Game within a Game

Forum For Privateer Remake
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Game within a Game

Post by micheal_andreas_stahl »

Is it possible to have a game within a game? like on Grand Theft Auto?
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Post by ace123 »

Depends what you mean... Seems like this is only practical within the limittations of the engine.

I haven't played Grand Theft, so I don't know exactly what you mean.

Are you talking about something like the 2-D base system, which pretty much has a completely separate input/output loop from the rest of the game?

It certainly would be possible to do a minigame within space, though I don't see how it could connect to the plot... I suppose something like a racing game on a racetrack would be possible.
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Post by Draken Stark »

I think it's where you can do something (Say walk up to an arcade machine in-game and press "enter/A") to access literally another game. (like start playing pac-man when you're actually playing a game like GTA)

I haven't played the game really either I'm just giving possible examples on what I would think the topic is/means... Prey has a very good example of this at the begining of the game just about...
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Post by micheal_andreas_stahl »

Something like what Draken Stark said. Basicly you could have an Arcade Machine that you could walk up to and start playing a game. it would have to be VERY simple.
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Post by spiritplumber »

Like the simulator in WC1 (and Prophecy)?
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Post by OnyxPaladin »

Draken Stark hit the nail pretty much right on the head. I've played many of the GTA games and games similar in simplicity to pacman is what's available. Though in San Andreas you can also play pool.
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Post by micheal_andreas_stahl »

I would like to see something like taht.
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Post by Dilloh »

That's also content I would like to see at the Modding Page if you guys are interested.

What would you think about Pleasure Planets having casinos? Gambling with credits at a roulette table could be fun, still the ability to load and save would make this sidegame senseless, so we would need some sort of ticket which allows you to only play for a certain time per base visit.

Every base could have a function like this. Creating additional "rooms" is quite easy.
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Post by Draken Stark »

lol... Yea... lets not get too over the head here... I mean... who'd want the "Girls" part of a pleasure planet available as a "minigame". <.<...

Had to point it out lmao... but sure... why not just use the save feature of the actual game for the casino? I mean... we don't need a stand alone save feature on the casino. You win some credits, SAVE! Otherwise, what would you be saving anyway? It's not like you could go into a casino and reload your previous credit amount and leave to go buy another ship... Hope that makes sense <.<;;

So I don't think we need to have saving for just an extra room, if the room is worth visiting then you'll probably get something you want saved into your main save file. Otherwise, it's kind of pointless... If anyone has ever played Jet Force Gemini and have seen it's in-game games, you used the in-game credits to be able to play the arcades there. Granted, the arcades may have been fun, but other than unlocking stuff for multiplayer they were completely useless... (Aside of course the item you got for beating the games... which otherwise was only good for bragging rights when it comes to "anything useful" in the single player part of the game. <.<)

Hope I didn't go too off topic, but I think that if there's going to be anything additional it should either be "exclusive", meaning only for PR, or something you'll benefit from. Say the ability to earn a side quest, some more credits, or a secret weapon... Something that makes someone want to go there other than the fact "it's new", so that they'll visit more than to just check it out (like a real store, they'll try to stock things that are deemed most useful so they sell more and get attention.).

Again... one more point. I've seen so many "add-ons" to games where they try to make the add-on something stand alone... Don't do that! If you want it to be stand alone in any way make it into a separate game! Don't make an add-on for the sake of only to feed off of the fandom of a another game. There... I said it... had too... lol ...But if you do want a game to work off another game, it'd be a good idea for the game to at least be the same pace as what it's in. (Note: the pacing of Jet Force Gemini was met well with Jeff n' Berry's (can't remember the name really, been too long) Racing arcade games.)
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Post by Dilloh »

Not to steal the idea, but I already thought of something special like Draken proposed.

I'd like to call the thing Lynch's Casino. As I mentioned, you can gamble. After RF begun, the casino has closed and a Militia officer guards the entrance, giving you the mission to find Lynch who is accused.

By now, you maybe could find some guys telling you how Lynch made it to Basque - by using the cloaking device. Instead of leaving him to the Militia (who don't offer a bounty at all), you keep the cloak because Lynch could tell the Militia that you got the cloak.

This would require the following modding:
- A New Constantinopel entrance for the casino (Artwork & Scripting)
- The sidegame itself (roulette, slot machine, etc.)
- Campaign scripting: New guys, conversation, fixer artwork
- Text changes to Post-RF-Lynch
- Change to the Moment of Inertia for Lynch

Just a proposition.
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Post by Draken Stark »

Dilloh wrote:Not to steal the idea, but I already thought of something special like Draken proposed...
Hey there's no problem here that I can see with "stealing" ideas comes to mind. To me this has the potential of just being a brainstorming thread. The only thing I'm worried about is what actually makes it into the game. If it's something horrific I'd try to argue a point... Brainstorming... There's no credit to go to anyone other than the person who decides to add the content and anyone who they want to give honor too. Anyway... what I'm saying is, that I would love to have my name in the credits :) but I know that I'm (if anything) just a fan that wants to see this game become something great and I'd be only happy to pitch in ideas that may help. Being raised by games since I was five, I have seen a lot of games and experienced how add-on games did and worked. One thing I've really learned... You play games to have fun, not to do something that'd make you feel like you're at a day job... There are really only two kinds of games that usually work (usually combined together) and that's action games (like Unreal Tournament) or games that make you think (like chess). Privateer is kind of like those both put together in a sci-fi setting so it's unique and fun on its own.

What I'm saying is that if you want to add something that'll stick to PR... you need to match the kind of game that PR is in order for it to be just as fun or better. I personally think a casino could work, if it's done right. If the casino works too slowly or can't shuffle enough cash to earn worthwhile doe (or too fast, it'd be like using a cheat code...), people will get bored and want to go back to blowing shit up in space for not only possibly faster cash flow but to also have more fun again. I'm just expressing my concern here for the addition of something that'll change the way the game flows in a bad way and just be a catastrophe.

Just saying, it'd be great to have something new to do other than scouting and blowing stuff up in space. It'd be a nice change in setting and act as a break from the "outside" while still bringing in the same cashflow. It's just that if any add-on isn't done with consideration it'll be a failure and possibly make PR worse overall.

And for the record... any of my "ideas" are usually just examples... I'd be happy if anything I say is done or used in a game anyways ^^ it'd still be an honor to me even if I'm not given credit for anything. I plan on going into game development sometime so anything that goes is good as a learning experience.

Hope I didn't scare anyone off as I think I have. Anything seeing worthwhile is worth trying. Just anyone who wants to add something into PR needs to test how it's going to do before they release it. >.< Hope I've made sense out of all that.
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Post by OnyxPaladin »

Draken Stark wrote:There are really only two kinds of games that usually work (usually combined together) and that's action games (like Unreal Tournament) or games that make you think (like chess). Privateer is kind of like those both put together in a sci-fi setting so it's unique and fun on its own.
Sounds like you should play System Shock 2 sometime.
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Post by Badger »

I seem to remember that in WC1's manual, there is a page advertising dancers (regular and zero-g) in the ships lounge. I was very frustrated when I discovered there is no show. New Detroit could use something like that, with either live human dancers, or the Plaything. :D
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Post by micheal_andreas_stahl »

I DO NOT want to see anything to do with sex or gambling
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Post by Dilloh »

You play games to have fun, not to do something that'd make you feel like you're at a day job...
You talk about your wish to go into game developement. I'm working as a male nurse with handicapped people day and night. I love to play "lil' modder" in my free time, because at work I don't do anything like that. Sure, working with computers or even games makes priv modding really boring. For others like me it is fun and it can even advance your knowledge not only about vegastrike, but even about how the whole thing works.
If the casino works too slowly or can't shuffle enough cash to earn worthwhile doe (or too fast, it'd be like using a cheat code...), people will get bored and want to go back to blowing shit up in space for not only possibly faster cash flow but to also have more fun again.
And that's the reason why it will be nothing more than a mod. You'll have the ability to choose if you want it or not, as well as you have the ability to hack your shields. Privateer Remake is easy to mod, and that is an opportunity for enhancing. Sure, there can be a lot of bullshit. I even think that ships like the GalaxyGS are too hard, nearly invincible. But everyone likes it, or doesn't like it. It's your choice, and the keyword is balancing. This is also a point for the upcoming priv mod page: I won't give modders the ability to submit what they want. The stuff will be checked by volunteer beta testers, there'll be rebalancing recommendations, and everybody who want's to see his stuff at the page must say yes to the open source spirit - that is "remodding allowed" in my opinion.
I DO NOT want to see anything to do with sex or gambling
Again, it is your choice what you take or not, still I don't see the difference to hauling contraband, selling slaves, tracking down troop transports. You said you also play GTA. I might be wrong, but isn't this game about using human heads as baseballs, stealing cars, using arms, even having sex with girls? The difference in PR: You don't see the blood. I don't mind seeing Burrows gambling or looking at gogo-girls. He's not my personal hero. He's a man without moral and without conscience.
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Post by Draken Stark »

Dilloh wrote:
You play games to have fun, not to do something that'd make you feel like you're at a day job...
You talk about your wish to go into game developement. I'm working as a male nurse with handicapped people day and night. I love to play "lil' modder" in my free time, because at work I don't do anything like that. Sure, working with computers or even games makes priv modding really boring. For others like me it is fun and it can even advance your knowledge not only about vegastrike, but even about how the whole thing works.
You have a very good point there <.< I stand corrected. Even I have actually had some fun jobs. But that's me and my taste. >.< But just in general, either action or thought is still what I stand on, because that covers both a physical and a mental workout.

There is some action in modding. The process of creating it I personally find fun to do. Then once a project is finished there's the fun in descovering (sort of) what the end results were. And there's thought in what you think would happen, what you need to do, ect. There's fun in that to me :D Personally I've been in level editing and design for a very long time. (Since the creation of Warcraft II ^^) And am now working on level design for Unreal Tournament 2004. (Still learning currently... lol Trying to recreate my old high school and both of the places where I've worked >.< lol)
Dilloh wrote:
I DO NOT want to see anything to do with sex or gambling
Again, it is your choice what you take or not, still I don't see the difference to hauling contraband, selling slaves, tracking down troop transports. You said you also play GTA. I might be wrong, but isn't this game about using human heads as baseballs, stealing cars, using arms, even having sex with girls? The difference in PR: You don't see the blood. I don't mind seeing Burrows gambling or looking at gogo-girls. He's not my personal hero. He's a man without moral and without conscience.
lmao! that's great lol.

... Sorry to go a bit off topic.
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Post by micheal_andreas_stahl »

Dilloh wrote:[
I DO NOT want to see anything to do with sex or gambling
Again, it is your choice what you take or not, still I don't see the difference to hauling contraband, selling slaves, tracking down troop transports. You said you also play GTA. I might be wrong, but isn't this game about using human heads as baseballs, stealing cars, using arms, even having sex with girls? The difference in PR: You don't see the blood. I don't mind seeing Burrows gambling or looking at gogo-girls. He's not my personal hero. He's a man without moral and without conscience.
I don't play GTA. My brother played it once and we kept away from the parts that invovled sex. I didn't like the game exept being able to play games on it.
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Post by Dilloh »

I also had my fun with designing WarCraft 2 maps! I created whole campaigns ("The traitors of Alterac") and even had a d-day mod (invading the Normandy with sticks & stones). With the i-net by now, you have the ability to share, and sharing is a good thing!

@Andy: I apologize about stating you played GTA. Still, I think it is no sin to do so. Sexual content is everywhere. We just have to sort out pornographic content.
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Post by Melonhead »

I like the idea of having "games within the game," and there are some big picture things about it I've been pondering about it.

Problem #1 with casinos: the house always wins. So, if I'm playing the 2669 version of Blackjack, why would I lose 10k credits and then save the game? But, then that just makes it a "cheat" if I don't save all the times I lose. On the other hand, during a campaign mission, I might well lose money on a particular mission, once I factor in ship repairs, but be willing to save in order to move on in the campaign--especially if the mission was really hard.

So, why does James Bond always gamble? Because the baccarat table is where the guy is that he needs to meet/get info from/steal the girl from/eventually kill. In our universe, the casino could be a place where you pick up an interesting tidbit, or where you become better known in a special circle. Every concierge in the world knows Mr. Bond. Mr. Burrows is a different character, but might become "not anonymous" at certain bases. That could improve his relationship with a certain faction, or give him better rumors, etc. I think you'd want to use actual time playing the tables as a type of "campaign score," regardless of whether you win or lose--heck, casinos might become more friendly if you lose. So, now the reason I still want to make money, even though I have a completely maxed-out fleet and can take out a Kamekh solo, is to get the interesting gossip/mission/meeting that only comes after I'm established.

And what is that gossip? I dunno. But it would provide a way to add campaign scenarios that wouldn't mess up the existing ones, and we would have plenty of time to script them.

That's my other thought--we should work on post-RF campaigns. Most of us know how those end...and then there's not much else to explore, or do...so, I'm thinking it's time I learned how to script!
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Post by Dilloh »

Well, welcome to the modding efforts. I also read your post about cargo values, quite a good point. I think you "legalized" gambling with your idea. I have a proposition to make, involving the Fralthi missions (more info read the PU thread).

You go into the casino, there you meet a drunk high-ranked confed officer. He has lost a lot of money, and he wants you to win his money or better a thing he gave as credit insurance. Or maybe he wants you to gamble 100000 cred (and loose them) while he scans the casino to prove that he has been cheated. Anyway, you help him by gambling. To thank you, he tells you a confed secret offering a new plot.

This plot could be a hint about a kilrathi carrier, which would be spawned in a backwater system, offering further missions.

By this, the casino wouldn't have any money cheating aspect(Either you prove that the casino is a fraud, or you get prohibition to gamble any more because you've won too much).

I really would appreciate if you started scripting, since we're currently founding a PR modding community (for further info see the mod download page thread) and what we desperately need is content...
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Post by Melonhead »

Now those are reasons to gamble!

A logical follow on question would be "what kind of game?" Should it be a classic 21st century Earth game, so most players don't have to learn something new? Does someone have an interesting twist they'd like to offer? No matter what, we aren't going to end up with a casino rivaling a dedicated gambling game--if players want that, they should visit their local software store/site.

Should it be play against the house (e.g. Blackjack) or against other characters (e.g. Texas Hold 'Em)? Nevermind what the latest Bond flick used, do players from Europe/Australia/elsewhere know/like Texas Hold 'Em, or should we stick with baccarat? (I'm originally from Reno, so I'd rather own the casino, and don't have a strong preference on what to offer. "The name's Wynne. Steve Wynne.")

I'm thinking that your plot twist suggests play against the house. Once we have a complete multiplayer game, then play against each other could be very interesting (say, 2010 timeframe for implementation). It's crossed my mind that when I visit the bar on planet X, I find myself hoping I'll find someone from these forums sitting at one of the tables. The universe is lonely when you know everyone else is a computerized character.
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Post by spiritplumber »

I think that the original Priv was supposed to have something like this on pleasure planets...
My Moral Code:
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- Rules were made for people, not the other way around.
- Don't deceive. Real life is complicated enough.
- If all else fails, smash stuff.
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Post by Dilloh »

...though it was never realized because the original priv was quite a huge game for its time.

Melonhead, your idea of playing against a NPC is perfect even for single player mode. Example: You gamble versus the militia guy who only has 5000 creds in his bag - after you won his money, he will offer to give you informations per lost game. So, it is made sure that you won't win more than 5000 creds (which makes the casino side game concept insignificant - but it's a possibility).

Btw, Texas Hold'em is quite known around Germany, though the first time I heard of it was this year. There's a real hype since 2006 with poker nights on many channels and games in the stores.
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Post by micheal_andreas_stahl »

Is regarded as the granddaddy of all games like that.,
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Post by Melonhead »

The only problem (well, not the ONLY problem) with Texas Hold 'Em is that it isn't strictly rules-based. There is an element of bluff, unlike Blackjack and the like, in which the house has no choice in how to play. That would make it much more difficult to code.

Of course, there may already be code available on SourceForge we could use.

A second problem is that the Confed officer could beat the player! Well, that would only be a campaign problem in the near term. Perhaps the
next "hint" would just be triggered when the player finally did win a certain amount--no guarantees when that would occur.
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