New Derivative Model

Need help testing contributed art or code or having trouble getting your newest additions into game compatible format? Confused by changes to data formats? Reading through source and wondering what the developers were thinking when they wrote something? Need "how-to" style guidance for messing with VS internals? This is probably the right forum.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Post by Deus Siddis »

pyramid wrote:True, this would be something worth bugging jackS about. I was wondering if the intended size of the new design would be similar to the previous model. Currently, the ship is about the size of the mining station radar dish. It seems very big as compared to other craft but the scale can be easily adjusted via the scale parameter in units.csv file. So there is no need to change the mesh itself right now.
Yes that is often the case with source files, they are at a scale that is easy to work with. The problem is I forgot to scale it down before exporting. :oops:

Unscaled, it is 50 units long in blender, which I guess becomes 50 meters in VS? If that were so, if I scaling it down 50% that would probably make it the right size.
What might be required however is the change of orientation. If I understand the design correctly the forward direction is where the cannon and missile launchers point. With the current mesh, the craft forward direction is actually opposite. You might consider this for future developments of the mesh.
Heh, that is the first time I have ever heard of a model appearing 180 degrees around after import. A reversed model export should be part of the next revision I send you.
Great :) This might as well wait until the CineMut family of shaders is done and the workflow defined, unless you'd like to continue the learning process.
Sounds good. But maybe I'll make an improved bump, normal and albedo in preparation.
This decision has already been taken. Yours is the craft that fits into the idea of VS universe. What I said was meant to be an incentive for you to continue the beautification of this craft to make it look visually appealing and realistic.
I was not worried about that, I am more concerned with which of the models is better and which will fit better with EW's other Unadorned meshes. Because the model is like the foundation and frame of a house and the texture maps are the rest of it. The former might not represent as much of the visual impact, but if you don't get it right ahead of time it will be very difficult to fix and will always limit the integrity of the entire structure.

But maybe I am overconcerned with this. Do you think you could email me etheral_walker's derivative model and any textures it might have so I can take a look at it? I don't think blender has alot of trouble importing lightwave files.

Could you also send me my derivative's bfxm and compressed textures and the csv file or whatever that would need to be dropped into VS 0.5 to see it in game? (stats and orientation are no problem, I just want to see how it renders inside VS).
I have just committed the shield mesh, but due to the ongoing development of the new shaders it will show with a whitish glow when hit. This should be fixed with the CineMut FireAndGlass shader and an appropriate technique that will be assigned to the shield mesh.
A whitish glow is probably the most realistic anyway.
Also, haven't figured that out yet myself, but if you are eager to investigate, you might have a look on how to integrate engine exhaust to show when the ship is being propelled.
I did, it made me wish the game was already ported to OGRE now.
pyramid
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 988
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:02 am
Location: Somewhere in the vastness of space
Contact:

Post by pyramid »

jackS wrote:If you look at http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/artstyle-guides/derivative-side.jpg there's a scale indicator on the right hand side (a little fellow in a hat that is used as the scale indicator for many of Balint's concept drawings :) )
From rough (ruler+screen) measurements, I was getting something like ~16.5 meters long.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Post by Deus Siddis »

pyramid wrote:
jackS wrote:If you look at http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/artstyle-guides/derivative-side.jpg there's a scale indicator on the right hand side (a little fellow in a hat that is used as the scale indicator for many of Balint's concept drawings :) )
From rough (ruler+screen) measurements, I was getting something like ~16.5 meters long.
Wow, that turns out to be noticeably smaller than a modern day aerospace interceptor, at least in overall length.

In that case maybe I'll try scaling it to 1/3.
Nózmájner
Mercenary
Mercenary
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:36 pm
Location: Hungary

Post by Nózmájner »

Ohh. Hello. I missed this thread.

Can I ask something, as the designer of this craft (well, at least the paper version)?

I'm just curious about, why did you left out my version of her cocpit. Not if that I don't like it this way, it kinde pronounces the three sided simmerty, but that cockpit design was intended to be a characteristic of these ships, kinda to break that symmetry and convert it to a two sided one.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not demandind anything (not if I had any "authority :D"), I'm just courious.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Post by Deus Siddis »

Nózmájner wrote:Ohh. Hello. I missed this thread.
Can I ask something, as the designer of this craft (well, at least the paper version)?
Ask, comment, critique and criticize all that you want, fellow contributor. I welcome all of that in regard to my work and any work that can be related to it in some way, in the threads I create for the things I contribute, otherwise there wouldn't be much point in posting them in the first place. :)
I'm just curious about, why did you left out my version of her cocpit. Not if that I don't like it this way, it kinde pronounces the three sided simmerty,
You just hit the nail right on the head- trilateral symmetry, that is exactly why I changed the cockpit.

As I understand them, the Unadorned are math and logic obsessed computer-worshippers who care absolutely nothing about how things look aesthetically directly, instead they feel a beautiful form comes from function (which honestly, is almost always true).

So I felt by making the ship more trilaterally identical and monotonous, it would look more like a machine with engines and missiles (its basic function as an interceptor) than an actual ship.

On a similar note, wherever there were curves I tried to make them approximate conic sections rather than organic curves, to give it a shape that maybe a computer might think of rather than it looking more natural.
but that cockpit design was intended to be a characteristic of these ships, kinda to break that symmetry and convert it to a two sided one.
I recognized that the cockpit design was repeated in the other two unadorned ships and so my evil plan was to change those also to blend in with their own ships' shapes.

I was going to give the determinant a wider cockpit that blended into its wing in the front, I thought this would be a structurally more durable design as well. I should also note that with jackS approval, I was planning on again making any organic curves into conic sections, move the top and bottom engines to the sides of the big engine inside that large rear section of the ship and decrease its overall length so that it looked more like a flying wing design.

The convolution cockpit would have been the least changed, as again I would make it conform more to the overall shape of the craft, which in this case is taller, more vertical.

However it turns out all of these ships were modeled a long time ago by etheral_walker, who only recently returned here and sent pyramid all of his unadorned craft that he modeled very exactly from your concept art in lightwave. If they were texture or even UV complete I do not think so, but I am not sure, though you should be able to get them from him or off the SVN and import them into blender (a powerful and free/open 3D program) to take a look for yourself if you do not own lightwave.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not demandind anything (not if I had any "authority :D"), I'm just courious.
Sure, I understand. And Art is fun to talk about anyway. :D

Plus it is not like I didn't make mistakes in this model. If I did it again starting today, it would turn out looking noticeably different in a number of places.
Nózmájner
Mercenary
Mercenary
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:36 pm
Location: Hungary

Post by Nózmájner »

Well, that's a good explanation.
To be hones't I didn't really counted in anything mathematical in those ships apart from the symmetrys. I've based the design on Jacks' description, and dimensions.
As for the asymmetry, I don't really think that that's so freaky in the view of maths. I mean there's a lot of asymmetric stuff there, and not only in geometry.
About those organic forms. They are not really mandatory, but if you think about it, som times they are more stable then square and straight shapes. Like in your body, you can't find any straight bone or anything. And if it's good enough for good ol' nature muther, than some mathematic freaks ant their computars my fint them usefull too :D

Anyway, I've also worked on the determinant model, she's in a kinda developed state, but she's need some optimalization, which is in progress. But if you want to work on that model, then contact pyramyd, I sent her to him a few weeks ago.
Anyway, would that offend you, if I work on the derivative's textures a bit? I think they are a bit plain yet, and I need some pratrice on that field too.
pyramid
Expert Mercenary
Expert Mercenary
Posts: 988
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:02 am
Location: Somewhere in the vastness of space
Contact:

Post by pyramid »

@Nózmájner
I've got the Determinant and the Lemma from you . Don't think I have the original Derivatve models. If you don't mind, please resend her to me. Thanks.
Deus Siddis
Elite
Elite
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Post by Deus Siddis »

Meh, the current texture is junk, I had only begun work on its bump map which is where most of the detail comes from. The paint job is wrong also.

But I now understand that the big problem is I did some UV overlaps in its construction, not knowing that Chuck and Klauss were going to double time it on constructing the new super shader, with realitime global illumination support, that is I now understand completely incompatible with overlaps. So all of the maps would need to be redone on top of a new UV layout. :? :(

But I learned quite a few good lessons, especially regarding the creation of the various shader maps, which I will apply to the next VS ship I make, so no big deal. Anyways Nózmájner, the point is if you did your own model of the derivative (I didn't know there was a model already accessible when I started work on the derivative) and it is not more than say 10,000 faces, then like pyramid said, definitely send it in, it might replace the one I made if they both will take about the same amount of work to get fully shader compliant.

Like I said before someplace, beyond the learning experience of the process that I needed, my main goal here was just to get the ancient models for unadorned craft replaced so that we wouldn't have to look at them anymore. :)
Post Reply