Pablo Picasso
hurleybird
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Earth, Sol system.
Contact:

Post by hurleybird »

I would vote, but i dont have home internet access ATM (just moved to attend college), after its set up I'll listen and tell you what I think.
hurleybird
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Earth, Sol system.
Contact:

Post by hurleybird »

Ok, I still dont have home internet access, but I downloaded a few of the new songs to a flash disc I had a listen to them, and from what I gather, most of them are an improvement. In general, the new files have a lot less of the hard edge that was present in the originals, in some cases this is good, and in some cases this is bad. However, all of the samples seem to be somewhat treble heavy and mid-range low, to my ears.

In any case, I decided to take a shot at music creation. I've been learning reason 3, and I must say, its a very powerfull and elegent tool, and its fairly easy to pick up on if you have the tutotial CD.

So, this weekend I created a little peice of music meant to be used in conjunction with a mechanist diplomatic or comm screen (think SC2), should VS ever support them.

...and I was going to post it for some review and feedback... but it seems that forum attachements are disabled :(
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

Hurleybird: if you can post a list of the ones you think there was a... deprovement... that would be helpful, along with what is what seems wrong, and I'll see what I can do.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
prolog
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:43 pm
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

Post by prolog »

@hurleybird: I'd love it if vegastrike would support SC2-style commscreens. My favourite moment in that game is when you're approached by the Ur-Quan droid at the beginning, and the awesome Ur-Quan music begins to play...
Current rig: Refurbished Robin
hurleybird
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Earth, Sol system.
Contact:

Post by hurleybird »

Ok, klauss, I had another listen to the songs that I downloaded, and I came up with a more detailed analysis and a few observations.

For starters, the new music files are quite a bit quiter than the old ones, which makes comparison a little difficult, probably part of the reason I said earlier that the new songs have a lot less of an edge.

Its hard to kind of hard to state which files were a deprovement as that as fairly subjective, however, I can, based on my listening, tell you which parts of the song I think were weakened. Just because I list a song doesent necessarily mean that it is completly worse than the original though.

---------

Aera theme battle – Electronic distortion sound has lost edge, as well it, is seems to be too high and is overall distracting. -definite overall deprovement for this song.

Alien rock - Seems to have lost some of the punchiness from the original

Battle 1: seems to be too airy, while the original was very concrete

Military base P: Better than original but IMO the snare too loud, and should be in the background.

Terrain battle: Definite lack of midrange, high frequencies for the snare and cymbals lead to fatigue IMO.

Also, listening to some of the songs, I think there are a few really bad songs which should be removed from the game:

Peace 2 - Why anyone would want to listen to (very crappy) dance music in space is beyond me. Every time I hear this song it makes me want to quit the game

Battle 4 - This is supposedly battle music, but it does not convey the image of battle at all, battle5p is also bad in this regard, but not as bad as battle 4.


In general, to my listening, there was a deprovement in the midrange and highrange (highrange is exagerrated, and midrange is deprived) and both the orignal and the redone versions could have somewhat stronger bass.

Keep in mind that listening is subjective, what I hear could be different than what you are someone else hears.

for reference, listening was conducted on an audigy gamer and z-5500 with surrond mode set to stereo x2 (rear speakers mirror front speakers)
hurleybird
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Earth, Sol system.
Contact:

Post by hurleybird »

prolog wrote:@hurleybird: I'd love it if vegastrike would support SC2-style commscreens. My favourite moment in that game is when you're approached by the Ur-Quan droid at the beginning, and the awesome Ur-Quan music begins to play...
Star control 2 along with descent (1) influenced my diplomacy song. I will try to get it up for review tommorow. I think its pretty good (better than current VS songs, but not quite up to the UQM remix tracks) but I could be mistaken. If you guys like it I'll make some more.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

hurleybird wrote:For starters, the new music files are quite a bit quiter than the old ones, which makes comparison a little difficult, probably part of the reason I said earlier that the new songs have a lot less of an edge.
The volume difference was very intentional. It was the first reason I had to process the music files. Most of the original music files were clipped, which in conjunction with 22Khz sampling created very, very "hard edges", or more precisely, square-wave distortions (awful high-pitch distortion).
First step in getting rid of that, is lowering volume. As a standard, normal tracks should mantain an average intensity of -10dBFS. So, that's what I did: bring them down to an average of -10dBFS, without loosing the relative intensities among them.
Ingame, in CVS, volume balances out perfectly. (I'm not sure I commited volume .config changes... I'll check that)
hurleybird wrote:Aera theme battle – Electronic distortion sound has lost edge, as well it, is seems to be too high and is overall distracting. -definite overall deprovement for this song.
Odd... I found the original even more distracting. I'll go through a listening session to see a) what you mean, and b) what can be done. About the lost edge: I know what it is. I can fix that. Just not sure I want to. I'll have to critically listen to it.
hurleybird wrote:Alien rock - Seems to have lost some of the punchiness from the original
Agree. One of the processings I used has a hard time with some kinds of sounds, and the result is reduced "punch", or more precisely, pre-echo. I developed a second pass for that algorithm that reduces that effect, but I didn't apply it (both because of lazyness and because I hoped it wouldn't be that noticeable). I'll apply it, and see if it improves.
hurleybird wrote:Battle 1: seems to be too airy, while the original was very concrete
Not sure what you mean. I'll listen to it, and hope your meaning comes clear then (it's quite usual that things make sense only after a listening session or two).
hurleybird wrote:Military base P: Better than original but IMO the snare too loud, and should be in the background.
Agree. I'll try to bring it down a little. It won't be easy, though. And I'm not particularly fond of this one.
hurleybird wrote:Terrain battle: Definite lack of midrange, high frequencies for the snare and cymbals lead to fatigue IMO.
I kinda like the snare and cymbals, and agree about the midrange. I'll try to give a little more measure to the high frequencies (they're a little noisy - that's the only thing that bothers me, product of the original clippiness), but I think the only thing really bothering you is the lack of midranges. Lacking midrange usually has that effect: makes the high frequencies stand too much, and produce fatigue. Also, I'll apply the previously mentioned second pass - snare and cymbals will benefit from it.
hurleybird wrote:Peace 2 - Why anyone would want to listen to (very crappy) dance music in space is beyond me. Every time I hear this song it makes me want to quit the game
Agree... but it has a very distinct VS feeling for me... perhaps because 0.4.3 plays it over and over and over...
hurleybird wrote:Battle 4 - This is supposedly battle music, but it does not convey the image of battle at all, battle5p is also bad in this regard, but not as bad as battle 4.
Battle 4 is actually pretty good, it's only misused. I rearranged their use in CVS (still needs work, though), and it fits much better now.
hurleybird wrote:In general, to my listening, there was a deprovement in the midrange and highrange (highrange is exagerrated, and midrange is deprived) and both the orignal and the redone versions could have somewhat stronger bass.
Hm... stronger bass... perhaps...
hurleybird wrote:Keep in mind that listening is subjective, what I hear could be different than what you are someone else hears.
Always in my mind. But... until now, you're the only one providing feedback, so...
hurleybird wrote:for reference, listening was conducted on an audigy gamer and z-5500 with surrond mode set to stereo x2 (rear speakers mirror front speakers)
That's quite messy, you know. If you have the rear speakers actually at the rear, pointing towards the front speakers. Phase cancellations will create a messy environment. Try putting them like this, in the same mode:

Code: Select all

    rl   fl                fr    rr
    /    |       M        |    \


                  U
M=monitor
U=you
rl=rear/left
fl=front/left
fr=front/right
rr=rear/right
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
hurleybird
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1671
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Earth, Sol system.
Contact:

Post by hurleybird »

Ok, thanks to chuck I got my song up.

You can grab it here

Keep in mind, its still a WIP, and i still have some work to do (mainly with percussion stuff) In any case comments and criticism are very welcome and encouraged.

Have fun!
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

@hurleybird: your comments on most things were right on target. I'm redoing all of them, and when they're updated I'll post. The "lost edge" and "punch" was actually due to an error: I got three filters inverted (their order reversed). After fixing that, everything improved. But the bass boost also helps a lot. I'm a little too careful with bass since I use headphones for all this work, and sometimes you can't predict how different speakers and amps play bass sounds (mostly since people do very different and mostly exaggerated things to their bass power knob)
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

...and since amplifier manufacturers don't bother providing sub-sonic rumble supression filters...
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

Probably, chuck, because they're very hard to build.
At least in the digital realm, it's really a pain getting one of those to be phase-linear. You either have to create a >10K tap FIR filter (very inefficient), or work wonders with an IIR filter (almost always non-phase-linear).

Since the analog realm only has IIR-like filters, I guess it's harder even.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

I guess it was easy for me, as I don't believe in phase linearity :) Actually, I do believe in avoiding ringing, but for my amp what I did was I put a 3-pole hi-pass at 23 Hz, another 3-pole hi-pass at 27 Hz, and a single pole hi-pass at 31 Hz, sort of like to spread-out the ringings. All analog, but using $20 op-amps, and current sources on the outputs to force them into class A. May not sound leading edge when spelled out, but it sounds leading edge when music is coming through :D
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

30hz is too high for my taste, though.

The piano alone can go as low as 40hz... some pianos (Bösendorfer, for instance), even lower.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
tiny paintings
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:35 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Post by tiny paintings »

hurleybird wrote:Ok, thanks to chuck I got my song up.

You can grab it here

Keep in mind, its still a WIP, and i still have some work to do (mainly with percussion stuff) In any case comments and criticism are very welcome and encouraged.

Have fun!
The bass needs tweaking, badly. It's very loud and very deep, maybe you fill it out with some higher frequency bass too? And lower it. Secondly, I don't really like how you use the bass drum in the beginning of it either... but that's just my two cents.

Also, it seems a little "all over the place" for such a short song. There are a plethora of quirky sounds and none of them really seem to have a focus...

Last critique is the "drum thingy" (woohoo for my english skillz) after approx. 50 seconds - don't like it.

Sorry for not being more specific, I'm not a musician.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

@chuck:

Phase linearity is important.
When filters are obscenely nonlinear in phase response, they mess with transients in a bad way.

DC filters, however, due to their near-zero poles, usually have a very nonlinear phase response... but only very close to zero. Away from it, it becomes acceptably linear.

Thing is... engineers tend to be way too conservative. They don't listen. They only see numbers.
And, technically speaking, IIR filters are inherently difficult to phase-linearize. So, they avoid placing them if possible.
Also, at least in the digital domain, it's easy to make a mistake and enter the realm of precision loss, which really is a nightmare. Having too many poles too close will create ugly biquad filters. That's why I usually just create a double pole, and apply the same filter multiple times. If the pole is close enough to 0, phase response linearizes itself before it matters, and everything sounds nice - even if technically speaking it's not the best practice, it assures BIBO even in the face of precision loss, and that's good.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

IOW, I should halve the frequencies of my HPF stages? I'll try that after I fix my amp. (And I suppose BIBO stands for bit-in-bit-out, as in "no loss of info density"?)
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

I don't know how analogue filters behave. So I wouldn't dare giving you advice about that. If they were digital... yes.

And BIBO stands for Bounded-input-Bounded-output. Means that it won't ramp up to infinity or something nasty like that. It's easy to achieve BIBO in ideal IIR filters, but when precision loss shows its face, any usual analysis goes down the toilet. Things like catastrphic cancellation are the most common. And since biquad filters are rational functions, you can imagine that a catastrophic cancellation in the divider polynomial can be pretty bad.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

Hurleybird. I listened at your track.

It's an interesting idea the one you start with. And the fact that you interrupt repetitions from time to time to change patterns shows some taste, which is not common nowadays.

But, it still sounds... what in spanish would be "Tosco"... unrefined... which is somewhat expected in a WIP.

And, near the ending... well... too loaded. Too many things going on. If you put too many dissimlar stuff (and you have done that in the ending), it becomes plain noise. Rather stick to the initial style: lots of percussion, but in a logical pattern, which is much more musical than just adding more and more elements just like that. If you still want to keep that much, I would suggest working the velocities (or intensities) to separate them into layers. That way, they will be much more understandable, and sound less like pure noise.

And... either loose the chorus, or find a better patch. It just sounds too synthesized. At least for my taste.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
jackS
Minister of Information
Minister of Information
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: The land of tenure (and diaper changes)

Post by jackS »

any chance I could get a tarball or other archive, compressed or otherwise, so I can be lazy and not DL them one at a time ;-) ?
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

Kay. I'll tar them. It will take a while to upload, though. Be patient. Compressed they are... HQ Ogg. I could create Low quality ones, but what would be the point? They aren't much useful for critic listening that way.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
Post Reply