New Artwork

Forum For Privateer Remake

Postby Orthuberra » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:56 pm

Oh, nevermind then. And this also answers my question as to why some of that art looks weird and I can't figure out what 3D technique they were using to make the art back then, answer: they weren't. :)
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Postby chuck_starchaser » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:57 pm

The ships and base exteriors were modelled, in order to make all the 37 or so pre-rendered views of each. But anything they didn't need multiple views of they didn't model.
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Postby Dilloh » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:01 am

Thanks charlieg, I think you summed up the facts very good, leaving little to no space for "but..."s 8)

However, let's get back to topic, agreed?
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Postby chuck_starchaser » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:58 am

OT:
Agreed on Charlieg's posts. We should post a link to this thread at
sourceforge news.

Ehm.. we've moved, Dilloh; does on-topic-ness here matter anymore? :D
/OT
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Postby Turbo » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:15 am

charlieg wrote:So... you make it for people to play. Why keep everything closed? Why keep it all internal? It's for the fans, right?

Are you talking to me?
chuck_starchaser wrote:If you have any other images that could use high quality scaling up's, post them and I'll do them.

chuck_starchaser wrote:
Turbo wrote:all I really need are the up-scaled renders of the fixer animations, say 4x original size.

Sorry, but I think the deal I offered you was too generous to begin with... So, take it or leave it.

Oh I see, you're talking to Chuck.

Let's try this one more time: I can only give away what is mine. Chuck wants the base models, not the 17 cargo and ship upgrades I made. I don't own the bases. Chuck won't do the renders except in exchange for the bases. So as I said, that concludes my business with Chuck.

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Postby chuck_starchaser » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:20 am

Turbo wrote:
charlieg wrote:So... you make it for people to play. Why keep everything closed? Why keep it all internal? It's for the fans, right?

Are you talking to me?
chuck_starchaser wrote:If you have any other images that could use high quality scaling up's, post them and I'll do them.

chuck_starchaser wrote:
Turbo wrote:all I really need are the up-scaled renders of the fixer animations, say 4x original size.

Sorry, but I think the deal I offered you was too generous to begin with... So, take it or leave it.

Oh I see, you're talking to Chuck.

Let's try this one more time: I can only give away what is mine. Chuck wants the base models, not the 17 cargo and ship upgrades I made. I don't own the bases. Chuck won't do the renders except in exchange for the bases. So as I said, that concludes my business with Chuck.

Turbo

LOL once again...

GG don't share with us their bases. They say we'll have to wait until their product is released, to have just the renders, right?

Well, tit for tat: So they won't have our hi-rez characters until our final product is released. Get it?

End of story.

And by the way, when you said you wouldn't give us the "sources", as you called the 3D models, you basically gave away who you are, so it's too late now to try and put your original rabbit mask back on --about "not being yours to give", yada yada.

Saying you won't give me the "sources" was a "Freudian slip" of astronomical proportions, and you know it: showing that it WAS yours to give, but you didn't want to. Your cover is off, pal; your butt shows.

Plus you made a total ass of yourself and your minions by showing how much you guys appreciate all that you owe to Open Source.

Got it, flyboy? Now, go register under yet another name, and start again.
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Postby charlieg » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:53 am

Turbo wrote:Are you talking to me?


Not just you but the PGG team as a whole.

Turbo wrote:Let's try this one more time: I can only give away what is mine. Chuck wants the base models, not the 17 cargo and ship upgrades I made. I don't own the bases. Chuck won't do the renders except in exchange for the bases. So as I said, that concludes my business with Chuck.


Well that's different. Perhaps you want to share the cargo / ship upgrades? That's up to you. If you want to, why not just do it, rather than posturing that you could do it? Or will you only exchange stuff? I bet things would move faster for both projects if everybody stopped trying to exchange and just said, "here is my stuff." PGG was always closed and used the open efforts of others, causing this chaos in the first place - which is why I say the impetus is on the PGG devs to share, but everybody will have their own opinion.

Chuck, you seem to be reading too much into Turbo's source comments - he was equating access to the 3D models with access to your program's source. I doubt anybody here is posting under dual aliases. Your latest post is a little strange to me and seem to be trying to fan flames. As Turbo states, he can only speak for himself and his own work.

If everybody just shared their work unconditionally (well, under the appropriate FOSS license) then all PR-spawned projects would be better off.

Sadly until somebody from the PGG team sets a precedent, I don't see that happening.
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Postby chuck_starchaser » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:33 am

That's true, Charlieg; I don't know that Turbo is someone else; but I have good reasons to be on edge:

When Orthuberra started working on the characters and I made those scaled images for him, right away, he got a PM from a certain GG character, buttering him up and trying to get him to share his results with them. Now, that's the mother of all unethical operations: If GG want things from PU, they should ask Dilloh or z30; NOT approach our new artists/contributors behind our backs. True? But Mr. Youknowwho, has been an asshole to Dilloh more than once, un-stickying and deleting his posts, abusing his unrightful moderator powers; so he probably thought that was not a viable access route.

Luckily, Orthuberra is a straight and decent guy, and he told us what was going on.

So, plan A failed.

Suddenly, this Turbo character shows up here literally out of nowhere and tries to get scaled up images from us, again... Faking complete and utter naivete; then suddenly suffering a change of personalities and saying "you're asking for the sources; I'm not giving them to you".

Doesn't it seem a bit strange to you? Doesn't it all seem like a (also failed) Plan B?

LOL. The deal could have included the sources to my program, if that was the issue; but I don't think it was. Too late now, anyways. But all they cared for was the high rez images, program or no program; and like I said, they'll have to wait for them until we release, and then steal them. The chance for an exchange is gone.

EDIT:
Unless Plan C succeeds... Bring it on! There's no honor in slaughter... :D
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Postby Halleck » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:41 pm

You guys could make an in-game subplot out of all the drama that goes on between the different Wing Commander mod projects...

Just make the base meshes into base plans and the source code into secret government codes. ;)
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Postby chuck_starchaser » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:01 pm

Halleck wrote:You guys could make an in-game subplot out of all the drama that goes on between the different Wing Commander mod projects...

Just make the base meshes into base plans and the source code into secret government codes. ;)


Hahaha, you might actually get your wish :D
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Postby Dilloh » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:30 pm

John Cordell wrote:I don't think you got the idea behind announcements Dilloh,

sie sind nur für Forum Administratoren und PR Entwickler relevant, d.h. Du hälst Dich davon fern und benutzt stickies.

Alles klar?

I won't translate this right now, let's just say I'm not in for menaces.

Okay guys, I'm certainly not objective, but now a word from the moderator in me, I think everything is said right now.

Turbo is a character which showed up within the GG forums a few months ago already. I doubt that he is an alias of whoever.

From what I think and see, this thread turns out to be a circus. I mean, there'll be no trade between GG and PU, and we all had our fun with that, so I'd suggest to end discussions here before an admin ends it up. It'd be a pity if this topic would be locked because we just can't get along with each other like adults.

Turbo, I believe your intentions were good in offering a trade, and it is a pity that you needed to hear the bad parts of the story here and not from those who actually are responsible for the atmosphere, but we cannot change this fact.
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Postby chuck_starchaser » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:05 pm

No problem, mate.

And a closing note: Turbo, if you're indeed innocent, and not an alias for someone else, my apollogies. But either way, I wrote my program for use by PU, PR, WCU, and for the whole world, really; but NOT for a group you mentioned in your list of potential beneficiaries. ;-)
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Postby Turbo » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:13 am

charlieg wrote: Perhaps you want to share the cargo / ship upgrades?

You probably missed it in all the excitement, but I already did:
http://www.willadsenfamily.org/us/don/t ... models.htm

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Postby MamiyaOtaru » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:12 am

Those look nice. Gems, repair bots and RF upgrades are probably my favorites :)
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Postby chuck_starchaser » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:26 am

I agree; and I had totally missed this stuff. Good stuff, Turbo!

And I'm sorry you got the raw end of my paranoia ;-)
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Postby charlieg » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:53 am

Turbo wrote:You probably missed it in all the excitement, but I already did:
http://www.willadsenfamily.org/us/don/t ... models.htm

Turbo

Good show.

What I said still applies to the other GG devs though. Closed development of a fork of an open source project is just out of order in my book.
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Postby John Cordell » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:45 am

charlieg wrote:What I said still applies to the other GG devs though. Closed development of a fork of an open source project is just out of order in my book.


If we would take away artists their free choice under which license they contribute stuff, a game like this would never reach it's goals.
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Postby chuck_starchaser » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:20 pm

Ah, so it was actually your artists' free choice that their art be used only for GG, not your choice. I see. We seemed to get a slightly different picture from Turbo...

From a PM to Dilloh:
Turbo wrote:... I'm not John, and he's not happy that I am sharing the renders I did.


Probably just a misunderstanding; I suppose that's why Dilloh was asking you for a list of your contributors, so there would be no more misunderstandings, but I could be wrong.
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Postby charlieg » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:06 pm

John Cordell wrote:If we would take away artists their free choice under which license they contribute stuff, a game like this would never reach it's goals.


I would argue the converse is true.

If you make sure all work is available under a FOSS license, then the project is more likely to survive loss of contributors. If you lose the artist who made the bases for you, improvements to those base screens using his models become impossible. By accepting non-Free work in your project you shackle your project by making it dependent on people.

A project with as much exposure as PR+ (PR+ meaning PR, PGG, PU, WCU) has plenty interested contributors. It should not be dependent on any single one of them.

Perhaps the failure here is open source advocates like myself not properly getting across the message of the benefits of being strictly open source. It is not just a principle, it has important and tangible reasoning.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html

John, PGG is incredibly susceptible to having the bottom fall out of it should you or one of your major artists disappear (and it happens - we all have real lives which can compromise our commitments for reasons good or bad).

You can convince your artists to release their PGG work under a Free license if you want to. It would not be hard. That is your choice. You [the PGG project leads] can set the criteria for inclusion of work in PGG. Of course you may have the opinion that it is better to be pragmatic and accept any quality artwork regardless of license but then what happens if the artist turns around and says they want their work withdrawn from PGG? What license do you have to point to and say, "this is how you distributed this work, this is what I go by."
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Postby Turbo » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:24 pm

chuck_starchaser wrote: I suppose that's why Dilloh was asking you for a list of your contributors

And, it is why I couldn't pay the price you wanted, generous or not. I simply don't know who all the artists are, or who did what.

I'm surprised you guys took Dilloh's joke about me being an alt-nick for John seriously. Any mod can see IP addresses, and using this thing called the Internet they can tell that I'm not even on the same continent as John. That's basic "mod school" stuff. But hey, I learned many things in the discussion, and it prompted me to find another solution to my requirement.

I don't see a problem being dependent on people for a team project. It means you have to treat them with respect. :shock: You know how touchy we artists can be. :D

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Postby chuck_starchaser » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:54 am

Turbo wrote:I'm surprised you guys took Dilloh's joke about me being an alt-nick for John seriously.

Did Dilloh joke about that? I didn't catch it. I came up with the theory myself, and was quite serious about it. After Orthuberra was approached behind our backs, I got stiff neck from looking over my shoulder. Anyways, there had been pressure building up for years, and you happened to pop in at the time of the explosion. Sorry about that. Looks like the flames are under control now. Keep up the good work, whoever you'll work for. Speaking just for myself, though, I'd rather not have contributors working for both sides. From a purely esthetical POV, I don't see the point having multiple mods that look and feel almost identical. What's the point?
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Postby Dilloh » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:11 am

Did Dilloh joke about that?
I never stated that Turbo is or was an alias from John. A misunderstanding, I guess.

jackS informed me about the new deal. Noone heavily involved in a mod, no matter if it is a large project like Gemini Gold or something younger like PU, will or at least should have a moderation status in those forums. So both John and me have been PR/WCU moderators for the longest time. This is the outcome I expected, and it is fine for me.

@John, I'd finally like to say that it was not my intention to put GG down. In fact, I started off with Gemini Gold and it was a great game, but at the time I got it it was "Privateer Remake light", which means the new artwork was not in. You're trying to reproduce the original as close as possible, which is a good thing for me being a passionate retro gamer. I just disliked the way the developement process of GG affected PR and PU, and especially the community around here. Summed up, the conflicts we had were avoidable, if not childish, and I regret it all happened like this, but I guess there was no other way to solve this. From my point of view, I deserve being moderator no longer for my participation in on of the mods which lead to the quarrel.

I'd suggest everybody should cool down again by now, let's get back to work and maybe there's a chance we'll all meet again to share a common aim one day.

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Postby z30 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:39 am

The section below is taking from the IP (Intellectual Property) rules of mods for Relic's Homeworld game. If we were following this system here, PR would be long dead.

Open source is the way to go if you want your creation to have any chance of surviving the creator's disappearance.

Any thoughts to the contrary can be corrected by seeing how many dead mods there are in Homeworld

http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=88

And if the IP scheme below appeals to you, please don't try to impose it on VS or PR because you can't. GPL sees to that.

========
Mods involving HW1 source code:
According to the EULA accompanying the Homeworld source code, any mods made with that source code are Relic's property, and modders surrender all Intellectual Property claims to assets they put in such mods. In order to use someone else's work in a HW1 code mod, you must convince them to surrender their IP claims to that work.

IP Flowchart
This flowchart is designed to help you determine whether or not it is acceptable to use a certain asset (model, texture, whatever) in a mod.

"it" refers to a model, a texture, an effect, or some other asset that you want to put in your HW2 and/or DoW mod.

1. Did you make it?
YES: It's yours, do whatever you want with it.
NO. Proceed to step 2.

2. Do you know who made it?
YES. Proceed to step 3.
NO. You are out of luck. Don't use it.

3. Do you know how to contact the person who made it?
YES. Contact him/her and ask for permission to use the asset, then proceed to step 5.
NO. Ask Google and knowledgable collegues where to find that person, then proceed to step 4.

4. Do you know how to contact the person now?
YES. Go back to step 3.
NO. You are out of luck. Don't use it.

5. Did they give you permission to use their creation?
YES. Congratulations. Use it in your mod. Give the maker credit in your mod's readme, or whatever else the maker wants.
NO. Until you get a confirmation from the creator, you cannot use it.

6. Did you get permission?
YES. Congratulations. Use it in your mod. Give the maker credit in your mod's readme, or whatever else the maker wants.
NO. You are out of luck. Don't use it.

Basically, if you didn't make it, it's not yours. Everything belongs to somebody, and using people's things without permission is theft of Intellectual Property, which is a bannable offense.
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Postby micheal_andreas_stahl » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:46 am

:shock: I should be banned. I had no clue about that, but, now i know why so many modes died out.
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