Release Schedule?

Development directions, tasks, and features being actively implemented or pursued by the development team.
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One Salient Oversight
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Release Schedule?

Post by One Salient Oversight »

OK, IANAP (I am not a programmer) and I kneel down in front of the Zod you all are in creating this great game.

I'm very much enjoying 0.5.0. I used to play Elite on my brother's Commodore 64 back in the 1980s so this game is a great treat and you're doing a good job.

It would be nice, though, if VS could have a 6 monthly release schedule like Ubuntu does. I know that time is short and programmers are few and debates are many and bugs are everywhere, but a six monthly schedule, even if it's moving from 0.5.0 to 0.5.1 and then to 0.5.2 six months later is better than nothing. Incremental improvements are better than nothing.

Also, it would also be great if VS makes it into the standard Ubuntu/Kubuntu repositories. I was able to download 0.4.3 from the Kubuntu repository and was having problems and then found 0.5.0 was available but I had to download it manually rather than using Adept (apt-get). If 0.5.0 had been in the repository, I could've easily gotten an upgrade. Moreover, each time the software changes between 6 month releases (bugfixes etc) people like me should be able to get them automatically whenever we do our weekly Adept downloads for bugfixes.

Again, IANAP and I have no idea what important things need to be done. Yet because of the growth of Ubuntu I would see it as a necessity to support it via Adept/Synaptic and for the Ubuntu 6 month release schedules. Even if this means only incremental changes it is worth doing and worthwhile diverting coding/labor resources to achieve this.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by pyramid »

A 6 months schedule would be ideal. You can usually accompany pending developments for the next release either in the 0.6 plans thread, or on the 0.6.0 roadmap wiki page.

What is currently missing are not so many things (new units integration, cubemap support, cinemut shader support). However we've got delayed due to an external tool (xNormal) not working in sync with the requirements of the new CineMut shader. Also we're absolutely low on manpower on the coding side, so things may still take a while before the release rally happens.

As for Ubuntu repos, I don't think any of the devs is in charge of that. Usually it's a maintainer from Ubuntu that comes to the forum if support for Ubuntu release is required. It might make more sense to highlight it with the respective maintainer to synch the repo with 0.5.0 or even svn.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by ace123 »

A 6-month release cycle is definitely a great thing to have as it keeps user interest. We can't afford another 3-year period with no releases... and there is no good reason to do so either. It is true that there were huge data issues in making the 0.5 release which made it drag out for that long.

Unfortunately I believe 0.5 is not ever going to make it into Debian/Ubuntu. From the debian page, they said that it was too big to fit on a CD (though I'm not sure what they mean with that because it does fit on a CD).

The only thing that Debian and Ubuntu have is the game executables from 0.5 (at least in Intrepid or later) but even those are for some reason slightly prerelease SVN versions, and still the old 0.4.3 data.
I'm not sure if the new version of the engine is compatible with the 0.4.3 data like the 0.5 engine was, so who knows if they will even update their repos any more. The thing that does not make sense is why they can't make a stub package that downloads and installs the latest version directly from Sourceforge -- that way they don't need to worry about packaging the game themselves.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by One Salient Oversight »

I personally don't think that VS would ever make it onto Ubuntu/Debian CDs either - and for good reason. It's not that VS is bad, it's just that there's only so much they can fit onto the CDs. As bandwidths increase and people move to DVDs it might change.

But that's not what I was talking about.

I'm talking about ensuring that VS remains up-to-date at the Ubuntu software repository. I downloaded 0.4.3 about six weeks ago via Adept after I discovered that VS was similar to Elite (I think I was browsing through Wikipedia and found that). It was very frustrating for me to discover that I couldn't get 0.5.0 through Adept and that I had to install it myself (a daunting process for a non-techy Linux user).

And I, like many Ubuntu/Kubuntu users, get software updates every week via Adept. If you guys who look after VS could somehow also be involved in maintaining the Ubuntu repository for it, bugfixes and updates would be downloadable on a regular basis for ordinary players like myself.

Release early, release often.

Even if the changes over a six month period are minimal, it is worth it. Small improvements over time will make players happy. Moreover, if bugfixes are applied when needed and easily downloadable at the repository, players will also be happy.

And the more people are happy, the more programmers you'll get to work on it! :D
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by charlieg »

Hellcatv has been making some commits including this intriguing "face perpendicular" AI script (commit).
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by loki1950 »

If you want to keep abreast of new changes to either the engine code or the he data set the news page http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/ has a RSS link for the svn log and setting up the svn version is not that difficult been walking non-teckies thru the process for about two years now with out a release lots of people wanted the latest.Even the windows people they don't even have to complie the binaries.

Enjoy the Choice :)
Last edited by loki1950 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by chuck_starchaser »

ace123 wrote:Unfortunately I believe 0.5 is not ever going to make it into Debian/Ubuntu. From the debian page, they said that it was too big to fit on a CD (though I'm not sure what they mean with that because it does fit on a CD).
At PU we debated the possibility of making a special, "light" release for distros, and after long discussions arrived to the conclusion that the way to go was to put together a demo with just one system and a handful of ships. Troy, in our case. Then, in the demo we'd include a batch/script so that people can download the full version via svn. I'd suggest the same thing for VS. The process has been slow for us due to a lack of helping hands; --basically it's just me and Gorbalad doing evrything; and Nphillips is working on one ship but very slowly; while I'm trying to get the CineMut package together, and giving VT a hand with modeling startrek cockpits. The plan to release a demo has been a bonanza, however, from the point of view of focusing our efforts. However slowly things are proceeding, they are doing so according to a plan.
If VS were to adopt a similar plan, you'd soon rip similar focus benefits: 90% of to-do's will end up in a "after the demo" list, and the 10% that end up in the "FOR the demo release" list will start getting done. You'd be looking hard through all your ships for the best of the bunch and asking what could be done to make them better. Etceteras.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by charlieg »

I still think the whole SVN thing is a bad idea and needs rethinking. SVN is a developer tool, not a mass-download tool. I know PU has it's own SVN server(s) but VS uses SF.net and it would be severely abusing SVN to make it _the_ official way to get VS (it's bad enough that it's already used for cutting edge Windows binary distribution).

They put a lot of effort into making a redundant file download system on SF.net - you should use it. Automating it may not be as simple, but if somebody wants to play something they will go and get a download if they have to.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Well, I see your points, but on the other hand there's only 3 hands and a half working on PU atm, and I cannot even deal with the thought of producing an installable executable. There's nothing to stop a willing contributor from producing an installable; it's just that I'm not going to do it myself. I don't even have a compiler, to begin with. Except for the demo: Just once, I'm going to make an installable, god help me with it; but that's it: Never again after that until we declare PU *finished*.
The project is a game; not a game engine; so I see nothing wrong with using svn for data. Data is what PU is, and our users seem very happy with using SVN for checkout and updates. This argument always boils down to that some users will refuse to install tortoise to download a game; I say to hell with them.
The argument for what "SVN was made for" is a non-argument. It's totally irrelevant what X (anything) was made for. If it serves function Y well, and even better than Z which was made for function Y, then using X instead of Z for Y is progress. Frankly, I see no reason why svn should be limited in use to source development. When I was young I once (or twice) toyed with the idea of designing a new operating system, and one of the features I was planning for it was similar to SVN, and I was planning to build it into the filesystem itself, so that NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF DATA in your hard drive could possibly exist that wouldn't be traceable as to its origins and history.
Anyways, I wasn't trying to convince Ace to use SVN for downloads; my emphasis was on the demo-version-for-distros idea.
Last edited by chuck_starchaser on Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by charlieg »

What you do, chuck, is you put up a source + data zip/tar.gz and let others provide the binaries - its the type of task that is good for attracting new contributors as it requires little or no knowledge of the codebase and there's tons of tutorials online on creating installable binaries.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by chuck_starchaser »

But, CharlieG, then you're talking about people with the skills and the tools and the means to add binaries to the package; and such people, by definition, are skilful and capable and toolful to svn-check-out. What's the diff? I don't understand it.
By the way; we got another problem with that, at least temporarily: PU's data is not compatible with current SVN binaries/sources due to the texture renaming that happened a while back. I also think I heard that there was some change that affected savegame compatibility. We might even have to generate a new New_Game savegame, when we upgrade binaries, which we don't know how to do. So, I wouldn't even know what sources to point people to. I'm scared shitless about what's going to happen next time we upgrade the engine, happily procrastinating until cube-maps are in.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by Fendorin »

i m agree and support the idea = each 6month 1newrealease, even if the to do list isn't finish.

and think about people want just play .... they don't want go to sourceforge for download the game .
think about some kids ( but maybe many kids are better than me for understand computers..... :? )
and i hope we develop a game for players( with many 's') not just for us?
Then it will be like a law to have a new release each 6 month ( and is good too for some "News" speak about the game) and "distribute" the game.
it's like "when you shake yourself in a railroad station = your parent/family/friend you waited see you very quicly BUT often others peoples too!!!
more you moove more you are visible!!

thank
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by One Salient Oversight »

Not being a coder there is not much that I can do to help.

I do think, though, that the communications dialogue could change. I'm sick of "Catch a Pirate for me!" and "For Sul-gatwa!" appearing all the time.

I'm a High School English teacher with some experience in creative writing. I suppose I could come up with a couple of hundred different responses to communication.

It won't make the game great, but it will add some personality, and personality goes a long way (Jules, Pulp Fiction).
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Damn good point! And text occupies so little space, and it is so easy to add; it's a wonder we spend so much of our time and efforts on graphics when
so much can be added to enrich the player's experience via text. Also, a lot of programming effort has gone into mission and news generation that is
utterly ruined by the poverty of text alternatives, causing endless repetitions. Work in such areas could quickly and easily make the whole game look
and feel more professional, and be many times more entertaining and immersive.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by One Salient Oversight »

I'm certainly happy to add some "spice" in the form of more diverse dialogue - it's something I can do to help a game that I thoroughly enjoy.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by pyramid »

This would be much appreciated, as VS is badly suffering from Nihilitis, i.e, as chuck has stated, it has none but graphical content.
A good starting point is to review the "data/communications" directory for dialogs and the corresponding wiki documentation on communications. Any concerns regarding the communications editing, please ask.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by safemode »

You can't really talk about date schedules with VS for releasing. It just doesn't work. It can't work. There simply aren't enough people and you can't put things out that are half complete or still in a non-functional state. Unfortunately, what we need is what most people aren't, more developers who can code, not only C++ but also python. In the meantime though, other things can be worked on. The wiki and playing manual are in need of some serious updating.

I would say even more than dialogue, getting the manual up to date and the wiki are the most important things outside of artist and developer work. Transcribing the storyline leading up to the events in the game is another important aspect, one that i think really needs to pass through multiple heads before being etched in stone. The website and manual and wiki for VS is highly important, it's the first thing new gamers see when they are checking it out, and it's the first place novice and even old users goto for info and help. We ought to bring about some tutorials on using VS in a mod (PU guys would be ideal for setting that up) and have a more user-centric website (with the developer and everything else currently on the site, reached via a "developer's corner type" page linked somewhere).

Right now any relevant info has to be grepped from the wiki, which despite being concise, is not very intuitive. The wiki serves as a decent way to organize information, but not a decent way in representing that information in a non-encyclopedia manner. The website needs to become an extension of the game, (granted, this is sourceforge and we can't abuse it for non-dev purposes), it should help tell the story, inform the new gamers and make the most needed things easily retrievable. A non-coder could definitely help in many of these areas.

But like everything, simply stating needs isn't going to get us anywhere really. It's all up to someone wanting to do it. That's why the dev cycle is what it is, that's why it's not going to change anytime soon, and that's why sometimes it seems like we're moving at a breakneck pace, and then a month later things look almost dead.

All we can do is work on guidelines, make a list of hopes and dreams and work any contributions into a form that meets the guidelines and can be used.

I wish i could get paid to code, or at least have a job where i do nothing at home so i'd have the time to code. As it is, like most of the other developers, time is an extremely rare resource at the moment for me. All i can do at work is some random web perusing. :(
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by One Salient Oversight »

I'm pretty impressed with the artwork and graphics of VS. It's precisely THAT area that should be "forsaken" for a while to focus upon the areas you mention.

In my short time playing VS I have been very, very impressed with the artwork and the spfx. Flying a ship close up to a mining station or similar and looking out the l/h window and you can see reflections of the stars on the shiny metal. Beautiful. Just beautiful.

But there's so many other things that need to be worked on. Combat is annoying for me because I can't immediately put the sensor on the nearest threat. I'm being banged up by 3-4 Aera and every time I press "h" my sensors highlight some stupid out of range Gleaner.

Sometimes I try to dock with commerce centres and factories and no matter how many times I press "d" I still don't dock (and sometimes crash into them).

And why can't I dock with other spaceships easily? They keep flying around randomly, preventing me from docking... and when I do try to dock someone at the helm of a stupid Ox decides to swing the rear of the ship around to hit me.

And sometimes I want to buy a Gleaner.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Well, no aspect needs to be "forsaken", and we each have different aptitudes. I work on modeling (for another mod) and shader programming; safemode and klauss and ace123 and hellcat work on programming; pyramid works on unit integration, unit integration tools, documentation and planets; fendorin and deus siddis (and a few others occasionally) work on modeling and texturing.
The problems you mention are well known are high on the priority list. I don't think people whose aptitudes are what they are should drop everything to work on something else; but if you have the inspiration to improve the text aspects of the game, that's fantastic. You just have to roll up your sleeves and start working on it. The problem with most good ideas is that they never get past the point of discussing them in the forum. Somebody has to sit down with a large size cappucino, and a clean ashtray if they smoke, and make things happen.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by One Salient Oversight »

So tell me how to do it. Take me through the procedures.

Do planet names also need attention? I've noticed planet names being repeated too.

EDIT: BTW your response did make sense. Not being a coder I can often forget that coding is not all the same thing.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by chuck_starchaser »

Check in the modules folder. That's where mission dialogues and many other texty things reside.
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by Fendorin »

So tell me how to do it. Take me through the procedures
You should have a look too the Wiki development page.

And if you are terrified by your unknowlege, you will learn a lot if you begin (before worked for Vegastrike i never learn/touch any 3D software ) and it' was just since less than feb 2007 my first model was the boxy,ugly DILIGENCE and i was very happy when i did it but now i can be very critics again it.

Then don't hesitate to begin by a simplest target/goal

they have many people could help you if you bring some problem
And you are more than welcome for write a new conversation/story.

Welcome and don't hesitate to ask !
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by One Salient Oversight »

Alas I cannot find the right files.

I even used Konqueror to search for them: http://static.zooomr.com/images/6162611 ... a51b_o.png

(I looked up "alas" to see where it occurred. Not there according to the search string)

Any ideas?
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by One Salient Oversight »

Okay, I found them under "communications".

Here's a sample from aeran_merchant_marine.xml:

Code: Select all

<!-- Starting Points -->
	<node text="Go on. I know those who do not threaten me." relationship="0.2"><!-- node 1 (very happy)-->
		<edge index="4"/>
		<edge index="5"/>
		<edge index="6"/>
	</node>
	<node text="Leave now, my attention is elsewhere." relationship="0"><!-- node 2 (neutral)-->
		<edge index="8"/>
		<edge index="9"/>
		<edge index="10"/>
	</node>
	<node text="Die forgotten!" relationship="-.2"><!-- node 3 (very mad)-->
		<edge index="12"/>
		<edge index="13"/>
		<edge index="14"/>
	</node>
<!-- End of Starting Points -->
Okay so if I add anything to this what do I need to do? Is each node unique or is there some sort of random response going on?

ie

If I add more under node 3 will it:
a) break
b) choose a response randomly
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Re: Release Schedule?

Post by ace123 »

Each of the <edge index="..."> tags are the index into the file, so if you add a node 4 then everything will shift by 1 so most of the responses could then make no sense.

Also, the docking ops and all to the way to the end are built-in and are always supposed to be the last approximately 10 nodes in the file.
<node text="Docking operation complete. You're free of the docking clamps." relationship="0.01">

So the correct place to add nodes is before the docking operations nodes--that way you don't ruin any of the numbers.
If you want to replace an old string that just sounds bad you can just replace it and any conversation strings that point to it will use the new text.
And if you want to remove a node just search for all references to its number but don't delete it.

Also, a word of warning: The player will generally speak back in between a lot of the nodes, so usually you want gaps 2 nodes away like:
"Hello" => "Howdy" => "How are you doing today?" => "I am doing fine" => "That's great. Things are going pretty well for me too."

Also, the AI will randomly choose a response based on its relationship. (that's why the relation number needs to be specified on each node)

Unfortunately, entrances into a conversation are not very well defined and if you are enemies the entrances to conversation will generally be from the "*hit*" node (the last in the file) which points to what someone says when they get hit. And after a given ship says something he is stuck in that conversation node and doesn't go back to the beginning, so the starting node (0) isn't seen a whole lot.
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