Musical Ideas [WIP]

For collaboration between the different artists creating music and sound for vegastrike.
zaydana
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Musical Ideas [WIP]

Post by zaydana »

Hey guys

I thought i'd put up some of the music i'm workin on for Vegastrike and some other older pieces i have which i thought might fit in, so you can give me feedback on the good/bad, any other ideas you have, etc. etc.

So, heres some links to what I have so far: You can probably tell from what is there that my more "polished" music sounds a lot different to the WIP stuff, so for those last three tracks: the actual sound is nothing like it will be in the end. So keep that in mind when you say stuff about it. I'd really like to here more idaes on how to make the music I have more VS-ish tho. Basically, any useful criticism is welcome. The other thing is that this music i have posted shuold give you an idea of what style i write. Basically, now you will know why i don't even bother with the suggestions for clasical stuff :) Its not my type of thing - I have nothing against it, but i'm not going to be the one to write it.

Anyhow, have fun listening/telling me it is crap =)

P.S. i'll be posting any more music related stuff here, when i get there.
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Allright! (Glad it's not a bit-torrent download this time.) I'll be sure to listen to them after work.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

I'll take a hear at them too. And I know about classical stuff: the classical style is not to be written lightly, it usually takes months at least, usually years, to have a well rounded piece. It's just too complex for "casual" composing. Besides, this style suits ambient music the most.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
Chaos
Trader
Trader
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 8:27 pm
Location: France

Post by Chaos »

I like your stuff, man. :)

It is smooth and sounds good. There are good ideas.

Very nice for something just WIP.

Finishing a track is hard, but I am sure you can make absolutly great things on par with commercial music.

My only criticism is that theses various tunes don't evocate much space to me. The electronic kit for the drums (with the big oomphy bassdrum) sounds a little r'n'b/rap, the big bass lines adds to this feeling. Don't get me wrong, i like, but for VS i would see other sounds/ambiances, something not already heard, possibly a little strange. With more sounds effect and more research on the sound design department.

I hope this criticism is usefull :)
Chaos
Trader
Trader
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 8:27 pm
Location: France

Post by Chaos »

In fact to refine my judgement, there are possibly some situations in VS where you want all sort of music, and theses tunes could find their place as they are.

But i am sure some sort audio treatments here and there to twist a little the overall ambiance could be enough to just give the futurist edge they are lacking (from my own taste of course).
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

I like this kind of music. "Psy Ambiance?". There are some of issues, though, the most salient of which is #1 that the files are terribly distorted. I'm playing them through Soundforge, and the vu meters are always in the red zone and hitting the top, half the time; in fact I can look at the wave; It's clipping like crazy. Actually, Salad it's okay, the rest all clip.

Issue #2, the bass-drum is off tune. Especially distracting in Air, where it's very loud. Does the software you use allow you to specify a musical note for a drum? Professional drummers tune their patches, and it makes a hell of a lot of difference; drumsets off tune tend to sound like noise. Often the best note for a bass drum is the tonic of the scale you're playing in; sometimes the 5th; but this drum sounds very off to my ears, and too loud. The bass guitar is also way too loud; and this from a bass-guitar lover.

Issue #3 is not an altogether separate issue from #2: First song I played was Premonition, and I like my music loud, so I cranked it up; then suddenly I heard an explosion, and my ashtray fell from my desk, upside down, before I realized it was the start of the bass-guitar track. I know what you are trying to achieve but I think that's using excessive force. One thing I've noticed about songs that wake me up from my thoughs to say "Wow! That bass!" are usually songs in which the bass comes in, NOT so much terribly loud, but very pure, un-distorted and even. A good example of a band that does that in almost every song are Thievery corporation. They have this song... "Liberation Front" I think it was, that for some number of bars at the beginning they have bass but no percussion, then for another number of bars they have percussion but no bass, and then the bass comes in together with percussion and is so moving you don't know what to do with yourself; but at no point whatsoever in the song is the bass, or the percussion, too loud. Quite evenly balanced.

But actually in Salad the balance is perfect. Salad is pretty close to friggin perfect. So maybe you're aware of what I'm talking about, and that's why you say it's 'work in progress'... Salad is almost a masterpiece: I'd just put a couple more instrumental lines at the high end. Ok, first four bars are the piano chords, then the synth comes in, but you wait 8 bars before the melotronish sound comes in, then another 8 bars before the percussion. I'd introduce new instruments every 4-bars. 8-bars to wait is a bit long for this attention deficient society :) And if it adds to too many tracks you could remove some as you add others. Just my .02.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

I agree with chuck in everything. It seems chuck and I have the same taste in music. What are the odds?

I like Premonition too, but needs a lil work towards the end.

I have some suggestions to make regarding Salad, though I'm having a hard time trying to explain. Rather, I'd like to show you. Any chance we might get the original files (and whatever program you're using)?
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
zaydana
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by zaydana »

well, srry bout the late reply - my ADSL modem died so now i'm stuck on dialup. The program I am using is fruityloops , which accoutns for most of the distortion, wrong note in percussion, etc. I've found tho, that if i turn the master volume in it down it solves a lot of problems =) If you still want the original .flps, give me a yell and i'll send 'em over.

One quick thing tho... it might be my untrained ear but probably more my speakers... the bass volume and stuff soundsthe same in premonition and salad to me? My rig is a 2x15" JBL's and a 400W crown amp... so its not exactly a studio rig, more an auditorium rig in a studio :) My dad recently got some headphones, would you recommend i steal them instead of using the JBLs?
tiny paintings
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:35 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Post by tiny paintings »

2x15", what no tweeters/mid? ;P 2x15" SHOULD give you PLENTY of ompfh... I have 2x6" (or 8"? dunno) per speaker + 2x60W and I've got plenty off bass on my (non-studio) rig... I didn't listen to premonition but the difference between air and salad is HUGE. Air is just way to bassy, the bassdrum is rather disturbing.

Headphones are nice, but ideally you should have both headphones and monitors IMO... things just don't sound the same in headphones (no crossover...).
You can get decent headphones rather cheaply - DT770 cost around $150 here, and you can get other decent sounding cans for $50-100.

EDIT: just listend to premonition - bass mayhem! ;) and difference between salad and air wasn't as big as I had thought, but still big.

EDIT2: almost forgot - nice work :) I like salad. Air... well, no. Premonition is kind of cool, if you kill the bass :) I cut out 10 dB, 2 octaves at 100 Hz with a band-pass and it almost sounded normal on my speakers ;)
zaydana
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by zaydana »

heh, there are tweeters, but no mids. Just ur stock PA speakers.

Hmm, now I listen to it a bit more premonition's bass really is too loud. That was somehing i did up one night while I was really tired tho, so that could accoutn for it. Like I said, WIP =) For me, most of the work doesn't involve writing a song, it involves tweaking it :)

Air is suppost to sound like it is - trantor class planets are planets covered in city. Think the imperial capital in star wars... croissant or something like that ;) I dunno if you people realized that... but it aint flying music. Its suppost to portray busy, loud, noisy, city.

Also, I don't know if you people have listened to "mission" yet, as you havn't said anything about it. But thats the product of a lot of tweaking, its basically the balance I aim for. If you have problems with that, its probably a good idae to tell me, as that is a "finished" song.
tiny paintings
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:35 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Post by tiny paintings »

I'm not saying air is bad, it's just doesn't fit my taste. I like the other ones I listened to more. It would be cool if it was more chaotic though - that's how I imagine a trantor class planet, lots of things going on in a chaotic matter, it sounds rather "relaxed" to me as it is now.
Psst, Coruscant is a total rip off of Trantor :shock:

OT: Our standard PA speakers are four high-to-your-chest basses + four mid+horn tweeter tops ;) Well, standard for "large" gigs at least. They play loud :)
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

zay: I would still like the originals. My suggestions weren't about sound quality, clipping or anything, but more "musical". That's why I can't explain: I both lack the words (never talked about music in English - plus I don't really know that much about it), and they're difficult things to explain, too detailed. So I would "tweak" it for you, and if you like the idea, you should do the same yourself, following the idea (as mine will surely be flawed in many aspects). Also, if you can tell me where to get that program, it would be cool.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
zaydana
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by zaydana »

Klauss: http://www.flstudio.com/
altho, problem is demo can't save and real thing costs a fair bit. However, you could render what you change (i think) to mp3 and send me that...
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Zay, I just listened to Mission again, and it really rocks! If I didn't notice how good it was the first time, it was because the bass drum was annoying me so much I couldn't pay attention to the music. Did you read my post in the off-topic forum about the dream I had? I can imagine a laberinthine, indoor city and Mission playing when the game detects you're exploring it.

Anyways, to be able to appreciate the music, it took putting my bass slider almost all the way to the bottom, which is about -30 dB. With my speaker (18" Eminence Sigma 18 Pro) in a full-volume bass-reflex enclosure, I do most of my music listening with the bass slider almost all the way to the top. I *never* needed to take it down, until now with your tracks... I'd say the bass needs to come down in amplitude by a 4:1 ratio, (12dB), and the bass drum to come down by a 16:1 ratio (24dB). Minimum!
I would even try listening to it without the bass drum at all. Just the fact that it sounds so off tune and horrible and annoying.
There's another thing that can be done with bass drums, other than tuning them, and that is to muffle them. If you take the basic bass drum in a drum set, and glue a good amount of fibre glass inside the frame, and put heavy cloth over the front and back, you get a thump that is so short-lived that your ear can't distinguish the note, in so few cycles. That's what the bass drum is like if you listen to St-Germain: Their bass drum sounds not like "thump", but more like "thup"... ;-) So, if this software gives you decay control, you can turn it to minimum time (maximum dampening). If the sound is sampled, maybe you can get a better sample, or record one off a drum-playing friend.
Note that I'm not suggesting "muffling" the bass drum in the other meaning of the word: "low-pass-filtering". In fact, and by the way, it seems to me the bass drum IS low pass filtered, in the track: It doesn't seem to have the kind of presence of the other drums or cymbals.

One more accoustic issue: The drumset have no reverb at all, and the other instruments have a lot of reverb. What's usually done is that most instruments are put into a low reverb group and one instrument may use high reverb; but if several instruments use high reverb, and one or two don't, it's as if the band is playing two blocks away, but the drummer is next to you. And the rest of drums and cymbals are a bit too loud too, maybe a 3dB adjustment would be enough.

Do please lower the master volume, and the volume in the recording section of the soundcard driver settings. The way it is recorded, the wave exceeds the range that the encoding can represent. IOW: It is recorded way too loud. Typically, recording level should be about 6 dB below clipping.
What you can do is, after recording: play the track in Winamp, then play any song you like and whose overall sound would be what you aim for, and compare the levels in the graphic, multi-band vu-meter; and then make sure you keep more or less the same levels across in time.

Musically it rocks. The only detail I'd change is the melotronish track lasting almost the entire song. You have only one short break from it in the middle of the song. There need to be at least a couple more sections without it. One rule I'd borrow from jazz is to give many an instrument a chance, but have no instrument playing for the entire duration (not even drums, unless they vary *a lot*).
Last edited by chuck_starchaser on Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tiny paintings
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:35 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Post by tiny paintings »

As for the clipping part... you probably want to add compressors to pretty much everything if you haven't already. It'll give you the same fat sound without distorting the signal.
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

The problem with compressors is that they amplify noise; unless you combine them with a noise-gate, but noise gates all sound artificial. So, I'd only use a compressor for the recalcitrant singer who can't keep a constant distance from the microphone. For everything else I'd rather control the level manually.
zaydana
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by zaydana »

yah, i agree with that one. Compressors take control away from you, and generally sound a lot worse than just getting the levels right. Sadly, getting the levels right is not something that i'm graet at :P i dunno why, but I never think I have enough bass in there even tho i know there is too much. Its a pitty none of you guys have FL Studio so you could balance it for me ;)
tiny paintings
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:35 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Post by tiny paintings »

Getting the levels right and using compressors won't sound the same of course.
But I'm saying that if he prefered how it actually was mixed now the proper way to get that sound would be compressors.
Unless you compress A LOT noise shouldn't really be an issue IMO. And noise in silent parts can alwyas be gated away - I never had a problem with that.
Either way, you're probably right - getting the levels right here is probably better.
But imagine what would rock sound like without compressors... :roll:
chuck_starchaser
Elite
Elite
Posts: 8014
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:03 am
Location: Montreal
Contact:

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Zay, just do what I said: Take a professionally recorded song in mp3 or ogg. Check the levels with Winamp. Then make sure you recording has the same levels across the bands. This way you can judge visually, which allows you to be more objective. I could cut bass with soundforge's EQ, but it's not the same thing as lowering the the bass track's volume.
The recording levels for bass and drums relative to the other instruments is pretty much standardized across the recording industry. That's why I never need to touch my eq when listening to music. Once I get the levels the way I like them, they work right for any song, just about.

Any chance you could download a different drum-set set of samples? Not just because of the bass drum, but the cymbals sound tinny also. I like the sustained ssssssssssssss of Zildjians. These cymbals sound cheap.

The music is good though; I was just listening again to "untitled", and if the drum set did it any justice, the percussion is quite unique and futuristic.

What kind of software is it? Does it allow you to record multi-track wav, for example? You can customize sampling rate? Bits per sample? Can you record in float format?
If you could record each instrument in its own channel, at 88KHz sampling, and in 32-bit float format, it might add up to like 100 megs, but we could really work with it, rebalance it and all.
zaydana
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by zaydana »

heh, i''ll try the thing out with just changing the levels comparing it to other songs in winamp.

I think though, you must have missed what FL Studio is... Fruityloops :) And if you havn't heard of that, the recording is THE WORST recording you have ever come across. Its a sequencer, and as such basically everything there is just sequenced using whatever samples came with the program. No recording whatsoever. I _could_ get my friend to make some samples for me with his $5000 DW kit and my school's good ziljians, but I still dunno how good that would work for this type of music. And even the samples that i'm using atm are better than anything i could make with my own drum kit ;) Stupid cheapo percussion plus...

Anyhow, when I get a little bit of time, i'll try balancing the levels again.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

About reverb, I noticed that and played them through my reverb algos, and they sound like 10x better. After applying some reconstruction (samples are mixed at different rates, and they end up having the same distortions the speech files on Privateer have) even the bass comes a little into place (although it still needs to be adjusted).

I could do one of two:
a) Upload the "fixed" version of the files so you can check it out
b) Like (a), but with updated versions (I guess you kept working with those files, so there must be a newer version). Possibly after tweaking the bass.

About fruityloops, I downloaded. All I need now is the .flps files.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
zaydana
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by zaydana »

nah, i havn't really had too much time to play around with anything except levels. so... if you just upload what you got i'll check it out. Also, can u pm ur email address so i can email the .flp? i don't really want to give them to everybody/anybody.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

A couple things:

1) These are the processed music files. They're the same ones you uploaded, but with some processing (I took the liberty to put the base where it belongs - if you don't like it, I can not do that the next time). I haven't played with the .flp files yet... I just got them. I'll tell you how it goes.

2) Hey! That FL is neat. And It's not so low-quality after all. In the audio options, be sure to enable "6-point hermite" interpolation. It's really good. Before I used FFT for interpolation, I used a 4-point hermite, and it's real good. Even a 4-point lagrangian (precursor to the hermite) works great. Almost as good as the FFT interpolation. I use the latter for performance reasons: since my program works in FFT form all the time, it takes it almost no time to perform the highpass needed after padding. (If you don't understand what I'm talking about, don't worry).
I noticed FL can use multi-velocity layers for samples, but I can't find where to setup such thing. Any idea? I could record some neat samples using multi-velocity layers.
I'm beginning to like this thing... I'm wondering if it deserves to be bought... I could even create a DX-plugin (or VST-plugin) form of my filters and use them there. Nice.
Oh... I also found out that the default master volume level is way too high. Take it down to 70%, or even 50%, and it will sound way better. I use my own program to monitor its output, since it automatically detects clipping and alerts me (both hard and soft clipping, it's a real boon when recording). But you should be able to see clipping merely by zooming in near peaks in any wave recording software. You have to lay down the volume until there are no such clipped peaks.

PS: You'll notice there's no more clipping in the processed versions I uploaded. I amazed myself, usually clipping is unrepairable, but high-frequency reconstruction along with reverberation seems to fix most of it, if not all of it.

EDIT: Corrected the link. I'm messing up links too often :(
Last edited by klauss on Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
zaydana
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by zaydana »

erm... ur link don't work:S
Post Reply