Mission Script - Fixers

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pheonixstorm
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Mission Script - Fixers

Post by pheonixstorm »

We all know how the fixers are. They have a limited amount of missions to offer and usually stay where we found them. Why not make this a little more dynamic or at the very least make the fixer a little more dynamic.

What about giving each fixer an honor rating? This gives us a number or percentage of how likely it is that any given fixer will betray the player or just not be there after the mission is completed.
Organization: Is the fixer part of a certain guild? Plantetary official, pirate clan, military official? This could also affect the starting honor rating.
Faction: What faction does the fixer belong to? Could the faction relationship play a part in the fixers honor rating?
DoRandom: Does the fixer provide random generated missions like the mission comp does (only higher stats)?
Linear/Non-Linear:Another Y/N like above. This time the above answer has to be no. We can provide the fixer with a non-linear mini campaign were choices make or break deals. If you fail a mission you might start down a different pathway.
Background: Does VS have something like the player comp from Privateer? You could use this as a tool to lookup information on a given fixer to check his/her reliability and how they really are.
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chuck_starchaser
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by chuck_starchaser »

I think there's gazillions of features we could add to fixers; but the main problem right now is
that we don't get any story-writing contributors due to the python interface. THAT is the problem.
Adding more features would probably complexify the interface even more. So I think your
original plan of writing software that makes writing quests and missions easier is the best idea;
it's just that you soon branched off into changing the underlying representation, then forgot
your original idea.
Once we have a way for writers to *easily* write adventures, then we could think about adding
new features, IMO.
Does VS have something like the player comp from Privateer?
What "comp"?
Are you talking about Privateer 2?
That would be great to have; but no, currently we don't.
If you're talking about the PDA, no; but that would also be great to have.
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by klauss »

There's a way for writers to write adventures.

On paper.

They can easily write a text document with all the mission details (within the engine's limitations to their best knowledge of course).

Then someone able to implement it with the python interface can put them in the game, even if the interface is ugly. Of course, if the interface is easy to use, so much the better (we'll have more capable "integrators" ;) )
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pheonixstorm
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by pheonixstorm »

Actually Chuck i'm going by your and klausses advice of finding what I want and what works then you change the code to fit it. Engine code anyway.

Really though, the mission editor will pretty much handle all the dialog while it may or may not handle all the extra scripting. That could be a seperate project. Or at least a mission wizard to handle the basic fixer missions while the editor creates any campaign based stories.

My idea on fixers comes in two flavors
1. Non-Campaign
2. Campaign

Either way it would be nice to have part, all, or more of the above for both. I'm putting together ideas for whatever pops into my head first. The actual coding of the python scripts or the editor itself will happen later once I get new ideas confirmed and tacked onto the code plan. The auto-follow was one that looks like it will go in, hope the fixers will as well but that could be handled all in python I think.
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chuck_starchaser
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by chuck_starchaser »

klauss wrote:There's a way for writers to write adventures.

On paper.

They can easily write a text document with all the mission details (within the engine's limitations to their best knowledge of course).

Then someone able to implement it with the python interface can put them in the game, even if the interface is ugly. Of course, if the interface is easy to use, so much the better (we'll have more capable "integrators" ;) )
I tried that, but remember what happened. The writers simply don't believe they can write whatever they want. They simply can't believe it. They want.. er.. NEED to know what the constraints are, and if you don't give them constraints, they go away.
The opposite of graphics artists :mrgreen:
pheonixstorm wrote:Actually Chuck i'm going by your and klausses advice of finding what I want and what works then you change the code to fit it. Engine code anyway.
Excellent!
Really though, the mission editor will pretty much handle all the dialog while it may or may not handle all the extra scripting. That could be a seperate project. Or at least a mission wizard to handle the basic fixer missions while the editor creates any campaign based stories.

My idea on fixers comes in two flavors
1. Non-Campaign
2. Campaign
Rather than split missions between campaign and non-campaign, it would be a lot more elegant and easier to separate the levels.
You could have a single mission level specification language.
Then a multi-mission or "quest"-level specification language.
Finally a campaign or game-story level specification language.
Probably all similar, but the idea would be, when you're writing a small quest you don't have to even know or have decided if
it will be part of the main campaign or if it will be a side-quest. Both are written the same way. It is the campaign level editor
that later integrates (or doesn't) quests into a campaign; --or how strongly or loosely it does. Remember Privateer Righteous Fire? There were side-quests, but at one point you need references to get an interview with Monte, and having done those side-quests comes handy.
Either way it would be nice to have part, all, or more of the above for both. I'm putting together ideas for whatever pops into my head first. The actual coding of the python scripts or the editor itself will happen later once I get new ideas confirmed and tacked onto the code plan. The auto-follow was one that looks like it will go in, hope the fixers will as well but that could be handled all in python I think.
For some other ideas, you might want to read through this thread,
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/forum ... 11&t=15127
where Snow_Cat explains a technique he's used for other games, where the game-flow logic becomes like a set of intertwined state-machines that allows huge numbers of possible paths through the state space. That's a great way to make game flow feel very non-linear without having to write long, parallel branches.
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by Neskiairti »

storyline wise; speaking as a writer, it isn't constraints, its premise. I personally don't know what has been written, and I wouldn't want to trample on other people's hard work :p
if i read over it, i might find good places to retcon things, and I wouldn't be afraid to do that.

(and i don't have time/energy go write VS lore XD)
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by klauss »

Neskiairti wrote:storyline wise; speaking as a writer, it isn't constraints, its premise. I personally don't know what has been written, and I wouldn't want to trample on other people's hard work :p
I'm a programmer, not an artist (though I can manage some level of art), nor a writer (though I can write in decent style).

I, thus, program an engine. VS is not my engine, in that I didn't start it, nor there is that much code written by me in it. I've contributed, and I'm still contributing, and I'm interested in making it better.

But an engine is not a game. If the artists in this forum (which, in fact, is the extent of the VS community) follow that mindset, there will never be a game. Artists (in this case writers) have to organize themselves, sift through the preexisting material, and decide how to build on it, what to keep, what to throw, but in short, develop a game.

Here are the guidelines:
  • Use an existing design document as inspiration for documenting the game style.
  • Use the current game's state for a clear example of what is possible
  • Use common sense and other games in the genre for a guideline for what could be possible.
  • If in doubt, ask an engine developer how hard it would be to get feature X of your story implemented in the engine.
  • If something isn't directly possible to implement in the engine, something similar for storytelling purposes most likely is - coordinate with engine developers on the specifics, and write your story "as if anything was possible".
  • Write a story script in a derivative of the script format for screenplay. A good derivative for games is screenplay script for cutscenes/dialogues with comments and notes on the dynamic features (ie: if the player does X go to cutscene Y, etc...) - it's a highly customizable format, since screenplay is linear and games are not, but using the screenplay format for the parts that are linear (cutscenes/dialogues) will help organize your thoughts.
  • The linear script you write in the previous point will NOT be the game, but a guideline in how the storyline of the game will progress. Be ready to cut it into pieces, edit and even rewrite it often.
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Neskiairti
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by Neskiairti »

I wasn't saying one way was right or wrong, simply outlining the difference in an artist mentality.

most artists (excluding the fucking fanartists :P) prefer being unique, not adding to a project but doing their own project. Obviously a program like VS is far too large to do yourself, thus it takes some one supplying them with a field where they can feel free to do as they please without stepping on previous toes or other people working.

what might work I think, is supplying a very rogue timeline, give basic events like "at date X there is a war between Y and Z" and have some one write the mission scripts and storyline driving that war.. then have some one else read over that war, and write in to the next date. or read over that war, and decide what another faction is doing, outside of Y and Z.

of course this requires something to build on, a basic understanding of the nature of those two races, Y and Z.. as well as a stylized guide for their ships and everything like that.

which IS something that is very locked down in VS.. style is terribly important... so are you asking these people to rewrite the style? or do you need them to be confined to the previous styleguide written?
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by klauss »

There isn't a fully comprehensive style guideline anywhere.

There's no style guideline for cockpits (of perhaps various factions).

There's no GUI style guideline.

There's no menu style guideline.

There's no music style guideline even. There's music, without a guideline. (I guess the music already there has become a de-facto guideline).

A style guideline can't merely describe the art faction X produces (ie: faction X likes carving everything in wood, so most of their furniture either is wood or looks like it). That's not useful for the game - you have to describe how a faction X ship's controls look, decide whether you want the human player using the alien interface or some humanized version of it (and perhaps explain the fact with some mumbo jumbo).

Similarly, describing the kind of music faction Y listens to helps you nothing, you have to define the style of music the player will listen when on faction Y's territory... which is very much different.

And all that must adhere to a general game style guideline that gives the game unity and consistency.

There's none of that.

And, furthermore, a design document doesn't limit itself to artistic styles. It also describes how the game feels, how is it played, how come it is fun. Game devs have to explain why the game will be fun because the design document is what they have when they're looking for funding you know... and that also helps guide the game's development: why waste 2 years of development time on some feature that doesn't help "the fun element"? (ie: read about Duke Nukem Forever)
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Neskiairti
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by Neskiairti »

and there you have it!

personal suggestion, find some one who wants to define the VS style. It doesn't need to be comprehensive, just a kernel to build off of so the whole game feels contiguous.

Doesn't need to be a writer either, anyone with a feeling for the game should be able to do it.
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by charlieg »

Somebody needs to dig up jackS aka minister of information.
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klauss
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Re: Mission Script - Fixers

Post by klauss »

charlieg wrote:Somebody needs to dig up jackS aka minister of information.
Take his place, rather.
He's been too busy even since before I joined.

Anyway, the guideline can be a collaborative effort, there's no need to define ministers. Whoever feels like investing time on it can document things, be it in a document or the wiki, and it can be iterated upon and discussed as usual in VS.
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