sound effects

For collaboration between the different artists creating music and sound for vegastrike.
rivalin
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:16 pm

sound effects

Post by rivalin »

Hello all, long time no see (university, as always). As sound seems to be the only area around here with even a modicum of activity of late, I was trying to think of some ways to help (not being much of a musician or sound engineer), and I came up with a thing or two.

1. Do we have a list of every sound effect in the game, and every sound effect still needed? Seems like it might be a good idea for people to have an idea of exactly what needs doing. What would also probably help would be a key stating the file names for each sound effect and what effect they are actually for. Apologies if this is already done.

2. Someone mentioned engine/ship noise in the other thread and it being not needed. To be honest I think it's fairly vital, playing VS now is a bit, well, weird; it feels like rotating a camera viewport, you don't feel like you're inside a massive spaceship. I think a quiet low thrum in the background would help (in conjunction with turning down the music which is massively too loud compared to the other effects) to improve the atmosphere a lot. I heard the engine sound in the other thread so I had a crack at making my own; I'm sure someone else can do better, but it's a start.

(ps remember they sound better as quiet background noise, so listening to them on full volume probably won't give you a good impression of them)

http://www.box.net/shared/j1khtz02a4

http://www.box.net/shared/f1s09ah3bh
loki1950
The Shepherd
Posts: 5841
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:37 pm
Location: Ottawa
Contact:

Re: sound effects

Post by loki1950 »

Not bad lad :) nice rumble the number 2 version seems better.BTW getting that list of sounds together is a good idea don't know if one is about if there is I have not seen it :wink: so if you feel like you have the time,go for it.

Enjoy the Choice :)
my box::HP Envy i5-6400 @2Q70GHzx4 8 Gb ram/1 Tb(Win10 64)/3 Tb Mint 19.2/GTX745 4Gb acer S243HL K222HQL
Q8200/Asus P5QDLX/8 Gb ram/WD 2Tb 2-500 G HD/GF GT640 2Gb Mint 17.3 64 bit Win 10 32 bit acer and Lenovo ideapad 320-15ARB Win 10/Mint 19.2
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: sound effects

Post by Deus Siddis »

rivalin wrote:(ps remember they sound better as quiet background noise, so listening to them on full volume probably won't give you a good impression of them)
Before deciding how loud and pronounced the thruster sounds are, you might want to play around in game in 3rd person view and make notes on how often and for how long your ship is actually firing its engines for. It might be less often than you'd think, in which case it might actually make more sense for them to produce a medium volume of sound. Of course there's also the retro and lateral thrusters which you can't yet see firing in-game (though almost certainly will in the future), but you could make them significantly quieter than the mains.

Like:

Main thrusters- 100% volume.
Retro thrusters- 50% volume.
Lateral thrusters- 25% volume.

And whatever you do, make sure you make variants for the thruster technologies of say the four main species- Rlaan, Human, Aera and Uln. Especially the Rlaan- you'll need to get creative with them since they propel themselves without using any thusters; instead they have engines based on 'gravitics' technology.
pyramid
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 988
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:02 am
Location: Somewhere in the vastness of space
Contact:

Re: sound effects

Post by pyramid »

rivalin wrote:Do we have a list of every sound effect in the game, and every sound effect still needed?
There is a poor Development:Audio section in the wiki, which seems a good starting place to create such a list.
travists
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:43 pm
Location: Sol III North American Continent

Re: sound effects

Post by travists »

Hi guys!! I know I'm all over the place, but that's how my mind works. I've looked around in the config for some of the sounds and noticed something. There is an autopilot engaged/disengaged flag that doesn't work. As this is not so much a bug as something that is not fully implemented I was wondering when that might be online. In the pasts I have been able to fake a SPEC engaged/disengaged through the auto avalible/unavalible that does work. As far as the sounds for them I have two Cepstral licenses, a male and female, so could easily do text-to-speech computer voices. That's assuming one of the big holdups is lack of sfx. Sorry if this doesn't quiet fit, but seemed along the same lines as it involves work left to do on sound effects.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Re: sound effects

Post by klauss »

@travists: I intend to work on all those missing features when I amass some free time to get back to integrating the new sound system in VS.

We'll also need a lot of audio content, but luckily there, I can pull my own weight in that area :D
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
travists
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:43 pm
Location: Sol III North American Continent

Re: sound effects

Post by travists »

Good to know! I'll wait with baited breath. Really! With the long transit times in some of the larger ships, an "Autopilot disengaged" works well. (I know this cause just spec disengaged is handy) For anyone interested that can't wait, the autopilot available/unavailable does work. When spec goes on auto become unavailable, so set auto unavailable flag in config to the spec engaged sound of your choice. Vice versa, of course.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: sound effects

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote:We'll also need a lot of audio content, but luckily there, I can pull my own weight in that area :D
If you create high quality weapon firing, weapon impact and engine SFX, you'll become the best loved content creator. :D

That alone = immersiveness * 10
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Re: sound effects

Post by klauss »

I had a neat shield-hit WIP, but I think I lost it in an informatic conflagration.

But I can try to re-create it.

I need canon on shield and weapon systems, though, and I seem to have misplaced that. There was a TXT out there, in SVN I think, or the wiki, but I can't find it :(
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: sound effects

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: I need canon on shield and weapon systems, though, and I seem to have misplaced that. There was a TXT out there, in SVN I think, or the wiki, but I can't find it :(
It's in the universe document you download on the secret forum (but is too big for me to PM to you I'm afraid.) I quoted only the relevant section back in This Post.

Like I said back then though, I think we should really re-consider the use of electro-gravitic space warping. That is, it seems like such unlikely, corny science fantasy. And it fills no gameplay role that couldn't be filled through more realistic and even original explanations.

Ball lightning on the other hand is not fantasy and does fill a special gameplay role. It is science we should take better advantage of for many of the weapons (and defenses) explanations.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Re: sound effects

Post by klauss »

Yay!!! You found it :D

So... universe doc? I must have skimmed it 50 times looking for the "on weapons and shield" stuff.
:roll:
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
travists
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:43 pm
Location: Sol III North American Continent

Re: sound effects

Post by travists »

Deus Siddis wrote:Like I said back then though, I think we should really re-consider the use of electro-gravitic space warping. That is, it seems like such unlikely, corny science fantasy. And it fills no gameplay role that couldn't be filled through more realistic and even original explanations.
Actually, the electro-magnetic force and the gravitational force have been united. That is to say that physicists have linked them under certain circumstances mathematically on the way to a Grand Unified Theory. I do agree however, that it is more likely to be in artificial gravity setups and tractor beams than propulsion. Then again with a millennia or more of scientific advancement, magical things can be used. It was a sci-fi author, I think, that stated something like any sufficiently advanced technology would seem like magic to the base line culture. Magneto-gravonic sounds cooler to me. I'm rambling...

Use what tech you will, just keep it plausible, internally consistent, and focused. Remember KITT's micro-jammer on the original "Knight Rider"? That thing eventually did everything. A whatever-grav unit can make and direct gravitational fields, not pop popcorn.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: sound effects

Post by Deus Siddis »

travists wrote:Actually, the electro-magnetic force and the gravitational force have been united. That is to say that physicists have linked them under certain circumstances mathematically on the way to a Grand Unified Theory. I do agree however, that it is more likely to be in artificial gravity setups and tractor beams than propulsion.
Even if reasonable evidence does ultimately turn up which shows there's a real (not just theoretical) connection between these two things, how practical or efficient can it really be to use? If they have put enormous energy into these experiments and only seen questionably minor anomalies, then if those even are something, it is very little of something.

And that doesn't usually cut it with weapons, defenses or propulsion when there are alternatives that get you much better bang for your buck.
Then again with a millennia or more of scientific advancement, magical things can be used. It was a sci-fi author, I think, that stated something like any sufficiently advanced technology would seem like magic to the base line culture.
Thus there is no aesthetic reason to use actual magic in a science fiction game. Charged particles, photons, fusion energy, nanotechology, a dash of antimatter and then the (necessary) magical FTL, why isn't this enough? What's the advantage in using what are at best very weak forces to create unnecessary fantasy explanations for your gameplay mechanics?
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Re: sound effects

Post by klauss »

Anyway, my point on needing canon for making sounds was that canon lets me theorize how weapon hits of various kinds produce sound.

After the recent pictures from the ISS released by nasa, I feel renewed confidence in the methodology of letting math and physical accuracy guide my artistic efforts.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
travists
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:43 pm
Location: Sol III North American Continent

Re: sound effects

Post by travists »

I take it then, Deus Siddis that the only gravity on bases is from rotation, and there are no tractor beams? Gravitational propulsion is theoretically possible, assuming you have the capacity to generate the necessary fields. I'm not saying anything goes, exactly. But there is no reason to discount gravity modification entirely. Just that it is limited in capabilities. There needs to be discussions like this, though, as the key to proper suspension of disbelief is internal consistency. Can, in this universe, gravity be modified? If so, then through what means, and to what effect? I think artificial gravity, tractor beams, and G compensators are likely to be had by a space faring race, if there is any way possible. Please understand, I'm not trying to be confrontational. Just want to ascertain what tech is in and what tech is out. Given our present understanding of physics, 98% of the whole game is a no-no. Gravity as a weapon, to me, is unlikely. A force of at best 10 G’s might be produced. Far from what would be needed to pull a ship apart. Gravity as propulsion? Well, present physics does allow for travel if you can contract space in front of you, and expand it behind you. Needs to be negative energy to bring the energy needed to possible levels, and even then you need the output of a small star! It is not clear if the effect is FTL or not, but many think it is. (But then, many think it may not even work!) You don’t like grav mod, fair enough. What charged particles would you use to handle the effects of long-term space travel? A seemingly pointless thing as can’t create gravity fields can have wide reaching effects on the look and operation of the game. If it is a flat no, then all non-planetary bases need handrails to get around, or need a large rotating wheel. If limited, then what is the limit? If unlimited…. Well let’s just say that if you fluctuate the beam just so, you can pop popcorn.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: sound effects

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote:Anyway, my point on needing canon for making sounds was that canon lets me theorize how weapon hits of various kinds produce sound.
I know, my evil plan was to dissuade you from spending much time on "shield hit" or "space disruptor" sound effects. :wink:

BTW, do you think near misses could be audible from particle emitting weapons like missiles and charged particle weapons (but not lasers and railguns by contrast)? The idea being that your ship is getting enough of a bombardment from their highspeed "wake" that you can hear it from inside the cockpit.
Very cool.
travists wrote:I take it then, Deus Siddis that the only gravity on bases is from rotation,
No, holding a reasonable number of human beings to a floor, on a large station where resources are more plentiful, is not insane. Just as long as your medical technology can counter act all of the cancer it will be giving you in just a few years.

Centrifugal 'force' is not an inferior option though. It is probably better for long term habitation, as long as the diameter is great enough.

Artificial gravity doesn't require sound effects though and it doesn't yet (coughwalkablebasescough) affect gameplay.
and there are no tractor beams?
This however is insane, and so is gravitic shields, engines and weapons. Best case scenario: lots of power consumption, lots of waste heat, pathetic output.

Using cables, winches, electromagnetic or clamping interfaces, etc., conventional stuff in other words, is all you need. Magic not necessary here.
travists
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:43 pm
Location: Sol III North American Continent

Re: sound effects

Post by travists »

Deus Siddis wrote: Artificial gravity doesn't require sound effects though and it doesn't yet (coughwalkablebasescough) affect gameplay.
and there are no tractor beams?
This however is insane, and so is gravitic shields, engines and weapons. Best case scenario: lots of power consumption, lots of waste heat, pathetic output.

Using cables, winches, electromagnetic or clamping interfaces, etc., conventional stuff in other words, is all you need. Magic not necessary here.
Game play, no; artwork yes. The pirates aren’t going to be happy with you. But at least I know what your thinking is. Now a winch is an interesting thought for cargo retrieval; pain in the neck to implement, but interesting. Is this stance the official one, or just yours?

@klauss Real science has little bearing on the sounds. Your goal is admirable, but in space there is no sound. Your own sounds, might be carried through the ships hull and so could hear some of them. In that regard, gunfire will be similar to machine gun, missile pods, and a camera flash. (kinetic kill rounds, self propelled rounds/missiles, particle) However, The sensor system can likely recognize the various energy spikes by the different guns (The most basic one can read the shield levels and recognize targets) and then reproduce the sounds required. As such, each weapon tech should have a distinctive sound with the pilots need to know what is going on as the guiding principle. So, yes use science where you can, but a laser beam hitting a plasma field, in an atmosphere makes no sound firing, and very little hitting. Not very cool for game play.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: sound effects

Post by Deus Siddis »

travists wrote: Game play, no; artwork yes.
No it is not necessary for the artwork either. Such things have been implemented in visually effective ways in even much older games with limited hardware.
Is this stance the official one, or just yours?
At the moment I don't believe the issue is fully decided.
So, yes use science where you can, but a laser beam hitting a plasma field, in an atmosphere makes no sound firing, and very little hitting. Not very cool for game play.
Even if that were true (how many lasers have you been around that could cut through a tank at several kilometers?), are silenced weapons not used in shooters because they are not very cool for game play?

Lasers only represent maybe 20% of the game's arsenal, it is no disadvantage for them to be different. For example, if they made no visible beams through space (realistic) it could very well be balanced to be an advantage to both game play and aesthetics. In real life, you don't need to be shooting tracer rounds to use a firearm. The same is true here.

But they will still make noise on both ends. On the firing end- electrical buzzes, coolant pumping, perhaps some kind of lens guard rapidly opening and then closing. On the victim end- the sound of your hull being vaporized, cut through, perhaps warping from the rapid localized heat increase.
travists
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:43 pm
Location: Sol III North American Continent

Re: sound effects

Post by travists »

Don't forget the capacitor charge/discharge sound for the firing ship! Those sounds, however are either diminished through hull transfer, or nonexistent due to no atmosphere. They also would hold true, and be mostly the same, for every energy/partial weapon. Hull hits and shield hits should have different sounds. Ever here the sound made when you push on the field around someone touching a van de graph generator? I suspect shields being hit would be similar; though louder, deeper, and all together more ominous. While silenced weapons don't detract from a FPS if every weapon was, it may. Again, in space combat, weapon sounds would be more for situational awareness than actual sounds made. Perhaps weapons fire has three associated sounds: the shooting sound (for the shooter), the hitting sound, and the artificial "bang-whiz" so you know what is going on.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Re: sound effects

Post by klauss »

travists wrote:@klauss Real science has little bearing on the sounds. Your goal is admirable, but in space there is no sound. Your own sounds, might be carried through the ships hull and so could hear some of them. In that regard, gunfire will be similar to machine gun, missile pods, and a camera flash. (kinetic kill rounds, self propelled rounds/missiles, particle) However, The sensor system can likely recognize the various energy spikes by the different guns (The most basic one can read the shield levels and recognize targets) and then reproduce the sounds required. As such, each weapon tech should have a distinctive sound with the pilots need to know what is going on as the guiding principle. So, yes use science where you can, but a laser beam hitting a plasma field, in an atmosphere makes no sound firing, and very little hitting. Not very cool for game play.
That's tremendously un-true.

There's sound in space. There's the sound of what happens to you and your surroundings.

Sound is vibration, and if any kind of energy is able to damage your ship, it will have the ability to make it vibrate. Even sunlight creates sound, when it heats up parts of your ship while others get cooler, the ship will expand and contract, contort, and crackle. Subtly, sure, but it creates sound.

My aim is to create a believable sound environment for space under such circumstances, try to make an interesting gameplay out of it, and, as was mentioned in preceding posts, if that isn't enough I still have the option to resort to synthesized situational-awareness sounds.

The soundscape is, however, incredibly rich. A weapon impacting the hull of a small fighter will produce a vibration on the ship's skin that will propagate with little impediment to the cockpit where the player is, while the same hit applying to a huge capship will propagate entirely different. I expect that richness to be enough for interesting gameplay.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
travists
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:43 pm
Location: Sol III North American Continent

Re: sound effects

Post by travists »

I understand your point. Mine is more you can't hear the weapon when it is fired, except perhaps for yours. When it hits, there may well be a sound. And as you indecate, where the hit is in relation to the pilot would be a large factor. Yes sound is a vibration, and in space partical desity is too low for anything most would concider sound to propigate. (ship to ship wise) your soundscape sounds (ha ha) like a very interesting tack.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: sound effects

Post by Deus Siddis »

travists wrote:I understand your point. Mine is more you can't hear the weapon when it is fired, except perhaps for yours.
It isn't any different in flight simulators.
travists
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:43 pm
Location: Sol III North American Continent

Re: sound effects

Post by travists »

I see many late nights and heated discussions for you and the rest of the core team hammering out such details. Hearing weapons fire is cool, and featured in most space combat simulators, but not my call. Heck, I avoid all the fights I can. After playing the original privateer countless times, and all but prophecy of the rest of the WC series, making a fortune with a kill score of zero is a new challenge. A rather enjoyable one too. I'd just hate for Klauss to make the coolest cannon firing sound ever, only for it to be decided that all that is ever heard is background noise. Have fun; I'm going back to my corner until another comment perks my interest.
travists
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:43 pm
Location: Sol III North American Continent

Re: sound effects

Post by travists »

Deus Siddis, if your still monitoring this thread I did a little digging. I could have sworn that I read about Gravity-electromagnetic unification, but can’t find it. In amongst the junk science sites, I found some gems. Might help in the "keep it grounded in real science" quest.

G and EM link exists:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/techn ... vstat.html
- Sadly NASA has pulled the plug on these projects as current understanding is not up to the task, and so limited resources must be funneled elsewhere.

G and EM link is unknown:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum ... ;boardseen
-Interesting discussion, but little decision.

A new wrinkle:
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/daigl024/discus ... vit_1.html
-Now metamaterials that bend space-time producing effects nearly identical to gravity; that has possibilities. Would allow for grav-plating, and possibly FTL equivalency[*][/i] travel, while still having a foot in present knowledge.
I wish it were easier to separate the actual research in the related fields from the nut jobs. After all, NASA had a whole research arm looking into FTL and artificial gravity. There are real theories about such things; we just don’t have the power to test them.

Anyway, the mood just struck me to do some digging on the subject. Use it, argue with it, or ignore it, whatever.

*Most people, including many scientists, can’t seem to get past the “use a bigger rocket” mentality, when what is needed is a completely different concept of propulsion.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: sound effects

Post by Deus Siddis »

travists wrote:After all, NASA had a whole research arm looking into FTL and artificial gravity.
I know, but their conclusion on everything they tested was essentially "we don't know, but very probably not possible".
There are real theories about such things; we just don’t have the power to test them.
And again that's a big problem in itself. There is no sense in using outrageously power hungry and inefficient devices for basic things like ship to ship weapons and defenses or cables and winches.

Only the explanation for the necessary-for-game-play FTL technology (SPEC and JUMP) needs to use really far out technology like that. And to preserve both realism and game play, said technology even consumes basically everything your ship can output while using SPEC and JUMP exploits a rare phenomenon not actually created by your ship (and thus not such a burden to it).
*Most people, including many scientists, can’t seem to get past the “use a bigger rocket” mentality, when what is needed is a completely different concept of propulsion.
I don't think you are really considering that maybe they are not getting past it because there probably is nothing past it.

And that can work for us because we don't need a flavor of the decade reactionless drive. We just need to augment our normal reaction drive (via SPEC) and skip over a lot of space (via JUMP).

In short we don't need unlikely theoretical forms of propulsion, defenses, weapons, towing, artificial gravity. . . all we ever needed was to dramatically cut down on travel time with a dash of the theoretical.
Post Reply