Trade lanes: actually making them

Development directions, tasks, and features being actively implemented or pursued by the development team.
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klauss
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Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote: That was the idea of buoys. Furthermore, trade lanes would have checkpoints (armed buoys) that would act both as safe harbor and choke point, and possibly interesting mission targets as well. The AP (or standard route from A to B) would take you across a series of strategically placed (but far-apart) buoys.
I think this would be a good thing to implement regardless of intra-system FTL method. Spawn the stations that are not orbiting planets or wormholes on the path directly between them. It seems a lot more deliberate and helps space feel less barren.
So... we're back to the mines idea. Cuz bouys are pretty much like mines.

Aside from the AP and AI improvements that would be required, we need the actual models.

The implementation I believe would be simply adding a special kind of station that is a buoy (ie: navpoint="true" on the system xml). Then AI and AP would try to navigate from navpoint to navpoint (each navpoint would have a reference to the connected navpoints that you can travel to/from). In essence, a graph.

The buoy station itself would be a grouping of station-keeping sub-units much like turrets. A new kind of AI role would be needed to make them station-keeping (I'd like them to be able to drift if collided with, but have them AP-themselves back into formation).

Checkpoint buoys would be hardened (shielded, strong weapons), while simple buoys would be softer (debris-clearing and pd-like weapons only).

Buoys would also have a small SPEC interdiction field, slightly larger than their size would mean, but smaller than a station's, in order to protect itself and travelers from accidental collisions.

They would also have scanners and attack contraband-carrying ships. We really need to effectively make contraband illegal ;)
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by jackS »

A thought that just occurred to me (a re-spin of an old idea) -- if the buoy network marks the best mapped path between infrastructure points, it could, among other things, be implementing the local FTL internet system as hub points for FTL relay drones on ping-pong routes (we already have comm station models, we'd just need the drones -- and a bunch of AI work, but let's ignore that for now). Could make for an interesting mechanic wherein the response of scanning a ship with contraband in it (or noticing that a ship isn't stopping to be scanned) isn't to shoot at it, but to tell someone about it :)

I'm also just generally of the opinion that having more options than shooting at things/not shoot at things is a good thing ;-)

Comms + refueling stations along the route would give a reason for there to more frequently be micro-hubs alongside the route (in addition to checkpoints or pure/simple buoy clusters), with some (intermittent) traffic with the station as the actual destination (maintenance craft, fuel tankers), but mostly ships just passing through. The other trick is to remember that the roadside stops are usually next to the highway rather than in the middle of the highway lanes (except with checkpoints), so you wouldn't necessarily have to grace every rest station along the way with an up-close and personal encounter.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by loki1950 »

The buoys should fairly easy to model we do have a few blenderheads on board ATM besides myself :wink: so let us have a short description of the various buoy/drones in this thread or an other get the art done so there is no excuse for not getting it done.
jackS wrote: so you wouldn't necessarily have to grace every rest station along the way with an up-close and personal encounter
Yes truck stops in space or the proverbial diner hot waitress with the hot cafine :D

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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by klauss »

jackS wrote:A thought that just occurred to me (a re-spin of an old idea) -- if the buoy network marks the best mapped path between infrastructure points, it could, among other things, be implementing the local FTL internet system as hub points for FTL relay drones on ping-pong routes (we already have comm station models, we'd just need the drones -- and a bunch of AI work, but let's ignore that for now). Could make for an interesting mechanic wherein the response of scanning a ship with contraband in it (or noticing that a ship isn't stopping to be scanned) isn't to shoot at it, but to tell someone about it :)
Yes, we don't have the AI framework for that yet, but I do agree that the game desperately needs it.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by ezee »

so let us have a short description of the various buoy/drones in this thread or an other get the art done so there is no excuse for not getting it done.
I'm in ! :wink:

I dream to have also Radio frequency available in the new sets of cockpits ( thus new functions ) . As buoys are elements of navigation , i choose to expose my idea here .

Actually , in real aviation world , you can make an airport to enlight his runways and installations by radio : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-controlled_lighting

As Klauss introduce the idea of AI for the buoys , the trigger for their activation ( light on/off for exemple ) could be radio controled ? This system could be derivated for an approach system with the spacestations in a second time .

It would be fantastic to hear in the com " LLama , you're number 2 to land , follow X and
callback in final " .
That will create a real traffic system .
BUOYS + RADIO SYSTEM ( with frequencies ) !
( please ? :lol: )

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 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by klauss »

That's pretty much the "request to dock" comm I guess.

It would be nice to be able to customize how units react to that command. While the default is to show the dock indicators, it would be nice if a somehow more dynamic response could be configured, or the appearance of the dock indicators be customized.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by ezee »

That's pretty much the "request to dock" comm I guess.
yeah , but with a frequency or a transponder code .
Press D is far too simple , that would be better to have controled space for all solar system
traffic .

Image

With different frequencies for military or civilian space for example .
We would turn a knob that increment the radio freq , when you have the good frequency
the radio menu appear . Think FS2004/X and you've got the picture .

The buoys could be also a kind of ILS :
Image

that's what i thought about .

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 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by klauss »

I think you're overthinking a minor feature.

D is good enough, just strap a python script that can do something interesting when told to, so that the effect isn't just turning on the docking indicators, but maybe picking the closest/freest docking path or something cooler.

But D is enough IMO.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by ezee »

I think you're overthinking a minor feature.
Are you talking about Radio frequencies or Art of docking ?
In a flight simulator , the landing is the most significant part of the flight !
And the most interesting also .
" Press D and dock " kills 50% of the gameplay if ya wanna know .
In a simulator i mean .

In a space shooter , i agree it's a minor thing ( you want to quick go to base , reload and
return chase the devil )

The topic is trade lanes ... back to topic so .
:arrow:

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 if (!track.HasWeapons())
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                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: The buoy station itself would be a grouping of station-keeping sub-units much like turrets. A new kind of AI role would be needed to make them station-keeping (I'd like them to be able to drift if collided with, but have them AP-themselves back into formation).
Why not just have a single platform, like the outpost or relay station? Or something like a giant armed ring that scans your ship when you fly through it?
while simple buoys would be softer (debris-clearing and pd-like weapons only).
Wouldn't it take between millions and billions of mini buoys to keep a path completely clear across a solar system though?
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by klauss »

ezee wrote:
I think you're overthinking a minor feature.
Are you talking about Radio frequencies or Art of docking ?
I'm talking about radio frequencies, but it could apply to both. Our intended scope is big enough that over-complicating this portion of gameplay will be counter-productive.

We have auto-docking auto-pilot. That has to be improved on, although it's quite good already, and used throughout. Manual docking is complicated enough, I propose only making use of dock indicators and actually coding in docking ops (ie: you get a docking port assigned, and you gotta dock there or request another).

Anything further than that is overthinking/overcomplicating IMO. Maneuvering a heavily laden carrier in-place, or docking under attack, is complicated enough as it is.

Furthermore, if you drive things too much into realistic parameters, you'll have docking maneuvers that take upwards of 20 minutes. That's way too much for the game's intended pace.

While I love simulators and I can relate to your statements, lets not loose sight of the whole picture. The game isn't supposed to be slow or cumbersome.
ezee wrote:The topic is trade lanes ... back to topic so .
:arrow:
I never was offtopic, though. My statement was related to checkpoints. Certainly all that detailed control you mention is overcomplicated for checkpoints even if we think of a simulator. Checkpoints even in reality are supposed to be fluid.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote: The buoy station itself would be a grouping of station-keeping sub-units much like turrets. A new kind of AI role would be needed to make them station-keeping (I'd like them to be able to drift if collided with, but have them AP-themselves back into formation).
Why not just have a single platform, like the outpost or relay station? Or something like a giant armed ring that scans your ship when you fly through it?
Honestly, because my mental model was like that. But thinking it a little more, we could also say that station-keeping buoys are more economical.

For the fictional universe and for us, because implementing them would open up the possibilities for many things that we need to do.

So while using a scanning ring would be simpler in the short term, it would advance us less in the right direction.
Deus Siddis wrote:
while simple buoys would be softer (debris-clearing and pd-like weapons only).
Wouldn't it take between millions and billions of mini buoys to keep a path completely clear across a solar system though?
Lol, yes. I thought someone might argue.

But space is really void. Buoys would only scan for debris and react. Maybe they'd fire a laser and steer the debris clear, maybe they'd notify patrols to take care of it. Maybe they'd simply light up red to let people know not to go through?
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: Honestly, because my mental model was like that. But thinking it a little more, we could also say that station-keeping buoys are more economical.
So how big would the checkpoint buoy formation be and what would it look like, a wall? How far apart would the units be? And what would the exact rules and consequences be for going around it?
...maybe they'd notify patrols to take care of it.
That seems more practical since they could be light minutes apart from each other and still be perfectly effective.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by jackS »

Semi-serious thought :"VS - now with red light cameras!"

Could even work - for the first N offences of avoiding scans, they just send you a bill and add points to your record for a moving violation. Get too many points in a(n organized) polity, and they'll start being more proactively interested in your whereabouts and/or insist you get a full search at every checkpoint, etc..

... or not.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by klauss »

jackS wrote:Semi-serious thought :"VS - now with red light cameras!"

Could even work - for the first N offences of avoiding scans, they just send you a bill and add points to your record for a moving violation. Get too many points in a(n organized) polity, and they'll start being more proactively interested in your whereabouts and/or insist you get a full search at every checkpoint, etc..

... or not.
Yeah, exactly, the point being, that VS now feels way too uncivilized, even around core systems.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by jackS »

The amusing thing being that, given how the "galaxy" xml was generated in the first place (seeded with faction core worlds, growth probabilities for expanding across links), keeping track of where the core systems were and how long they'd been "civilized" for wouldn't have been that hard... but a rewrite of the generator for the map file never made it up to high priority.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by ezee »

I have read a little part of " fraternal war " today , and i think that the big picture of the
Vega strike universe is described on it .
keeping track of where the core systems were and how long they'd been "civilized" for wouldn't have been that hard... but a rewrite of the generator for the map file never made it up to high priority.
that's it !
We are in the same situation that G.Lucas that had to be back to the roots to make his
fictionary universe evolve .
I think that the near future of VegaStrike is " Fraternal War " .
So much things are described in that document that this would be easy to populate systems using
Important Dates: (dates are proposed) (Mine aren’t perfect either, but they’re my first pass at things.)
Exploration Period Begins
2927 Unadorned discover Mishtali (First Contact: Humans)
2956 Beckett's Murky Venture
2988 Lightbearers discover Ktah
2988 Lightbearers occupy Ktah
2988 Andolians discover Ktah
2988 Andolians declare war on The Lightbearers (Fraternal War)
2989 Hoshino uprising, nulcear retaliation by The Lightbearers
2990 Andolians liberate Ktah
2990 Ktah Restoration Project
2991 Andolians reveal Spaceborn
2991 Arms proliferation increases across majority of human space
2992 Andolians begin to systematically debilitate Lightbearer faction
2994 Andolians defeat LightBearer faction, liberating Spaceborn and Shmrn
2996 Surviving Lightbearers turned over to Klk'k, Spaceborn and Shmrn custody.
2996 Lightbearer meme-group rendered defunct
2997 Andolian Protectorate established
3002 Shmrn colonization efforts begin
3003Andolians cede control of several former Lightbearer colonies to other factions
3006 Diplomatic talks commence concerning Confed
3006 LIHW formed
Exploration Period Ends
That exploration Period is the root lane , the trunk , all other lanes are similar to branches.
It is the map i will use to start to work on Vegastrike ' fraternal war ' .
And that would be a great experience to assist in that universal expansion .
I imagine an intro scene where we see giants vessels leaving earth and solar system ,
with the same moovement rising in different locations of the universe .
And Bob dylan as soundtrack : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqvUz0HrNKY
8)

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 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote: Yeah, exactly, the point being, that VS now feels way too uncivilized, even around core systems.
It is important to make a distinction between violence and stupidity with regard to orderliness though. From a game play perspective, violence is good and stupidity is bad.

Piracy and war create dynamism, interactivity and challenge for players. Just as long as not all systems are equally dangerous this is the good kind of uncivilized.
A star fortress dropped in deep space while the system's wormholes and major planet go unprotected is the stupid kind of uncivilized.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by klauss »

That's an engine-side fix sadly (the one that needs fixing is the system generator, which is engine-side).

Somehow, I believe system generation should be in python instead of C++.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by ezee »

Somehow, I believe system generation should be in python instead of C++.
I have worked on that with real bright star catalog , a python lib that deal with long/lat/distances etc ... and pysqlite . Panda3D was the render engine .
A cool experience , not finished .
A memorial video here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5Tu5_zBUjg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqWbIvWCAR4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOuUL1Boc8U

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 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote:That's an engine-side fix sadly (the one that needs fixing is the system generator, which is engine-side).
Somehow, I believe system generation should be in python instead of C++.
The AddBasesToSystem function in generate_dyn_universe.py seems to do this but I am uncertain where the intra-system location of a base is generated.
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Re: Trade lanes: actually making them

Post by ezee »

An other way of making lanes could be to let the IA explore the universe and make them .
Here ( generate_dyn_universe.py) , the things aren't so dynamic but predeterministic :

Predeterminism is the idea that all events are determined in advance.[1][2] Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.

The fact to use a random generator don't make the universe more dynamic ( a good french article about ethymology of dynamic refers also to oligarchy ... http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/dynamique ) , but only make it different each time you create ( with seed ...) this universe .

But the probability of a base is only regulated by hardcoded factors :
if (numjumppoints<4):
if (vsrandom.random()>=.25):
numbases=1
etc...
From an AI point of view , the AI would make a base only if :
_ There is compatible environment
_ There are huge quantity of ressources to grab
- There is a need to build military defencies
_ I don't care i am a conqueror i terraform everything :lol:
_....

This way the gamewould be dynamic :

from a initial AI strategy ( there can be more than one , each specie or faction can follow
individual rules - that's why they are a faction :wink: ) , the universe will be populated .
Dynamic creation of BASES would occur at any time in the game , not only in the game
loading time .

And economical or political factors would be decisive elements on create a base or not .
If you dispatch your alien AI species in Homelands , with different behavior , you could
have interesting results .

The random should be in the ressources attributed to each system , in planets , moons , asteroids and other gaz fields .
If you want the AI to moove on , reduce the ressource of his colony to critical :
you just created a massive exode .

etc ...
Edit : I started a brainstorming with Ai here -> http://forums.vega-strike.org/viewtopic ... 27&t=19807

If we choose this AI protocol , the things ain't change a lot for you Klauss :
The AI will use hard coded fonctions to execute their actions , your code perhaps .
So it's cool to exchange ideas between the AI dev and the GameEngine dev .
:wink:

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 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }
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