Some issues I noticed about the game (pr1.2 w/PU1.1b6-DSE)

[Zool]

magitech is just a term for an in cannon technology that relies on 'magic' to work... the explanations are shoddy at best... think: 'and then a miracle happens'

Now that's hilarious..... but quite true and acceptable.

One thing I would like to say is don't forget that this is all Science Fiction and traditionally a lot of explanations don't make sense or have to make sence. I think sometimes we C21st people try to explain too much from the future of our primitive terms. Certain things work in the C27th that our present-day technology just simply doesn't have an explanation for. I, for one don't mind a bit of "magitech" in my sci-fi.....Remember, if it works, don't fix it.......but by all means make it better...hahahahahaha

i am in no way suggesting a movement away from the compromise... i still think the carrier/JD idea is a great one... but it would make sense for speed of collecting cargo if you saw this in game... they have several 'quick dock' ports for unloading cargo... they gotta be fast... never know when milita would show up, rather than intern the whole ship...

Yes.

Maybe that could be a good use for the Cutlass; have smuggling pirates flying Cutlasses at huge speed, silent mode. Just once in a while.

Good idea.

However, I don't think the pirates would use special ships for different purposes. They need a single ship which ultimatively fills the gap between smuggling and looting.

Yes and no. One can assume that the Talon in PO did this but there is no reason, with the introduction of new ships into the game, why the pirates could not or should not have one or two specialised ships. If the pirates are going to get some sort of carrier to explain their presence in certain locations then why not give them a dedicated smuggling ship. You don't have to see many, just one every now and then.

[Sunfire]

One thing I would like to say is don't forget that this is all Science Fiction and traditionally a lot of explanations don't make sense or have to make sence. I think sometimes we C21st people try to explain too much from the future of our primitive terms. Certain things work in the C27th that our present-day technology just simply doesn't have an explanation for. I, for one don't mind a bit of "magitech" in my sci-fi.....Remember, if it works, don't fix it.......but by all means make it better...hahahahahaha

i do... which is why im leery of touching that nest of radioactive vipers 'with freakin lazers on their heads' with a 20 ft pole... obviously im more of a fan of 'hard' sci-fi than some... but i can let alot of things slide for gameplay (well.. as long as the plot makes sense )

...dedicated smuggling ship. You don't have to see many, just one every now and then.

really.. you probably wouldnt see ANY... theyre smugglers, they run off-lane and silent... their whole survival depends on their NOT being seen... but maybe they could get a cameo or two in a campagin, or maybe you only see them when youre running silent and in the AF... or even.. only when youre aligned with pirates... (tho it would be nice to blast a smuggling ship now and then and pick up the motherlode of contraband )

[z30]

It just has to blend in as a merchanter but be faster, have stronger shields & more weaponry. Think Millenium Falcon which is just a souped up Corellian freighter.

It's hard to refer to corellians - their balance shows no straight canonity according to different sources. While in the movie the MF barely survives the attack of a handful TIEs, there are several video games which present it either as a virtually defended merchant, or as a turreted godship. However, I don't think the pirates would use special ships for different purposes. They need a single ship which ultimatively fills the gap between smuggling and looting.

Point taken on the MF & SW canon - this is something I'd like to avoid for our mod.

Human nature being as it is, the pirate squad leader would tend to have a better ship than his henchmen. Also, while a squad of small Talons could probably gut a privately owned space yacht - a Drayman merchanter would be another story.

Talons face a greater disadvantage than stronger fighters with regards to the equation of more cargo = less agility specially if unexpectedly jumped on by militia or confeds.

I have no objections to a dedicated smugling /looting ship -maybe the Cutlass which is promising to be a very popular raider. Such ships though would be expensive & require more maintenance to keep running. Not every pirate group would have one.

So a pirate Drayman does make sense. Chuck, I know the number of modelers we have is very limited but I was thinking that a pirate Free Trader ship would also be appropriate for better equipped pirate clans operating in dangerous zones (higher density of militia & confeds).

[z30]

Maybe that could be a good use for the Cutlass; have smuggling pirates flying Cutlasses at huge speed, silent mode. Just once in a while

Nice! like that urban legend of the drug running lambroghini: completely blacked out car, ran only at night and the driver used night vision... got caught by authoritys becuase he kept tripping the radar gun at 200 mph, and the cop never saw anything...

I think that if the Cutlass could be given a special ability to mask or fake ID (as well as special silent running ability) - this would set it up as the anti-thesis of the Centurion.

[Orthuberra]

One thing I would like to say is don't forget that this is all Science Fiction and traditionally a lot of explanations don't make sense or have to make sence. I think sometimes we C21st people try to explain too much from the future of our primitive terms. Certain things work in the C27th that our present-day technology just simply doesn't have an explanation for. I, for one don't mind a bit of "magitech" in my sci-fi.....Remember, if it works, don't fix it.......but by all means make it better...hahahahahaha

I like Zool's point here, I'd like to also point out that 30 years ago most of the personal nouns in this conversation would have carried no meaning for almost everyone (star wars being released 30 years ago last week), 40 years ago this discussion wouldn't have been possible, & 140 years ago many of the words being used in this discussion along with the machines we're using to have it wouldn't have been words in English language.

So fast forward 650 years into the future and wonder what they might know, & what words are used to describe those things. Just my two cents.

[Dilloh]

One can assume that the Talon in PO did this but there is no reason, with the introduction of new ships into the game, why the pirates could not or should not have one or two specialised ships. If the pirates are going to get some sort of carrier to explain their presence in certain locations then why not give them a dedicated smuggling ship. You don't have to see many, just one every now and then.

It's not "giving", it's "where do they get it from". Note that according to WC history, Menesch is selling confederate ships to various factions. Retros seem to get Talons from him. The Pirates as well IMO, for they are usually more wealthy and nicer business partners than Retros. So, Pirates buy their ships from corrupt officials. Why would the Confederation built a ship with large cargo space, tractor mounts and fast speed? The Pirates need to build that ship on their own. Assumably they are not capable of building ships, else they wouldn't still fly around in Talons, see? Which brings in a new player who is throwing the Cutlass into pirate rows - someone half pirate, half confed. Welcome back to the grey zone.

Human nature being as it is, the pirate squad leader would tend to have a better ship than his henchmen. Also, while a squad of small Talons could probably gut a privately owned space yacht - a Drayman merchanter would be another story.

Agreed, though refering to human nature of the pre-warp-era. In 2669, pirates live on bases and go out looting, just like 1000 years before. But 1000 years before, they all left on one ship. Now everybody has a fighter. Where do they get those fighters? See above. Where do you get better fighter or yachts? Only on the open market, as long as you don't create them for yourself. I fully agree that pirates should not be damned to fly around in Talons forever, but we need a really good stories how the pirates acquire their yachts, their Cutlasses, etc.

Talons face a greater disadvantage than stronger fighters with regards to the equation of more cargo = less agility specially if unexpectedly jumped on by militia or confeds.

Sure, but nevertheless, they are traditionally the only ships a pirate could acquire.

I have no objections to a dedicated smugling /looting ship -maybe the Cutlass which is promising to be a very popular raider. Such ships though would be expensive & require more maintenance to keep running. Not every pirate group would have one.

Ultimatively, allright!

I think that if the Cutlass could be given a special ability to mask or fake ID (as well as special silent running ability)

I think transpondering false IDs would be an offense to the intelligence of players - it is obvious that Cutlass classes are only used by pirates. I'd rather stick to the silent mode. Or, we'd change the radar principe so that long-range-scans only can catch transpondering signals, but no real info about shipclasses (sorry I haven't read the whole radar thread - maybe this is already discussed).

[z30]

I think that if the Cutlass could be given a special ability to mask or fake ID (as well as special silent running ability)

I think transpondering false IDs would be an offense to the intelligence of players - it is obvious that Cutlass classes are only used by pirates. I'd rather stick to the silent mode. Or, we'd change the radar principe so that long-range-scans only can catch transpondering signals, but no real info about shipclasses (sorry I haven't read the whole radar thread - maybe this is already discussed).

Actually that's the kicker - the Cutlass would show up as a Centurion on the target ship's ID ship image

By the time the merchanter visually identifies it - it's too late.

We can do it too - just swap the default Cutlass hud png file with the Centurion's.

[chuck_starchaser]

May I ask please not to make transponders hackable. Transponders are a nest of vipers you don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole. The moment you even acknowledge the possibility of hacking transponder codes you get a flood of hard to answer questions, like why doesn't everybody do it. We had a long-running thread about transponders in the WCU forum, after Hellcat decided to remove faction ID from the sensor VFD, which was a BAD move, from the point of view of gameplay, and was based on his argument that transponders would be so easy to hack they'd be useless. We tried to retcon the way transponders work in PO and WC and succeeded. I was just the other day writing about transponders in the Radar thread.
See here, below "WRT IFF":
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 2510#82510

[Sunfire]

not to... um... beat a dead horse... but look...
transponders are not the answers you seek... the transponder is not what tells you the ship type... its like this... if you go steal a license plate off a cop car, then put it on your own... does your beat up chevy nova magically transform into a cop car? think about what happens in the game... when someone opens fire on you, are they also really nice guys and change their transponder to 'hostile' for your ease in targeting them?

something about technology... yes... very much we do not know on what type of new develoments will be in the future and any speculation on them is mostly wishful thinking... however, did sir issac newtons 'discovery' of gravity mean that before he did his thing, nothing that you dropped ever fell to the ground? ('nice going issac... i USED to be able to fly...') if humans still live in 4 dimensions 600 years in the future... they will still be governed by thermodynamics and gravity. the EM spectrum will still exist... the speed of light will still be the speed of light whether or not mankind has found creative ways to go faster...
you may counter with.. well.. in columbus' time, they thought the world was flat...(600 years ago) wel... no they didnt...(that was an 18th century aristocratic revisionist history idea) it has been attributed to pythagoras that he figured out 2500 years ago that the world was round... and came pretty close to determining its actual diameter... and you can still get on a sailboat and sail from portugal to the west indies if you so desire...

[chuck_starchaser]

not to... um... beat a dead horse... but look...
transponders are not the answers you seek... the transponder is not what tells you the ship type... its like this... if you go steal a license plate off a cop car, then put it on your own... does your beat up chevy nova magically transform into a cop car? think about what happens in the game... when someone opens fire on you, are they also really nice guys and change their transponder to 'hostile' for your ease in targeting them?

I've already granted your point. Changing license plate to a cop car's license plate doesn't make your car a cops car. However it could make it look at first like a cop car to a computer that simply scans the license plate and pulls out a file; and we have to deal with the fact than in PO/WC this "changing license plates" simply does not happen.
And the fact that if we allowed it to happen, a lot of things would change.

So myself and others at the WCU forum simply retconned a way of explaining IFF so that it results in what we see in the original games. And the way this retcon works is by transponders being non-hackable, and only transmitting a unique ShipID. NOT your faction. NOT your ship model. *Just* a ship ID. It is then your NAV computer that looks up this ID in its database to retrieve the other information, such as the ship type, and the last known or apparent factional affiliation of its owner or pilot.
This information may be wrong or outdated, and your nav computer knows this, so the moment a "friendly" ship fires on you it reacts by engaging theater heuristics that override its database stuff; but this would rarely happen, as the info your nav computer collects is automatically shared with the distributed database as soon as you land, so the database is kept up to date for the most part.

[Dilloh]

Actually that's the kicker - the Cutlass would show up as a Centurion on the target ship's ID ship image

IMHO currently impossible. Even if you could tell the engine to change the HUD in silentmode, you cannot trick the camera... Hitting "v" or "F6" would show your foe in space, opening the map would show the real typo, as well as a communication. Many things to do. I'd rather - sorry again chuck - trick the engine by radar jamming (silent mode simulates lower emmissions by jamming enemy sensors), or a sort of holographic cloak, which actually transforms the Cutlass into a Centurion body, still leaving the problems with the other ways to ID the ship. However, if chuck things that can be done by hardcoding, I'd be as happy as you are.

We can do it too - just swap the default Cutlass hud png file with the Centurion's.

Sorry to say it, but that'd be the worst trick of all. The AI militia just doesn't care for your HUD. You could have Blair's face in your HUD, they'd still shoot you. It would be nothing more than a nice effect, but I already hear the bug reports "Cutlass has the wrong HUD".
[quote"chuck"]May I ask please not to make transponders hackable. Transponders are a nest of vipers you don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole. The moment you even acknowledge the possibility of hacking transponder codes you get a flood of hard to answer questions, like why doesn't everybody do it. We had a long-running thread about transponders in the WCU forum, after Hellcat decided to remove faction ID from the sensor VFD, which was a BAD move, from the point of view of gameplay, and was based on his argument that transponders would be so easy to hack they'd be useless. We tried to retcon the way transponders work in PO and WC and succeeded. I was just the other day writing about transponders in the Radar thread.[/quote]Okay, but now we need a new concept for silence mode.

think about what happens in the game... when someone opens fire on you, are they also really nice guys and change their transponder to 'hostile' for your ease in targeting them?

Interesting... maybe your radar is somewhat intelligent, using factors like your course, speed and overall behaviour to calculate your purposes. That'd explain why basic radars just can't read transponder signals - those signal's don't exist.

It is then your NAV computer that looks up this ID in its database to retrieve the other information, such as the ship type, and the last known or apparent factional affiliation of its owner or pilot.

So... a Cutlass on silent mode has stolen a plate then?

[Sunfire]

I've already granted your point.

heh... i know... i should have addressed that comment to everyone but chuck...

no offence meant! and i acknowledged that i was kicking that horse in the teeth... at the expense of my toes...

[chuck_starchaser]

@Sunfire: LOL

Okay, but now we need a new concept for silence mode.

No; in silent mode your transponder doesn't respond, period. In silent mode you won't see the ID's of other ships either, I imagine, as their transponders would only reply with ship ID upon inquiry, "inquiry" being active radar sweep.

think about what happens in the game... when someone opens fire on you, are they also really nice guys and change their transponder to 'hostile' for your ease in targeting them?

Interesting... maybe your radar is somewhat intelligent, using factors like your course, speed and overall behaviour to calculate your purposes. That'd explain why basic radars just can't read transponder signals - those signal's don't exist.

Indeed; I think part of the nav computer heuristics that can override the database would include speech recognition, so that someone threatening you would switch to red if it was blue before.

It is then your NAV computer that looks up this ID in its database to retrieve the other information, such as the ship type, and the last known or apparent factional affiliation of its owner or pilot.

So... a Cutlass on silent mode has stolen a plate then?

No, Dilloh; you're getting mixed up ; "stealing plates" --i.e.: hacking the transponder, would be nigh impossible. Sunfire's argument was that even doing so wouldn't do much for you; and that's true; but the fact remains it is not doable, since it's not done (in OP or WC). So just forget about stolen plates. Running in silent mode means that you don't beam out radar pulses; only listen for them from other ships. And in silent mode your transponder remains quiet as well.

[Zool]

It's not "giving", it's "where do they get it from".

How about running the explanation for pirates getting a better ship here and there something like this.

Several years ago, Confed had a brilliant chief engineer, Bo Ramshakel, who was under a lot of pressure from his Confed bossed to come up with new developments and designs to halt Kilrathi incursions into human border worlds (maybe even Gemini). Over time Bo is becoming more and more disgruntled with poor work conditions, excessive demands on his time and abilities and an ever decreasing budget to work with. (Sound familiar?? ) He is on the verge of a breakdown. Confed relents and allows him some personal time so he decides to head for the pleasure planet Jolson to experience the exotic delights and unwind. In order to pacify their prized designer Confed allows him to test pilot an unarmed Cutlass that Bo has just completed to a flyable stage of it's development. Whilst enroute to Jolson, Bo and his "never seen before" ship are spotted by pirates and they immediatly take up the chase. As Bo's ship is not 100%, he is quickly disabled and captured and questioned about his ship. Because of Bo's distressed and stressed mental state and dissatisfaction with Confed, a little time and negotiation, a deal is reached between Bo and the pirates. They will give him anything he wants if he will finish the ship for them and if possible build more. Bo agrees, and is moved to a very secret pirate base to continue his work with all the comforts and equipment and supplies he needs.
As the pirates have limited facilities, production is very slow, so there are only one, two or maybe even three cutlasses by now. Pirates have to keep raiding constantly to get parts to be converted to suitable parts for their new ships. (this would allow for a slightly "slapdash" appearance and the low numbers of cutlass's).

OK there you have an idea to work on. Dilloh might even be able to come up with a mission set to track down and "recover" Bo Ramshakel. A long and twisted plot to locate him and then a battle with the base and a handful of newly completed cutlasses to win the day. As a reward you get one of the finished Cutlasses as long as you agree to register it with Confed of whatever Space DMV exists at the time.

PS, now that Bo is working for the pirates he can modify other ships like Draymans etc for pirate use. As he is the pirates ONLY engineer and all he has is mechanics to work with, everything they do takes a long time to do and numbers are VERY low.

Wow, there's my creative genius used up for the next six months....hahahahaha

Running in silent mode means that you don't beam out radar pulses; only listen for them from other ships. And in silent mode your transponder remains quiet as well.

Is this sort of thing heading towards another "cloak" issue? whereby the whole idea gets scrapped after a while because it gives players TOO MUCH of an edge.

What about some sort of onboard device that enables the cutlass (if that is the ship going to be used) to temporarily blot it's own blip off the players radar for a few seconds, then it's back on the radar and off again. And with this, any weapons lock is also lost. Think Strakha's from WC3 (or whatever those pesky cloaked Kilrathi ships were).....on, then off, then on, then off.[/i]

[chuck_starchaser]

Running in silent mode means that you don't beam out radar pulses; only listen for them from other ships. And in silent mode your transponder remains quiet as well.

Is this sort of thing heading towards another "cloak" issue? whereby the whole idea gets scrapped after a while because it gives players TOO MUCH of an edge.

No. Quoting myself, from the Active/Passive Radar thread:

Game-play benefits of Active/Passive mode Radar:

The benefit is that having the choice is terrifying in and of itself. It's the kind of choice that makes you chew your fingers to the bone: The moment you turn your active radar on, even for a split second, you are advertising your position to the whole world, even very far away. You might have avoided those bogies in the asteroid field altogether, but if you succumbed to the temptation to turn active mode on, now they know where you are and can start flying in your general direction. So even if you switch back to passive mode, chances are they will now be able to come close enough to you to see you with their active radar even if you are back in passive mode.
[But...] Flying all the time in passive mode is very risky too. In a way, you have an advantage if the bogies are in active mode, as there's good chances they are not seeing you, but you are seeing them. However, it is impossible, in passive radar mode, to know for sure whether they see you or not, because it depends on range, but you don't know their range in passive mode. And there's an even greater danger in flying in passive mode: If they did see you and are coming for you, they could also switch to passive mode, and now mutual detection is totally reliant on visual spotting. And the ultimate danger in passive mode: A bogie could just be flying in passive mode also, and neither one sees the other until you have visual contact.
So the descision whether to use passive mode, and when to switch to active mode, is a gut wrenching dilemma that's always there. Without making the game easier or more difficult, this choice makes it 10 times as immersive.

To summarize the disadvantages of passive (silent) mode radar:
1) You can't tell how far other ships are.
2) You can't tell their faction or whether they are friendly or hostile.
3) You can't tell whether they see you.
4) You can't tell if they are moving towards you.
5) You can't detect another ship flying in passive mode also except by engine noise, at fairly close range; and at no range at all if the engines are off.
6) You can't lock another ship without switching to active mode
7) You can't use ECM or any kind of jammers without switching to active mode
You'll draw attention to yourself from militias

What about some sort of onboard device that enables the cutlass (if that is the ship going to be used) to temporarily blot it's own blip off the players radar for a few seconds, then it's back on the radar and off again. And with this, any weapons lock is also lost. Think Strakha's from WC3 (or whatever those pesky cloaked Kilrathi ships were).....on, then off, then on, then off.[/i]

You are partially describing 'cloak". That would indeed "give players TOO MUCH of an edge".

EDIT: Throw in one more thing:

9) You can't Auto in silent mode, or dock, for that matter; though you can jump; but if you use afterburner, in silent mode, you give away your presence and general direction, if not your ID or faction or range.

[Zool]

Thanks Chuck, I get it better now. Sorry for needing double explanations but I'm limited in my internet time so I tend to fall behind in the posts when there's been a lot of the to go through.

I guess the big question is "Can you make it all work the way you want?"

Oh and just for the record I'm happy with the radar as it is now but if you want to change it then be my guest.

[chuck_starchaser]

Thanks Chuck, I get it better now. Sorry for needing double explanations but I'm limited in my internet time so I tend to fall behind in the posts when there's been a lot of the to go through.

Same here; sometimes I can't cope, between forum posts and emails; and not just this forum... So I totally understand.

I guess the big question is "Can you make it all work the way you want?"

That'll be the million dollar question. I'm working on armor, presently; which I thought was going to be easy. Once I'm done with that, I'll start looking at radar and we shall see. I think it's going to take some time to get the most basic silent mode working. And then comes the bigger problem: AI. We'll need to get the AI's to be sensitive to seeing a ship's afterburners' signature without being able to tell its range or faction. And then each type of AI will have to decide what to do about it. We'll need also to make AI's make use of silent mode. We'll need strategies that incorporate use of silent mode. We'll need to think about what an IFF missile does about a silent mode target. Etceteras. PLUS, there need to be changes to the way sensor data is displayed. Grey dots for ships detected in silent mode? With visual display but without HUD icon or range info?
ALSO, disabling ECM and docking when silent mode is engaged...
A ton of work, but worth it, in my experience (playing TFX).

[Sunfire]

I guess the big question is "Can you make it all work the way you want?"

That'll be the million dollar question. I think it's going to take some time to get the most basic silent mode working.

i would suggest a slightly different implementation... lol but i wont get into it too much in this thread as i covered it quite a bit in the other... but i will say one thing about implementation... for simplicity of implementation in the first pass, breaking any 'rule' will just make you active (ie: AB) oh.. and FF missles will hit any silent target thats close enough... but you have to be active to fire them... (youd be painting them with radar then) and as i said in the other thread.. in game cannon says you see in 3 bands... vis, IR and RF so, any passive ship you see would give you a hud image... but no ID... oh.. ok and one more thing... in passive you would in theory know a targets speed and direction relative to you because of doppler shift..

oh.. and sorry if i posted more than ppl have time to read... lol sometimes i get going... and REALLY get going...

[chuck_starchaser]

breaking any 'rule' will just make you active (ie: AB) oh.. and FF missles will hit any silent target thats close enough... but you have to be active to fire them... (youd be painting them with radar then)

Good ideas. Well, actually, not sure... AB turning your radar on doesn't really make much sense. Besides, it still may make sense to use AB in silent mode; you're giving away your presence, but not who you are. We shouldn't assume that all AI's will be programmed to attack anything that moves. And as for FF missiles, it depends whether we are willing to tolerate friendly fire accidents. Your painting a target is only relevant at the moment you fire the missile. If the missile loses lock, that's where the question comes in: should it target silent units, without knowing whether they are friend or foe?
It seems to me FF missiles will lose popularity relative to IR (Image Recognition, in WC parlance).

and as i said in the other thread.. in game cannon says you see in 3 bands... vis, IR and RF so, any passive ship you see would give you a hud image...

No, it would give you visual image, but not HUD image. "HUD image" is the schematic representation of the ship. Ah, wait a minute!... You're right, image recognition software working from the telescopic visual images should still be able to identify ship type, even without transponder ID to look up.

one more thing... in passive you would in theory know a targets speed and direction relative to you because of doppler shift..

Doppler shift of what though?

[Sunfire]

Good ideas. Well, actually, not sure... AB turning your radar on doesn't really make much sense. Besides, it still may make sense to use AB in silent mode; you're giving away your presence, but not who you are. We shouldn't assume that all AI's will be programmed to attack anything that moves.

youre right of course... but i was suggesting this as a first pass implementation only... youre either active, or passive... no in between... but now that i think about it... youre even more right... lol... you effectively become a passive radar blip on everybodys screen... (actually i may have said something similar to this in the other thread... lol ) but i was thinking along these lines more as a detrement for gameplay... dont want you ABing it all over the place... kind of defeats the concept of 'silent' mode and ABs make you 'not silent' meaning everybody knows your presence... heh... so youre in a 'grey zone'

And as for FF missiles, it depends whether we are willing to tolerate friendly fire accidents. Your painting a target is only relevant at the moment you fire the missile. If the missile loses lock, that's where the question comes in: should it target silent units, without knowing whether they are friend or foe?

well.. from the standpoint of IFF beacons... yes.. it should if they're in range... as the compy doesnt know thier affiliation and unknowns are 'not friendly' also, see opeining scene of OP now... from a gameplay perspective... this also would make sense... if someone targets you with FF missles, and all you have to do to break lock is turn off your beacons... FF missles would never be used again... HOWEVER, i would limit this ability only to ships In Range of the missle, (meaning passives that are already known to you) and as FF missiles in game always go for the nearest 'hostile' (ie not friendly) there should be a few ships around to choose from when you loose one of those puppys...

image recognition software working from the telescopic visual images should still be able to identify ship type, even without transponder ID to look up.

yup, might not show damage tho... but as soon as you know a ship is there... you can turn all antennas to it (meaning optical as well)
hrms... i hadnt really thought about how you know how damaged the other ship is... hmm... maybe close range radar can extrapolate armor thickness? compy estimation of shots taken? in OP enemy ship's hulls are either red or green... no mention of internal systems or remaining armor... just that theyre in bad shape or completely ok...

Doppler shift of what though?

take your pick of emission signal.... it works thru the whole spectrum... i can go into further detail if you want... but you would NOT know range...

[Sunfire]

It seems to me FF missiles will lose popularity relative to IR (Image Recognition, in WC parlance).

HEY! no editing in stuff when im replying!

ok.. what is the purpose of FF's? to occupy swarming hostiles... they require no lock, and will go after the nearest hostile... which in a dogfight is either the bogey in your sights, or the one on your 6

IR requires a lock time... and will only go after the ship you lock it on, but its better than HS as you can fire it from any angle, and if it misses on first pass, it will seek its target back out... but you cant use it as an 'extra wingman' if youre getting swamped...

[chuck_starchaser]

Uh, never mind, just lack of sleep. I was thinking FF's would become less interesting if they could hit friendlies flying in silent mode; but you wouldn't be in silent mode during an engagement, anyways.

[micheal_andreas_stahl]

Well i can't remember the last thing i was going to write, But, here i go.

Please DON'T make radars hackable. I have thought about what you (Chuck) said. And it makes sense when you thik about it.

Yeah Silant Mode would be the same as Passive mode. Though i think the difference would be SM would be harder to detect than PM. If Cap Ships (like Drayman) have stronger radars, and i think thay should be able to detect anyone on SM. And any ship SHOULD be able to pick someone else on SM if say you around a jump point as your closer.

What about some sort of onboard device that enables the cutlass (if that is the ship going to be used) to temporarily blot it's own blip off the players radar for a few seconds, then it's back on the radar and off again. And with this, any weapons lock is also lost. Think Strakha's from WC3 (or whatever those pesky cloaked Kilrathi ships were).....on, then off, then on, then off.[/i]

Civilian ships should not be able to cloak. SM is different from cloak as you are still detectable. For a Military Ship like the Kat Cloaking Bomber, that is not sustanable in a larger scale thing as the ship would be harder and more expesive to mantain.

9) You can't Auto in silent mode... Cuts out bit not needed ... though you can jump; but if you use afterburner, in silent mode, you give away your presence and general direction, if not your ID or faction or range.

This is the only part of your posts that i don't agree. Autoing is the only and fastest war to travel in-sys. For AI it's Ok, but for a human it's annoying. I did a test. I decided to not use Auto. It would 5 mins from Helen, Troy to Jump Penders Star, Troy. 7 mins from jump Troy, Penders Star to Jump Junction, pypassing AF. So on, so forth. It would take to long.

Now i can go back to the Atomic Forum to see who has bought me now.

[Dilloh]

Running in silent mode means that you don't beam out radar pulses; only listen for them from other ships. And in silent mode your transponder remains quiet as well.

Okay then, so we have a sort of emmision cloak. But I don't see the connection to z30's idea of having the appearance of a Hunter Centurion while sitting in a Pirate Cutlass - is this impossible, talking about realism or canonity?

As Bo's ship is not 100%, he is quickly disabled and captured and questioned about his ship.

Capturing is okay to me, but I think pirates are in for quick money. It's hard to believe they have the perception to plan about the future. Not impossible, though.

OK there you have an idea to work on. Dilloh might even be able to come up with a mission set to track down and "recover" Bo Ramshakel. A long and twisted plot to locate him and then a battle with the base and a handful of newly completed cutlasses to win the day. As a reward you get one of the finished Cutlasses as long as you agree to register it with Confed of whatever Space DMV exists at the time.

You just gave me a reason to experiment with branching stories.

PS, now that Bo is working for the pirates he can modify other ships like Draymans etc for pirate use. As he is the pirates ONLY engineer and all he has is mechanics to work with, everything they do takes a long time to do and numbers are VERY low.

There's a problem with the engine though: I can tell the engine to lock a ship for the player until the ship is being unlocked in a mission, but the AI have their flightgroups from the beginning - from my current state of knowledge, the cutlass among with other inventions by Bo would fly around just from the beginning. So we'd need to jump into this story at a point where Bo already worked for the pirates.

Is this sort of thing heading towards another "cloak" issue? whereby the whole idea gets scrapped after a while because it gives players TOO MUCH of an edge.

Still, we already have some technical requirements in the engine: I can set up a modified cloak which doesn't make the ship invisible, but puts it away from the radar. You could still hit afterburners though.

What about some sort of onboard device that enables the cutlass (if that is the ship going to be used) to temporarily blot it's own blip off the players radar for a few seconds, then it's back on the radar and off again. And with this, any weapons lock is also lost. Think Strakha's from WC3 (or whatever those pesky cloaked Kilrathi ships were).....on, then off, then on, then off.

I already experimented with temporary cloaking while I made the Fireblade - my concept was to make the cloak use energy or fuel, so that the reactor/fuel reserves would deplete after about 10 seconds. Well, it didn't work. As soon as the fuel/energy was consumpted, the ship just didn't decloak, plus couldn't be decloaked any more until you landed on a base.

PLUS, there need to be changes to the way sensor data is displayed.

You could tell in a script to load a new cockpit in silent mode - looking just the same, but the MFDs wouldn't be transparent any more, so no HUDs on the display. But that's a semi-solution. Hitting F6 still would show your enemies. Silent mode could be a bit too difficult to realize, I fear.

AB turning your radar on doesn't really make much sense.

You once posted that ABs in SM would make you glow like a christmas tree. Your computer would realize you broke the rule, and therefor go to active mode since you're detected anyway.

And as for FF missiles, it depends whether we are willing to tolerate friendly fire accidents.

Btw - suggest to alter the HS so it can detect SM ships

[z30]

Running in silent mode means that you don't beam out radar pulses; only listen for them from other ships. And in silent mode your transponder remains quiet as well.

Okay then, so we have a sort of emmision cloak. But I don't see the connection to z30's idea of having the appearance of a Hunter Centurion while sitting in a Pirate Cutlass - is this impossible, talking about realism or canonity?

If the targetted ship image ID in the pilots' cockpit depends on a "guess" based on the reflected radar waves & the ship transponder ID - then an active radar sweep would just show a blip (ie ship in silent mode).

You don't know what it is, or whether it's friend or foe.

This would probably be the condition where the chameleon trick would work - your computer would be fooled into seeing a Centurion running in silent mode.