Cargo and such

[Melonhead]

I suppose we could also assume that by "Plutonium," the game really means "spent reactor fuel." That would explain why refineries want it, even if the description doesn't make it clear. Most sci-fi just assumes we'll be using fusion reactors by the 27th century, but there's certainly no guarantee.

Additionally, if it's spent reactor fuel, it makes it more believable that civilian ships can haul it--hard to believe the Confeds or the Kilrathi would want just anyone running around with weapons-grade stuff. That was why I thought about making it contraband--even the Retros might not like you having weapons grade Plutonium in your hold.

Here's a thought--the average pilot isn't going to have the equipment to tell whether the radioactive stuff he's hauling is spent fuel or weapons grade, but the Confeds and Militia might. I can't tell by looking at units.csv, but is there a way to make contraband that is very unlikely to be detected? In that case, just declare it contraband in units.csv, but don't "tell" the player--every once in a while, he gets a nasty surprise when he discovers he's hauling something that doesn't quite match the manifest.

[Dilloh]

From Wing Commander CIC:

Plutonium is the main fueling ingredient for most jump engines in TCN fleets. It sounds like plutonium is the actuel fuel, but it could be some sort of resource for construction as well or instead.

...which doesn't explain why or how plutonium is "spawned" at mining bases, since there are no large natural plutonium depots to be expected in space, and the artificial creation can be considered as a job rather suitable for refineries.

While almost all plutonium is manufactured synthetically, extremely tiny trace amounts are found naturally in uranium ores.

This explains at least why uranium needs to be processed at refineries, so I think it can be kept as a pure mining base to refinery product. Since "natural" plutonium could therefor be extracted from uranium within the mining bases, it would also be okay to be sold there. It is so valuable for the refineries because the refining process is much shorter and cheaper then, still the amount of available plutonium to available uranium at mining bases is completely unrelative to the natural occurence, if we take always the same cargo masses as a base.

Since 1945, approximately 7700 kg has been released onto Earth through nuclear explosions.

So we know that a nuclear reaction can have the valuable plutonium as an end product. Where do we get what we need for the reaction? At mining bases! Where do most nuclear tests in history occur? Under the sea or in abandoned mines. Mankind in 2669 is smart enough to not create that many reactions on inhabited planets any more, so they evade to the low-populated, naturally well-shielded tunnels inside of the mining bases instead of building breeders with expensive shielding technology - which would also be a military target since there would only be few ones within fed space. Plus, the large number of mining bases ensures a tight supply network for that.

Additionally, if it's spent reactor fuel, it makes it more believable that civilian ships can haul it--hard to believe the Confeds or the Kilrathi would want just anyone running around with weapons-grade stuff. That was why I thought about making it contraband--even the Retros might not like you having weapons grade Plutonium in your hold.

Since CIC has given a good and obviously canon explanation for the usage of plutonium, I don't think that there's a need to explain more.

Mining base => Uranium => Nuclear reaction => Plutonium => Refinery => Jump fuel

or

Mining base => Uranium => Traces of natural plutonium => Refinery => Jump fuel

Here's a thought--the average pilot isn't going to have the equipment to tell whether the radioactive stuff he's hauling is spent fuel or weapons grade, but the Confeds and Militia might. I can't tell by looking at units.csv, but is there a way to make contraband that is very unlikely to be detected? In that case, just declare it contraband in units.csv, but don't "tell" the player--every once in a while, he gets a nasty surprise when he discovers he's hauling something that doesn't quite match the manifest.

I've taken a brief look at possibly relevant files, but I found out nothing. But I guess that there's either contraband sold at pirate bases or legal stuff. Still, plutonium could be put on the list and so be available at mining bases as well as pirate bases - but I don't think that mining bases could afford selling such contraband. And who would be your customer? "Normal" contraband, bought by people at any base, is just luxury goods which is forbidden. Those caring for radioactive materials are currently just the bad guys sitting at Gaea.

[Melonhead]

Since 1945, approximately 7700 kg has been released onto Earth through nuclear explosions.

That's Plutonium that was part of the weapon itself and used to create the explosion. Plutonium in quantity is created as a byproduct of Uranium-based reactors, and extracted from the spent fuel to be used in weapon construction. With breeder reactors (like France uses), you actually get more fission fuel out than you started with. Very cool, except that the fuel you get out is Plutonium, which is much easier to make into nuclear weapons than if you started with natural Uranium and have to enrich it. The amount of "natural" Plutonium found with Uranium is vanishingly small. It decays too quickly.

Still, I think we're close enough--mining bases would use fission reactors, since they are located in asteroid belts far from their central star. Ag bases would not use reactors, since any planet capable of supporting large crops would also be able to use solar, wind, etc. If there's been plant life on them for millions of years, ag planets would also have oil/coal--handy for making plastic. (I'm not sure what you would use to make plastic if you didn't start with oil.)

Plutonium "waste" is shipped to refineries to be manufactured into fuel rods. Uranium ore is shipped, as well. Only thing missing is "processed nuclear fuel" to be shipped back to mining bases and you have a complete trade cycle.

Regarding contraband, I was thinking Retros, Kilrathi, and other bad actors. Probably unnecessary.

[Dilloh]

Those fuels would be "Advanced Fuels". I think we sould forget about the 1 cargo unit mass = 1 other cargo unit mass, so forget about 1kg food = 1kg slaves. If Advanced Fuels come in much lower weight (and also lower price), you got it.

Concerning Kilrathi: I think they are capapble enough for themselves to make their own fuel.

Concerning Retros: Nuclear raw materials in 2669 can be isolated with a labor set for children.

Concerning Nuclear Weapons: Might be very unattractive in 2669, Bio weapons might be much more advanced, safe and "popular"

[Melonhead]

Regarding advanced fuels, I hadn't thought about that, since the description sort of implies some type of aviation liquid fuel--but it doesn't really say that, and if canon is that Plutonium forms a basis for our ship's reactors, then advanced fuels would certainly fit the bill. But, that still means we'd want mining bases to pay a good price, since they have a need.

I definitely agree about cargo densities. I have finished going through the existing cargos, changing their mass and volumes to "correct" values and then play-testing them to see how they work. (I love the things you can look up online.) I've concluded that the values in master_parts_list.csv need to be hectograms, not kilograms, in order to get good playability. I've also tweaked the passenger cargo values a little to make them more realistic. Those are in the units.csv I posted previously--it should work with the latest PU mod, and feedback on playability would be appreciated! The next step is to figure out the prices, quantities, and variabilities at each base. I'm about 2/3 through that--it'll be easier to modify units.csv one base at a time instead of one cargo type at a time, so I'm calculating them all before I modify units.csv.

[micheal_andreas_stahl]

Uranium is a sort of coolent on the earth so you could also it on some planets.

[Melonhead]

Coolant? I'm not sure I understand your statement.

It would, in all likelihood, be found on most planets. It's formed in supernova explosions, so it ends up in any large body. I assume WC/Privateer mines metals in asteroid belts because it's easier to get at them.

[Melonhead]

On a slightly different cargo angle, what is the general consensus on making passengers available for carriage at the Commodity Exchange, in addition to missions?

In this case, the "purchase price" would actually be a bond posted by the player to help ensure he doesn't enslave the passengers, so we'd probably want to tweak the base prices in master_parts_list. The "sell price" would define the profit made. First class and business class passengers would require more than 1 cubic meter of cargo space, so the profit per passenger would be higher, since you could carry fewer.

We'd basically implement it by creating two passenger types--outbound from core locations such as New Con, Perry, Oxford, and ND, and inbound to these locations. One problem I see with this concept is the idea of passengers being willing to go "anywhere," since all other base are the same. But, it would take way too many combinations, otherwise. Alternatively, service could run only between the core locations, and passengers would have to charter your ship through the mission computer to get to other destinations.

This would be really easy to implement, but I don't want to do it if I'm the only one who likes the idea. Thoughts? Comments?

[Shissui]

On a slightly different cargo angle, what is the general consensus on making passengers available for carriage at the Commodity Exchange, in addition to missions? :?:

Uranium cargo is more tolerant of combat manoeuvers than a paying passenger would be. The pilot should have the profit on subsequent passenger cargo devalued by 1% for every second of afterburner &/or gunfire while enroute -- due to bad press.

A simpler way might be to implement this as a "passenger faction". They don't like you killing anything, but will improve relations +1 everytime you land at a different port. Then, use the faction relation value as a modifier for proffit. If you are at -100, then yes, you really should be paying the passenger more than you collect -- you are clearly not a safe carrier.

--> It might be easier just not to offer passenger cargo at all ?

[Melonhead]

A passenger faction is an interesting idea, but beyond my current skills. I'm flexible either way. Mostly, I got to thinking about it as an extension of the idea to make it profitable to rescue pilots.

If people aren't certain, I could simply add passengers between the major worlds and let folks play test it. If it's not working, deleting them would be easy enough. The only big question would be "how much profit should each class generate?"

[Shissui]

If people aren't certain, I could simply add passengers between the major worlds and let folks play test it. If it's not working, deleting them would be easy enough. The only big question would be "how much profit should each class generate?"

A much simpler implementation --

1. Passengers occur only as a cargo mission. Passengers purchased on the open market are either "slave" or "pilot" cargo.

2. If you take any damage past shields while executing a Passenger mission, you fail the mission.

3. Passenger missions need to pay enough that it is better not to enslave them.

[Dilloh]

2. If you take any damage past shields while executing a Passenger mission, you fail the mission.

That would be definetively a code-related alternation. I see no other chance here.