Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

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Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

I was looking at the list of factions and status of their voices and the question for this thread is, what would the Klk'k voice sound like? How do we create those sounds?

The wiki species info is unusually detailed:
Klk'k speech is produced primarily as a combination of vowels and tones from the nasal airways and clicks from the tongues and resonating chamber. Manipulation of the closures to the nasal airways also produce a smaller number of consonants. The tonal nature of each airway is independent, and harmonics have semantic and syntactic meanings in most of the native Klk'k languages. The iconic Klk'k nasal horn takes explicit advantage of the dual-tonal capabilities of the Klk'k. Some human observers have likened Klk'k speech to listening to a pair of Hawaiians having an animated conversation with a pair of Khoisan, but most real xeno-linguists attempt to discourage such simplistic comparisons as more misleading than informative. "Klk'k" is itself an anthropic transliteration of their word for themselves, likewise for Ktah, and Tk'latl, etc. As the Klk'k have proven far more adept at understanding spoken human tongues, than the reverse, even if they cannot produce the full range of human sounds, the anthropic forms have become accepted standards, rather than requiring all humans to utilize translator devices to refer to anything of Klk'k origin. Klk'k living or traveling among humans tend to equip themselves with vocalizing augmentation devices that fill in the missing gaps in their ability to emulate human speech.
It looks like they speak the human language, with some impediments such as limited consonants. If the consonants are created by closing nasal passages, are their consonants limited to soft sounds like M and N? Which other consonants are available, which would be replaced by clicks or other sounds they can make, and which augmented by the vocalizers?
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by RedAdder »

Well, they use vocalising devices, so these can be emulated by human language.
They would sound like Hawkins, maybe.
The language would be mixed with a few Kl'kk words where the automated translators fails or prefers the original term.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by pheonixstorm »

Or you can try soemthing like what they had in Babylon 5 for ambassador Kosh(sp) The idea above sounded good though
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

Hmmm. I read the wiki guidance to mean that Klk'k (when dealing with humans) prefer to speak human languages with minimal mechanical augmentation. You guys interpreted it the opposite way. So I'd like to hear more opinions on what the wiki meant.

I wasn't asking how the translator would sound, we solved that a while back when we decided that 32d century computers and translators would be able to make a better voice than the current free utilities or Stephen Hawking's voicebox. So we have been vocoding human actors' voices to different degrees.

When the developers wrote the wiki guidance they made reference to the Hawaiian and Khosian language. I've never heard either but found a detailed description of Hawaiinthat tells me the few consonants they have, and a description of the click consonantsused by the Khosian family of languages. From that I can derive a hypothetical "speech impediment" tailored to their racial limitations:
Broadcast as written in game code: Anyone know where to get good Oolak'kl around here? The canned stuff on-board is reprocessed crap. Literally.

Broadcast as pronounced by an Klk'k: Anyone know where to ket kood Oolak'kl awound heew? huh kanned suff on poawd is wepwocessǂ kwap. Liǂewally.
This creates a problem with my interpretation of the wiki's guidance. The Klk'k are going to sound like 2-year-olds from New Jersey. I don't think we want that.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

I read the guidance just as you did; with the assistant reproducing sounds only when needed.
So probably there's room for normal recording by the voice actor, as long as post production takes care of that and substitutes, or better, processes sharply just the sounds that are meant to be produced by the assistant, making them sound clearly artificial.

Audacity's vocoder didn't sound too clear, if you remember, but let me use the word in a general meaning:
"wepwocessǂ kwap" is recorded normally as "reprocessed crap", but then the R's and T's get vocoded and you get "RepRocess'T cRap".

Of course, the first step would be to decide which sounds can't be naturally produced by them and so trigger the assistant, but that step is needed as well if we decide to go for impeded pronunciation without further processing.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

CLoneWolf wrote:So probably there's room for normal recording by the voice actor, as long as post production takes care of that and substitutes, or better, processes sharply just the sounds that are meant to be produced by the assistant, making them sound clearly artificial.
As they say in those Guinness beer commercials, "Brilliant!"

Here's a rough draft: http://www.willadsenfamily.org/VSvoice/klkk_test_1.ogg

1. recorded using one of my weird voices
2. clean-up and editing
3. turned 1 voice into 2 using reverse delay (didn't like the Multi-Voice chorus effect, its delay wouldn't go less than 10 ms)
4. added clicks to all the hard consonants in a separate track
5. my vocoder plug-in is not working, so I chopped the wave forms for the D, R, T, and TH sounds -- much more subtle than the vocoder would have been, maybe too subtle

Step 4 is time-consuming, and step 5 even more so. But are we on the right track?
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

Turbo wrote:As they say in those Guinness beer commercials, "Brilliant!"
Really? Thanks! Glad you appreciated it! :mrgreen:
Ahem... What's up, Klk'k? (Sorry, I couldn't resist! ...besides, LIHW are even more WB-ish than that :roll: ) Good draft IMHO, jokes apart.
Turbo wrote:[...]
4. added clicks to all the hard consonants in a separate track
5. my vocoder plug-in is not working, so I chopped the wave forms for the D, R, T, and TH sounds -- much more subtle than the vocoder would have been, maybe too subtle
Yes, maybe; I think there's a sweet spot that must be found that makes the assistant easily noticeable (making Klk'k stand out even to players who haven't read their description) and not disturbing at the same time.

I'll try to fiddle with other plugins available as I installed quite a few that Audacity can use; I suspect that the early envelope of a chorus/flanger might help adding some artificial taste while partly keeping the original timbre...
Turbo wrote:Step 4 is time-consuming, and step 5 even more so. But are we on the right track?
More than just time-consuming; this kind of surgical post production is the bane of a laziness like mine! :mrgreen:
But right or not, this is surely on the track of what the canon description made me imagine when I read it.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

CLoneWolf wrote:Ahem... What's up, Klk'k?
It wasn't supposed to sound like Bugs Bunny, it was supposed to sound more like the alien (I think his name was The Director?) in that Dr Who episode when they visited the factory on Pluto, back when Tom Baker played the part of the Doctor.
CLoneWolf wrote:I'll try to fiddle with other plugins available as I installed quite a few that Audacity can use; I suspect that the early envelope of a chorus/flanger might help adding some artificial taste while partly keeping the original timbre...
I hope you can find something better than what I had, the most I listen the more I think it's too subtle.
CLoneWolf wrote:this is surely on the track of what the canon description made me imagine when I read it.
Good...we'll keep thinking and see what comes of it, besides headaches. :mrgreen:
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

Turbo wrote:It wasn't supposed to sound like Bugs Bunny, it was supposed to sound more like the alien (I think his name was The Director?) in that Dr Who episode when they visited the factory on Pluto, back when Tom Baker played the part of the Doctor.
I wish my memories of Dr Who were fresher than when I was a child, I guess it didn't have the deserved success here in Italy :(
Turbo wrote:I hope you can find something better than what I had, the most I listen the more I think it's too subtle.
It's very challenging, as the assistant kicks in for very short sounds; making whole sentences sound artificial (Andolians, Mechanists) was quite easy. The added difficulty comes from the fact that a Klk'k natural voice is already more complex than ours (properly rendered by your voice doubling).
There's the chance that even the best we ever get is still on the subtle side, but we can always claim that the assistant is good enough to mimick the speaker's timbre very closely; after all, we still have the clicks to draw the listener's attention :roll:
Turbo wrote:Good...we'll keep thinking and see what comes of it, besides headaches. :mrgreen:
Luckily for my headaches, I haven't had much time so far for experiments :mrgreen: but I've come up with a way of working on this that might help testing different attempts:

rather than processing the consonants directly on the original voice, I import it twice and keep one not processed, fiddle with the other for the whole recording length in one pass, and only then I surgically select (zoom and slow speed play are our friends for such surgery) the parts on both tracks, alternatively muting the processed assistant and attenuating the natural voice.

The problem is that in Audacity the Undo works as a classical stack, we can't selectively undo middle steps (AFAIK); so, to save the most of work between attempts, the alternate muting should be done first, before knowing what the result will sound like, and only then applying filters to the assistant part.

If you have a better workflow for time saving's sake, feel free to share it; my laziness will raise you a monument somewhere in the galaxy :mrgreen:
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

Hmmm...what if we pre-recorded the consonants we need (sucgh as the T, B, D, and R sounds), vocoded them, and inserted them in as a separate track when needed?
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

Very good idea, that might help creating a pitch seam that makes the assistant more noticeable.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

This might be a good time to mention that the stable version of Audacity has no vocoder, and the beta version is very unstable on my hardware. As a result I don't have a vocoder worth using. So if you could record and alter those sounds I'd appreciate it. It would make the machine sounds that much different from the organic. Or, I could extract the sounds from the mechanist recordings you already made.

So...is the voice I was using for the organic portion of the Klk'k okay? Or does the community prefer to wait and hear the next version of the preview?
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

Since the proper vocoder wasn't satisfactory since our first experiments, I have totally avoided it for the Klk'k; all the combinations I tried, though, were still too subtle (considering how short the single sounds are) to be easily recognized as artificial intervention. So, even if I was concerned to obtain something understandable, artificial, and at the same time not yet done, I think that the Mechanist effect is the cheapest way to the goal.

And since the flanger works well with longer sounds, I think that cutting the relevant sounds from the Mechanist speech is the best solution. Of course it's the laziest part of me speaking here, but it's also the truth :mrgreen:
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

No objection. It's not that lazy -- cutting the sounds isn't too hard, and pasting them into the new lines will be time consuming. But as soon as I get back home (I'm on a business trip this week) I will work on creating "draft version 2" for the community to listen and provide further feedback.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

It is lazy on my side, for not doing more recording work! :mrgreen:
Of course I can help with the cuts; what are all the consonants we're after?
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

CLoneWolf wrote:what are all the consonants we're after?
Current canon does not clearly answer that, it only says that their mouthparts are different enough from ours to limit their range of consonants, and says those limits are somewhat like Hawaiian. Hawaiian (per the link I posted further up) has the following consonsants:
/p, k ~ t, ʔ, h, m, n, l ~ n, w ~ v/. There is allophonic variation of [k] with [t], [w] with [v], and [l] with [n]. The [t]–[k] variation is highly unusual among the world's languages.

So what is missing? It could be some or all of this list:

R, TH -- these require your tongue so it is feasible the Klk'k might not be able to make them; furthermore TH and R can be sustained over a period of time, so we can make sure the machine voice is clearly heard
D -- this sound also requires your tongue but is short in duration so the machine part will be harder to hear as a distinct voice
B -- this sound users your lips so maybe we should consider allowing the Klk'k to say it since it doesn't fit canon as well

Does that make sense?
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

It makes sense to me, but I am not a law... ahem, a linguist, nevermind a "xeno-linguist", so I'll just trust you and anyone who has met a Klk'k (voice recordings or it didn't happen! :mrgreen: )
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

OK, here is the same line with the mechanist overlay of D and R (because TH is not used in this particular line) as we discussed. Does it sound alien, annoying, or both?
http://www.willadsenfamily.org/VSvoice/klkk_test_2.ogg
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

Turbo wrote:OK, here is the same line with the mechanist overlay of D and R (because TH is not used in this particular line) as we discussed. Does it sound alien, annoying, or both?
http://www.willadsenfamily.org/VSvoice/klkk_test_2.ogg
IMHO: Alien in the sense of artificial, indeed; annoying not at all, but it doesn't seem to improve comprehension a lot, which would be the point of that device; maybe it's just a matter of sharper syncing (also to cover the originally flawless recording where flaws are supposed to be), and I know it's a real nightmare. But unless better practices emerge, meanwhile I'd say it's viable.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

Agreed -- the timing is hard to do. When we speak normally, one sound merges into the next. With practice I might be able to re-record and literally omit the sounds the Klk'k cannot say...it's worth a try anway.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

I'd say, don't put too much effort in omitting the sounds directly and completely, just make sure you don't stress them, so that they can be surgically muffled before super-imposing the assistant; it should be a little cheaper.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

Maybe instead of trying to mute the unwanted sounds in the original voice recordings, I can fade them in and out. That would make the result more tolerant of the timing issues resulting from the tendency of normal speech to slur one sound into the next.

Also, two other points occur to me:

* The Klk'k vocal machine's ability to "correct pronunciation as you speak" is similar to, but notably faster reaction time than, modern software's ability to "correct spelling as you type." So while I have to be very precise in removing the unwanted sounds, it might be realistic for the artificial sounds to come in a bit late.

* Compared to the processor power required to correct pronunciation in real time, wouldn't it be relatively easy for the Klk'k vocal aid to be configured to sound like its user's voice? If so, all I have to do is remove the sound then put it right back in, perhaps a bit late (per the point above) and perhaps without the "echo" effect I was using to represent the organic Klk'k vocal physiology.

So...I think I need to start over, again. This time I will:

1. Give the aliens a strongly enunciated voice with a slow cadence. This will help with removing unwanted sounds and help the listener understand that human speech is their second language. Of course, I also must change to a completely different voice, so they don't sound like the Coneheads (they already do a bit, and enunciating would enhance that).

2. Use fade out/in to remove unwanted sounds.

3. Reinsert the sounds in a separate track, and perhaps give it a subtle mechanical quality via a number of means.

4. Apply the echo effect to the organic component to replicate the multi-vocal quality.

I'll give it a try and post the result in a day or three.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by CLoneWolf »

Turbo wrote:Maybe instead of trying to mute the unwanted sounds in the original voice recordings, I can fade them in and out. That would make the result more tolerant of the timing issues resulting from the tendency of normal speech to slur one sound into the next.
Totally agreed. By muffling I didn't mean total muting but exactly that.
Turbo wrote:Also, two other points occur to me:

* The Klk'k vocal machine's ability to "correct pronunciation as you speak" is similar to, but notably faster reaction time than, modern software's ability to "correct spelling as you type." So while I have to be very precise in removing the unwanted sounds, it might be realistic for the artificial sounds to come in a bit late.
Sure, it would help noticing the presence of the assistant. I'm too thinking a slightly slower talking speed would help all the surgery, leaving a little more room for fades and delays, just as you say below.
Turbo wrote:* Compared to the processor power required to correct pronunciation in real time, wouldn't it be relatively easy for the Klk'k vocal aid to be configured to sound like its user's voice? If so, all I have to do is remove the sound then put it right back in, perhaps a bit late (per the point above) and perhaps without the "echo" effect I was using to represent the organic Klk'k vocal physiology.
Sure it would, the only concern is that, given the short length of assistant interventions, and its mimic qualities, it'd go unnoticed; again, the idea of a slower cadence will help.
Turbo wrote:So...I think I need to start over, again. This time I will:
[...]
3. Reinsert the sounds in a separate track, and perhaps give it a subtle mechanical quality via a number of means.

4. Apply the echo effect to the organic component to replicate the multi-vocal quality.
I was thinking that to us regular humans, their natural multi-vocal quality sounds already mechanical, so maybe, the assistant could be made to sound natural for us humans, using the original sounds you recorded before going multi; after all their purpose is to be understood by us :mrgreen:

On a side note, on multi-track recorders, I've found Traverso very easy to use (I used it for "Another Day In Vegastrike"); you can easily change all the fades and clip timings without losing previous editing steps as you would in Audacity, as the fades are applied in real time.
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Turbo »

After being gone a number of months and coming backto read this, my reaction is, "Wow, I put way too much thinking into this." :?

So here are two possible "styles," each 30 seconds of the same voice lines but without fooling with the consonants. The theory here is it sounds plenty alien without the large amouts of work it takes to alter the consonants. I'd rather say the translation-aid device is that good and get another voice set done, instead of spending the sound-development equivalent of the many man-hours others have spent arguing how shields work.

First, here is the reverse-delay effect I used earlier, which sounds alien but someone said was a bit mechanical:
http://www.willadsenfamily.org/VSvoice/ ... -delay.ogg

Second, here the same lines but this time I used the stereo channels to create the multivocal effect. I copied the voice to 2 tracks, then delayed the second and changed its pitch, then moved the 2 tracks into stereo channels. The file size is about double but the result is more echo-like:
http://www.willadsenfamily.org/VSvoice/ ... effect.ogg

Which do you like, or if neither, what might we do to get a multi-mouth effect? I already recorded the full voice set, so once we get consensus on which style is closest to how you all imagined the Klk'k might sound, I can apply the chosen effect and finish production quickly.

One other question for feedback: one of the voice lines in the XML (accompanied by a reduction in relationship, but no other explanation) reads, "*hit*". To me that make little sense. Since the Klk'k make everything into a joke, I recorded it as "Hit...you sunk my battleship!" I figure if JackS doesn't like it, we can edit it down to "hit."

P.S: I tried Traverso, and it likes to crash Win7-64, so I'm back with Audacity until I have more time to work with it.

P.P.S: Now might be a good time to mention that we still have many factions left to record, and new voices would be nice. :mrgreen:
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/ ... Voice_List
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Re: Brainstorm: Klk'k voices/language

Post by Deus Siddis »

Wasn't it the Rlaan though that you wanted to use the multi-voice effect on? Maybe something like a tremolo effect is more what you are looking for (in a one-mouth species) to give it more character.

Some simple pitch adjustment may (or may not) help create a different feel for them. For example if they are smaller than humans, their voice might carry a higher pitch.

You could also experiment with some sort of aquatic sound effect, bubbling or splashing, mixed in some subtle way since this is a semi aquatic species. Though such might fit the Dgn/Shmrn species much better.
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