Atlantis makeover

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klauss
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Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

Hey guys...

A few days ago I committed a "makeover" of the Atlantis planet. Actually, of earth too. But I doubt many will get to see earth.

I would love some artistic feedback on the new looks - sadly, only linux people will get to see this for now, it needs changes to the engine that are only available in source form in SVN ATM. But once it all gets stable enough, I'll try to get an updated windows binary rolling.

Of course, bugs and performance issue reports are welcome just as well, but please post them on a separate thread. In here I'd like to keep it artsy, because once the looks are well defined and stable, I'd replicate this all over VS.

PS: The various shader settings do affect the looks, feel free to play with it.

PS2.0: I'm currently working on gas giants, BTW. Once I have all the versions for all the hardware profiles I'll post about that as well. Gas giants are HARD.

PS3.0: I'm at an artistic impass with rocky planets. Anyone wants to mock up how it should look like? I have absolutely no idea... I could go the realistic route, but I'd like some artistic guidance.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by charlieg »

You could post screenshots... ;)
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

I could. I have (of earth). But some things have to be seen in person - still shots only make it so far.

And screenshots don't test hardware compatibility either.

Image

Image

Image

I'll post more of Atlantis later today.

(btw: the shader improved quite a bit since those screenshots above)
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

Ok, for more shots, visit the gallery

First time I used the gallery :D
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by segfault »

I am loving the new look of Atlantis, spent some time just orbiting in game and looking at it. Frik'n awesome.
Noticed something with the shader though I think and your screen shot maybe confirms something may be amiss.
(Will try and get another screeny tonight)

Concerning hardware issues: do they deserve seperate bug reports? As soon as beautiful Atlantis 2.0 comes into view my framerate bottoms out to 2-4. Curious if anyone else is seeing this or if it is another product of me running FreeBSD.

Nice artwork Klauss.[attachment=0]ShaderMiss.JPG[/attachment]
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by Deus Siddis »

I'm one of the windows folks, but comparing these screenshots to some of the NASA orbital photography, my guess is the saturation and contrast is too uniformly low at these settings, though I'm not sure exactly how.

It might be that the atmospheric scattering should realistically be set less when looking directly "down" at the planet versus near the edges, than is depicted in your screenshots.

Or it could be that the scattering is too high near the twilight.

Or because the clouds aren't casting shadows (with shadows adding more contrast to the scene).

Look at the NASA gallery here: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/iotd.html

Image #74 ---------------------- Shows strong twilight gradient contrast.
Image #76 and #105 ----------- Show strong cloud shadow casting.
Image #79, #102 and #109 ---- Shows stronger contrast in atmospheric scattering (I think).


As for rocky planets I'd say go the realistic route as well.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

segfault wrote:I am loving the new look of Atlantis, spent some time just orbiting in game and looking at it. Frik'n awesome.
:D
segfault wrote:Noticed something with the shader though I think and your screen shot maybe confirms something may be amiss.
(Will try and get another screeny tonight)
I believe you're referring to the discontinuity of the upper atmosphere against the ground.
I found no easy way to fix that.

Ideally, the shader would compute the exact distance to the ground and shader accordingly - in practice, the upper atmosphere is rendered in a previous pass and doesn't have access to ground level. It does have a lookup table that lets it guesstimate the ground level, though, so I'm not sure if the discontinuity is realistic (a shadow would hide it somewhat in reality) or not.

I couldn't find any shots at those angles to confirm.
segfault wrote:Concerning hardware issues: do they deserve seperate bug reports?
I expect several, and I wanted to follow each separately.
segfault wrote:As soon as beautiful Atlantis 2.0 comes into view my framerate bottoms out to 2-4. Curious if anyone else is seeing this or if it is another product of me running FreeBSD.
What are your GPU specs?
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:I'm one of the windows folks, but comparing these screenshots to some of the NASA orbital photography, my guess is the saturation and contrast is too uniformly low at these settings, though I'm not sure exactly how.
I've seen mixed results from NASA photography.
I believe they maximize contrast with postproduction, because I've seen both low and high-contrast pictures.
Deus Siddis wrote:It might be that the atmospheric scattering should realistically be set less when looking directly "down" at the planet versus near the edges, than is depicted in your screenshots.

Or it could be that the scattering is too high near the twilight.
My thinking is: if looking up into space from the ground, the sky looks blue. That means the air looks blue. Why wouldn't it look blue while looking up from space into the ground? Perhaps there's a reason, I don't know, I couldn't find one. So I made the ground look bluish ;)

But it's quite configurable... I could try to lower scattering factor a bit.

Deus Siddis wrote:Or because the clouds aren't casting shadows (with shadows adding more contrast to the scene).
Sweet sacrilege!

They ARE casting shadows, I spent MONTHS making them cast shadows ;)

I bet it's the exaggerated (or realistic?) atmospheric scattering that hides shadows a bit - since the dark shadow would look about as blue as the sea below. If I reduce scattering they would become more prominent.
Deus Siddis wrote:Look at the NASA gallery here: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/iotd.html

Image #74 ---------------------- Shows strong twilight gradient contrast.
Image #76 and #105 ----------- Show strong cloud shadow casting.
Image #79, #102 and #109 ---- Shows stronger contrast in atmospheric scattering (I think).
Image #74: I think the shader's gradient is similar... isn't it?
Image #76: I saw that picture, in fact I calibrated cloud shadows with those pictures in mind. Trouble is, our cloud map isn't nearly as high res as it would have to be to produce such sharp clouds (and shadows). And it's already at 8 megapixels.
Image #105: Interesting to notice the height of clouds... I actually computed the cloud level to maintain a relative height of 3km (which is where real clouds start). It may be that higher clouds dominate space views, because those look a lot higher than 3km.
Image #79, #102, #109: I'd attribute that to color correction. Otherwise, it doesn't stand in comparison with the other pictures.

VS would get a similar color-correction effect whenever we implement HDR. Only the engine doesn't support HDR techniques yet.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by Deus Siddis »

My question is how much of it is NASA using post production versus different cameras / camera settings to get those different results.

Or more importantly of course, what do those views look like to human eyes with their own dynamic adaptability (which perhaps HDRI is meant to simulate?)

To human eyes on the ground, there is a big difference between the color/shade of the horizon and the sky directly above you, even though both are ultimately looking into the blackness of space. Because if nothing else, you are looking through much more atmosphere at a shallow angle then a steep one with the shortest distance to space. I can see you are already accounting for this, I just can't tell if it is strong enough or not to be realistic.

Also do you know if the color and saturation level on the scattering effect is right? I thought rayleigh scattering usually produced a somewhat more saturated blue? It's hard to tell either but looking at the clear sky from the ground it seems more saturated.

You said shot #76 is what you based your settings on, but couldn't this shot have been post processed as well? The darkside of the shuttle and payload in that pic looks nowhere near as dark as it should, given it is sitting in space with no atmospheric scattering on it, just strong very hard light from the sun as the primary light source. I'd expect to see much stronger shadows on those foreground objects if this was an unprocessed image.


Regarding clouds, doubling their altitude might make sense. That should increase the distance between them and their shadows, so you see more of the shadows. The higher altitude also makes the clouds themselves less blue and more white since they'll be in lower density layers of the atmosphere. That could help them stand out better against the more heavily scattered light from the surface. BTW, can the the peaks of the clouds cast shadows on the lower parts of the cloud layer?
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:My question is how much of it is NASA using post production versus different cameras / camera settings to get those different results.

Or more importantly of course, what do those views look like to human eyes with their own dynamic adaptability (which perhaps HDRI is meant to simulate?)

To human eyes on the ground, there is a big difference between the color/shade of the horizon and the sky directly above you, even though both are ultimately looking into the blackness of space. Because if nothing else, you are looking through much more atmosphere at a shallow angle then a steep one with the shortest distance to space. I can see you are already accounting for this, I just can't tell if it is strong enough or not to be realistic.
Good points. Hard to answer without asking a real astronaut ;)
Deus Siddis wrote:Also do you know if the color and saturation level on the scattering effect is right? I thought rayleigh scattering usually produced a somewhat more saturated blue? It's hard to tell either but looking at the clear sky from the ground it seems more saturated.
There's a formula somewhere, but I just used a color picker off an earth from space shot. But you're right... it should be a tad more saturated. I'll look into the matter. In fact, now that I think of it, I think I know the problem: the color picker works in sRGB space, and the shader takes linear RGB. That would indeed desaturate the color :)
Deus Siddis wrote:You said shot #76 is what you based your settings on, but couldn't this shot have been post processed as well? The darkside of the shuttle and payload in that pic looks nowhere near as dark as it should, given it is sitting in space with no atmospheric scattering on it, just strong very hard light from the sun as the primary light source. I'd expect to see much stronger shadows on those foreground objects if this was an unprocessed image.
I bet it's processed, but not sure it's much so. The effect is expected, there must be strong radiosity and caustics from the station, both visible and out-of-frame parts of it, and from earth itself which does cast a light on objects in space. Besides, remember the shuttle itself is painted of a radiant white.
Deus Siddis wrote:Regarding clouds, doubling their altitude might make sense. That should increase the distance between them and their shadows, so you see more of the shadows. The higher altitude also makes the clouds themselves less blue and more white since they'll be in lower density layers of the atmosphere. That could help them stand out better against the more heavily scattered light from the surface.
Another parameter to tinker with.
Deus Siddis wrote:BTW, can the the peaks of the clouds cast shadows on the lower parts of the cloud layer?
They do - but, as I mentioned, the cloud map's (and the shader's raytracing through it) resolution isn't high enough to produce sharp shadows.
If I modify the parameters to cast sharp shadows, they look wrong exactly because of that. But if you inspect the many shots you'll notice how clouds do cast shadows on other clouds or themselves.

I plan to make the shadows a lot better defined once I manage to produce a parametric procedural surface. Ie: a fractal representation of the clouds, which would provide the missing resolution. For now, the only thing adding detail to the cloud map is a simple low-order perlin noise function.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

Ok, hope you like the shadows now: Shadows enhanced

Sadly, the lower profiles couldn't get better shadow contrast. Without anisotropic filtering, they look like crap. Like ghosts rather than shadows, and I couldn't get shader-controlled anisotropic filtering in anything less than a ps3.0 profile.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by Deus Siddis »

That's a fantastic improvement. I can really feel the depth now as it "lifts" the cloud layer away from the surface.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by segfault »

Nicely done.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

@segfault: and what would that be?

Could you paste the output from glxinfo?
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by segfault »

Graphics card is an onboard GeForce 6150SE- nForce 430 (512MB)

glxinfo yields the following (Did someone turn off the BBCode and smilies options for this subforum? They do not show in here only):
[code]
name of display: :0.0
display: :0 screen: 0
direct rendering: Yes
server glx vendor string: NVIDIA Corporation
server glx version string: 1.4
server glx extensions:
GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig,
GLX_SGIX_pbuffer, GLX_SGI_video_sync, GLX_SGI_swap_control,
GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap, GLX_ARB_create_context, GLX_ARB_multisample,
GLX_NV_float_buffer, GLX_ARB_fbconfig_float
client glx vendor string: NVIDIA Corporation
client glx version string: 1.4
client glx extensions:
GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_visual_info,
GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_SGI_video_sync,
GLX_NV_swap_group, GLX_NV_video_out, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_pbuffer,
GLX_SGI_swap_control, GLX_ARB_create_context, GLX_NV_float_buffer,
GLX_ARB_fbconfig_float, GLX_EXT_fbconfig_packed_float,
GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap, GLX_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB,
GLX_NV_present_video, GLX_NV_multisample_coverage
GLX version: 1.3
GLX extensions:
GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig,
GLX_SGIX_pbuffer, GLX_SGI_video_sync, GLX_SGI_swap_control,
GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap, GLX_ARB_create_context, GLX_ARB_multisample,
GLX_NV_float_buffer, GLX_ARB_fbconfig_float, GLX_ARB_get_proc_address
OpenGL vendor string: NVIDIA Corporation
OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 6150SE nForce 430/PCI/SSE2/3DNOW!
OpenGL version string: 2.1.2 NVIDIA 185.18.29
OpenGL shading language version string: 1.20 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
OpenGL extensions:
GL_ARB_color_buffer_float, GL_ARB_depth_texture, GL_ARB_draw_buffers,
GL_ARB_fragment_program, GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow,
GL_ARB_fragment_shader, GL_ARB_half_float_pixel, GL_ARB_half_float_vertex,
GL_ARB_framebuffer_object, GL_ARB_imaging, GL_ARB_map_buffer_range,
GL_ARB_multisample, GL_ARB_multitexture, GL_ARB_occlusion_query,
GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object, GL_ARB_point_parameters, GL_ARB_point_sprite,
GL_ARB_shadow, GL_ARB_shader_objects, GL_ARB_shading_language_100,
GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp, GL_ARB_texture_compression,
GL_ARB_texture_cube_map, GL_ARB_texture_env_add,
GL_ARB_texture_env_combine, GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3, GL_ARB_texture_float,
GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat, GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two,
GL_ARB_texture_rectangle, GL_ARB_transpose_matrix,
GL_ARB_vertex_array_object, GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object,
GL_ARB_vertex_program, GL_ARB_vertex_shader, GL_ARB_window_pos,
GL_ATI_draw_buffers, GL_ATI_texture_float, GL_ATI_texture_mirror_once,
GL_S3_s3tc, GL_EXT_texture_env_add, GL_EXT_abgr, GL_EXT_bgra,
GL_EXT_blend_color, GL_EXT_blend_equation_separate,
GL_EXT_blend_func_separate, GL_EXT_blend_minmax, GL_EXT_blend_subtract,
GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array, GL_EXT_Cg_shader, GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test,
GL_EXT_direct_state_access, GL_EXT_draw_range_elements, GL_EXT_fog_coord,
GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit, GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample,
GL_EXT_framebuffer_object, GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters,
GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays, GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil,
GL_EXT_packed_pixels, GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object, GL_EXT_point_parameters,
GL_EXT_provoking_vertex, GL_EXT_rescale_normal, GL_EXT_secondary_color,
GL_EXT_separate_specular_color, GL_EXT_shadow_funcs,
GL_EXT_stencil_two_side, GL_EXT_stencil_wrap, GL_EXT_texture3D,
GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc, GL_EXT_texture_cube_map,
GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp, GL_EXT_texture_env_combine,
GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3, GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic,
GL_EXT_texture_lod, GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias, GL_EXT_texture_mirror_clamp,
GL_EXT_texture_object, GL_EXT_texture_sRGB, GL_EXT_texture_swizzle,
GL_EXT_timer_query, GL_EXT_vertex_array, GL_EXT_vertex_array_bgra,
GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip, GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat,
GL_KTX_buffer_region, GL_NV_blend_square, GL_NV_copy_depth_to_color,
GL_NV_depth_clamp, GL_NV_fence, GL_NV_float_buffer, GL_NV_fog_distance,
GL_NV_fragment_program, GL_NV_fragment_program_option,
GL_NV_fragment_program2, GL_NV_framebuffer_multisample_coverage,
GL_NV_half_float, GL_NV_light_max_exponent, GL_NV_multisample_filter_hint,
GL_NV_occlusion_query, GL_NV_packed_depth_stencil, GL_NV_pixel_data_range,
GL_NV_point_sprite, GL_NV_primitive_restart, GL_NV_register_combiners,
GL_NV_register_combiners2, GL_NV_texgen_reflection,
GL_NV_texture_compression_vtc, GL_NV_texture_env_combine4,
GL_NV_texture_expand_normal, GL_NV_texture_rectangle,
GL_NV_texture_shader, GL_NV_texture_shader2, GL_NV_texture_shader3,
GL_NV_vertex_array_range, GL_NV_vertex_array_range2, GL_NV_vertex_program,
GL_NV_vertex_program1_1, GL_NV_vertex_program2,
GL_NV_vertex_program2_option, GL_NV_vertex_program3,
GL_NVX_conditional_render, GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap, GL_SGIS_texture_lod,
GL_SGIX_depth_texture, GL_SGIX_shadow, GL_SUN_slice_accum
[/code]
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by Deus Siddis »

"""Did someone turn off the BBCode and smilies options for this subforum? They do not show in here only):"""

It seems those features and the ability to start new topics are disabled for normal members on this sub forum for some reason.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

Makes sense. I've tried the shaders with a GF6200 (similar to yours but discrete instead of onboard) and in order to get playable performance I have to drop shader settings quite low (simple or simplest).

I've been meaning to tweak the shaders to make them perform a bit better on that hardware. Basically, I have to play with precision and multisampling hints. It will take a long time to tweak them though.

The GF6150 and 6200 are very capable (lots of features) but rather slow.

Another thing that may help is avoiding overdraw (since the planet shaders draw the entire planet multiple times in order to get the desired effect). I've been looking for ways to skip occluded pixels (ie: not draw what won't be seen in the end), but it's not easy and it always produced visible artifacts the times I tried.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

In the process of hooking the system generator to the new techniques.

Apparently, the technique works great for forest worlds too :D

shot


It will take a lot of time to create the missing art for all the planet types. I'll have to improvise specmaps (ocean maps basically) for many many world types, mix & match cloud types, and the only good cloud map I have is of earth which just compounds the problem.

So in the meanwhile I'll be open to suggestions and submissions (ie: i'd really love some cloud maps :) ).

Also working on gas giants (though they still need a lot of love performance-wise):

shot
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by segfault »

[quote]Makes sense. I've tried the shaders with a GF6200 (similar to yours but discrete instead of onboard) and in order to get playable performance I have to drop shader settings quite low (simple or simplest).
I've been meaning to tweak the shaders to make them perform a bit better on that hardware. Basically, I have to play with precision and multisampling hints. It will take a long time to tweak them though.
The GF6150 and 6200 are very capable (lots of features) but rather slow.[/quote]

Ah, I see. Thanks, at least I know now that it's not a poorly configured FreeBSD 3d accelerated graphics issue.
Again, very nice art work on the planets. The one I am using for a background has garnered some complimentary comments from co-workers too.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by charlieg »

Klauss, make a blog post about this as the request for artwork there will likely fall in front of more eyes than a post deep in a forum. And it'll also make the project look more active.
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

Hm... good point.

I will also have to make a wiki entry on how to edit planet types in milky_way.xml, so people can test their contributions locally. (and it will also serve as much needed documentation)
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by jasonkarllees »

atlantis looks BEAUTIFULL
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

jasonkarllees wrote:atlantis looks BEAUTIFULL
:D

Are you referring to the screenshots or have you experienced it first hand?

Because if it's first hand experience, I'd love some feedback on the technical aspects (ie: how's performance, on what hardware, etc...)
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by charlieg »

Great blog post klauss. Two things missing:

1. screenshots / eye candy - a screenshot of atlantis and the gas giant will really get people's attention
2. a link to this thread

If you have a spare moment, please add those. :D
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Re: Atlantis makeover

Post by klauss »

Sure.

And they can be new screen shots (you know, with the latest improvements).

BTW: Yesterday at night (or was it today in the really early morning? ;) ) I improved performance on gas giants by 200% :D - cloud tracing still exhibits a lot of aliasing artifacts, I'm considering refactoring the whole thing. If it bogs down the hardware so much, I'd expect it to be artifact-free.
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