Missing option in vegastrike.config

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Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby ezee » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:36 pm

:idea: I've found today a line of c++ code that allow me to load my InGameMenu BEFORE the base main_menu.

Located in void bootstrap_first_loop() , main.cpp :
static bool isgamemenu = XMLSupport::parse_bool( vs_config->getVariable( "graphics", "main_menu", "false" ) );


The normal mode use isgamemenu=false ;
That mean that if the var "main_menu" don't exist in the vsconfig file , the default option applied is " false " .
And without surprise , this option is not yet defined in vegastrike.config

TO OFFICIAL DEVS:
PLEASE CONSIDER THAT THIS SHOULD BE FIXED !
WE HAVE C++ CODE THAT IS HARD CODED BECAUSE OF THAT .
( as only c++ coders know about that var, it's our responsability to implement it .

THE FIX IS TO ADD THIS LINE :
<var name="main_menu" value="false"/>

IN THE "graphics" section of vegastrike.config .
Example:
<section name="graphics">
<var name="main_menu" value="false"/>
...
...

This way , from the user point of view , nothing change , the game will load as always .
BUT THIS VAR IS AN IMPORTANT SWITCH BETWEEN TWO GAME DESIGN .
ONCE SHE EXISTS , SHE CAN BE USED . :!:
So please think about it ... give a chance to the c++ gamemenu . :)

There is a minor issue with this flag set to true :
In the gamemenu , press "singlePlayer" loads the main_menu.py
I'm working on it .

edit : i think i got it , but it's a long story : not sure you want to hear it .
It's based on how the actual system works and the <var name="default_mission" value="main_menu.mission" .
It seem that using the c++ game menu as general menu MUST modify how the game loop starts .IN OTHER WORDS , GAMEMENU C++ WAS NEVER FULLY IMPLEMENTED !?/>


rededit : :idea: About the issue of the main_menu that is loaded , i fixed it with the
vegastrike.config file :

section name="general">
<var name="times_to_show_help_screen" value="-1"/>
<var name="dockingtime" value="20"/>
<var name="remember_savegame" value="false"/>
<var name="load_last_savegame" value="false"/>
<var name="write_savegame_on_exit" value="false"/>
<var name="debug_config" value="false"/>
<var name="debug_fs" value="0"/> <!-- set to 3 for most comprehensive debugging-->
<var name="default_mission" value="test/tutorial.mission"/><!-- old: value="main_menu.mission" -->


So a major rewrite will not be neccessary to use the c++ gameMenu instead of main-menu.py . The tutorial is a good starting point , we could make an other mission relative at our main campaign , just before the meeting with Janek etc ... .
Code: Select all
 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby klauss » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:37 am

I would rather deprecate and remove the C++ game menu.

User Interface should be all in python. Far more flexible, and better design.
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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby ezee » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:41 pm

Well , that is your point of view .
But how many users are python coders ?
And why the actual interface is so ... since so many years ?
Why users can go back to menu when in game ?
FOr so many years ?
People asked for it but ...
Why , why why ....


The best way is to provide XML menu i think .
( like css for html )
But that is my point of view , and i will do it on my way .
In a separate mod , as it appear that the DEv TEAM is actually you only ,
and that you are not for creative/evolutive solutions .

I would rather deprecate and remove the C++ game menu.


Clearly , you are not giving a chance for my seeds to grow .
So i dedicate to you this song :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XiYUYcpsT4&feature=kp

What is to be must be .
8)

Edit : In the previous bug thread that you fixed ( the bad link in the official doc ) , i've found that speech ( 2005 ) from you :
I don't know python, but I can understand python when I read it.
So I could translate python into C++

(What I'm saying: bring it on)


So ... are you a good python coder today ?
:lol:
And if no , why do you want to work with python things ?
People/coders are asking for that ?
Let me know , for that everybody knows.

All the things that i will create , i could export them in python func .
But where is the interest if users don' t use python ?
You say you want to kill c++ code ?
Are you a c++ coder , seriously ?
Let me tell you this :
you fool yourself and you fool people that listen to you .
There is a bogus that is hard to solve , it is a human .

There should be a DEV TEAM , with C++ and python coders .
And they should work together .
And give simple tools for standard users .
Today is only illogical desorder , and you are sat alone in that throne .

I wish to you pleasure with your job .
:lol:

Mine is better , i create .
:D
Code: Select all
 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby klauss » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:15 pm

ezee wrote:Well , that is your point of view .
But how many users are python coders ?

I don't have a number, but more than good C++ coders most likely.

ezee wrote:And why the actual interface is so ... since so many years ?
Why users can go back to menu when in game ?
FOr so many years ?
People asked for it but ...
Why , why why ....

Honestly, you don't need to be so dramatic.

Anyway, not sure what you're asking (cannot parse ellipsis into something tangible), but the answer to all those why's always the same: because nobody made it that way.

ezee wrote:The best way is to provide XML menu i think .
( like css for html )

Agree. That's the plan and that's what XGUI.py was supposed to be for - translating XML into python through the base interface. Never fully materialized, but if you're interested, you're welcome to push it forward.

ezee wrote:In a separate mod , as it appear that the DEv TEAM is actually you only ,
and that you are not for creative/evolutive solutions .

Experience makes me see further ahead. Don't dismiss my input because it's informed. I won't dismiss your fresh POVs either in return.

ezee wrote:
I would rather deprecate and remove the C++ game menu.


Clearly , you are not giving a chance for my seeds to grow .

I'm not stepping on them either. If you want C++ badly, go ahead. If you want to send the patch back my way, go ahead, I'll review.

But, honestly, python's better for that task. First, you don't need to recompile to make changes to the UI. That means it's open for modders. Second, python's more agile. Third, it will push the VS and Base interface in the right direction: more python power = richer modding. Finally, the end objective is to make it python-parsed XML, which means you no longer need coders at all.

If you still think C++ is better, it's your time, just send the patch.

ezee wrote:Edit : In the previous bug thread that you fixed ( the bad link in the official doc ) , i've found that speech ( 2005 ) from you :
I don't know python, but I can understand python when I read it.
So I could translate python into C++

(What I'm saying: bring it on)


So ... are you a good python coder today ?

That was 9 years ago. That's a long time. Yes, I'm better at python.

ezee wrote:And if no , why do you want to work with python things ?

But my preference for python has nothing to do. See my points above. Python is technically superior for this task.

ezee wrote:All the things that i will create , i could export them in python func .

Works too.

ezee wrote:But where is the interest if users don' t use python ?

C++ needs compiling.

ezee wrote:You say you want to kill c++ code ?
Are you a c++ coder , seriously ?


I'm a coder. Language-agnostic you could say. I know more languages than I can enumerate OTOMH. The benefit is that I know the pros and cons of those. Anything that is purely game logic and not performance critical should be python, because that will mean it's moddable. C++ isn't moddable, although there was talk about supporting C++ plugins (as in dynamically loaded libraries). It's a huge amount of work though.

ezee wrote:Let me tell you this :
you fool yourself and you fool people that listen to you .
There is a bogus that is hard to solve , it is a human .

In which case specifically?

ezee wrote:There should be a DEV TEAM , with C++ and python coders .

I do not have control of others. I only control where I invest my time. If you're unhappy with me investing my time in VS, or the amount of time I invest in it, then you should seriously introspect - my involvement should not upset you.

Let me quote Duncan Idaho: "my hands are mine to do as I please".

So are yours. Send the patches and we'll discuss. That's how you take the project in a direction you like. If you ask for my opinion I will give it - and my opinion is that user interface should be done in python. If you want to argue against that opinion, argue with technical reasons.

ezee wrote:And they should work together .
And give simple tools for standard users .

The operating word there is "work". Simple tools mean a lot of work for coders. I've always said we need simple tools, but from saying to making happen there's a lot of work (and time) involved.

ezee wrote:Today is only illogical desorder , and you are sat alone in that throne .

What throne? This is an OS project. There's no throne. The code is a mess, I know. I don't plan to defend it. So what makes you think there's a throne, and let alone that I'm sitting in it?

ezee wrote:I wish to you pleasure with your job .
:lol:

Thanks, it is quite interesting indeed. Talking about my day job of course.

ezee wrote:Mine is better , i create .
:D


You don't know what mine is. Just thought I'd point that out.
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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby loki1950 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:35 pm

There is no project leader as such we usually just discuss things till a consensuses emerges that can take a while :wink: as we all have strong options that and those of us old timers are just stubborn and won't quit the project.

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby klauss » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:45 pm

klauss wrote:
ezee wrote:But where is the interest if users don' t use python ?

C++ needs compiling.

Forgot: also, removing unused code means less code to maintain (or learn).

~> python
Python 2.7.6 (default, Nov 21 2013, 15:55:38) [GCC] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import this
The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters

Beautiful is better than ugly.
Explicit is better than implicit.
Simple is better than complex.
Complex is better than complicated.
Flat is better than nested.
Sparse is better than dense.
Readability counts.
Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
Although practicality beats purity.
Errors should never pass silently.
Unless explicitly silenced.
In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.
There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
Now is better than never.
Although never is often better than *right* now.
If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.
If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!
>>>
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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby ezee » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:56 pm

Hi Loki .
:)

No problem , i just need some clarification sometimes ( i don't ask for sacrifice ) .
I follow the light , and i am a part of it .
Nothing is obscure with knowledge of the truth .

It's better to rest than work for nothing .
My salutation here for the ancients !
:wink:

The root is good , and the fruits come from the root .
Some branchs give fruits , some no .
The root of the project is c++ .
Python is like the old evil in the tree ...
:lol:

In Greek mythology, Python (Greek: Πύθων, gen.: Πύθωνος) was the earth-dragon of Delphi, always represented in Greek sculpture and vase-paintings as a serpent. He presided at the Delphic oracle, which existed in the cult center for his mother, Gaia, "Earth," Pytho being the place name that was substituted for the earlier Krisa.[1] Hellenes considered the site to be the center of the earth, represented by a stone, the omphalos or navel, which Python guarded.
Src : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(mythology)

Yeah , c++ can produce good fruits , but are they for a snake ?
Ah ah ah , "....things are not the way they use to be ... i don't tell no lie . "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDXJ3vwAw-E&feature=kp

I think the different that oppose Klauss and I are based in the fact that he is a RLAAN .
Perhaps i'm an Aera , or ...
:lol:

It's written in the book , " Fraternal War " .
Better than a cold sea of shame .

Hate and Love are hot , hot , hot .
:D
Code: Select all
 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby ezee » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:07 pm

@Klauss :
Agree. That's the plan and that's what XGUI.py was supposed to be for - translating XML into python through the base interface. Never fully materialized, but if you're interested, you're welcome to push it forward.


Thank you , that info will help me in my work , and it's the continuation of Ace123 and Hellcatv.

My message to them now :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsoiupLME-w

I don't dismiss , i'm engaged for joy .
:D

edit :
Forgot: also, removing unused code means less code to maintain (or learn).


I missed that from you .
Of course , i was looking also for dead lines of code to remove .
But what we call dead is waiting as a seed in the ground . ( hard as stone , but green life is waiting inside )
And i have water .
:lol:

end of the ellipsis :

Many pictures show the serpent Python living in amity with Apollo and guarding the Omphalos, the sacred navel-stone and mid-point of the earth, which stood in Apollo's temple" (Kerenyi 1951:136).
This myth has been described as an allegory for the dispersal of the fogs and clouds of vapor which arise from ponds and marshes (Python) by the rays of the sun (the arrows of Apollo).[9]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(mythology)wikipedia
Code: Select all
 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby PaulB » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:38 pm

Sorry but I have to stick my 2 cents wroth in again.
The Python parts of the code are a help for some semi-programmer/users to be able to make changes to the game for themselves.
I've made some mods in Privateer GG and in Vegastrike to better suit my vision limitations in the game with some colors used. I know little about python - but I have enough programming background that I can figure out a lot of the things I see in the python modules and make those changes I needed.

If it was all in C++ I couldn't do ANY of that because (1) I would not have the source code and (2) C++ is much more complex that Python. Even I know that much. And (3) the C++ would have to be recompiled with a C Compiler - whereas - any changes to the Python code automatically get recompiled the next time the game is run.

So please - this is an Open Systems game is it not? Then keep and make it easy for those of us who want to be able to Mod our versions to continue to do so. The original developers did the same for you!!!!

And I expect there are a lot of users who are more of a programmer than I am who have contributed to the game as it is now and probably a lot was due to Python.

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby TBeholder » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:42 am

ezee wrote::idea: I've found today a line of c++ code that allow me to load my InGameMenu BEFORE the base main_menu.
Located in void bootstrap_first_loop() , main.cpp :
static bool isgamemenu = XMLSupport::parse_bool( vs_config->getVariable( "graphics", "main_menu", "false" ) );
For one, you use some antique clone.
In the trunk, void bootstrap_first_loop() is here and the option is here.
Um, yeah, it shows the basic menu. "Single player" button runs the "main_menu" mission as specified in config. Yay. I don't see how it can be necessary for actual use, but it's at least somewhat useful for debugging - we can easily make sure the engine starts and handles at least resolution, basic mouse handling and text rendering correctly before it will precache any resources and clutter output.

Other than that - yeah, client-side Python it is. The less hardcoded assumptions, the more flexible and easy to tweak everything gets. If any menu can be modified, translated and debugged separately from the engine, this can make things much easier for modding. And there are near-unlimited possibilities with PyGTK, etc.
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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby ezee » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:53 pm

Hi .

For one, you use some antique clone.

Version 0.5.1 rc1 is antique for you ?
If any menu can be modified, translated and debugged separately from the engine, this can make things much easier for modding. And there are near-unlimited possibilities with PyGTK, etc.


Sure .
But for a question of logic , i wonder :

_Who will spend time at home to build a new menu for himself alone ?
And why the actual interface is so basic ? Why the purple computer image is still there ?
Is it a question of aesthetics ? I hope no . :roll:
So since how many years you use the same old interface ?
Perhaps because there are artists , but no python coders to work with ?
There are things that i really can't understand here .

I think the OFFICIAL DEV TEAM should concentrate his efforts in the actual content of their game , not what kind of useful toy it will be for future modders .
Or if it's the goal , make VS a real game engine , but it is far away from that now .

I don't know ...
Perhaps i don't know you all enough to understand what you are doing here , and what
you expect in the near future for VegaStrike .

Personally , i've found that genius guys have worked on it , but that it is unfinished .
I think Vegastrike needs a beautiful interface , attractive , with new fonts also .
That will be soon my c++ gift .
:lol:

Okay , i'm no more upset , but i know that what upset me is always what i don't understand . And sometimes , there is only void and no answers .
So thank you guys for your answers and patience with me .
:wink:
Code: Select all
 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby PaulB » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:53 pm

I don't want to offend anyone but I do think Vegastrike needs some beautifying.
I think the menus and Dock stations and those type graphics leave some to be desired.
I think there that Privateer GG has and edge up on Vegastrike. And that Bartender - my my - he looks like a character from and old Sunday Comic strip.
Hope I;m just offering constructive criticism - as a game player.

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby loki1950 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:15 pm

PaulB wrote:And that Bartender - my my - he looks like a character from and old Sunday Comic strip.


Working on that :wink: but I do want to keep an amine style as full realism may strain our resources both in time to do and in personnel to do it,I plan to use MakeHuman for our humanoid races with one of the low-ploy proxy meshes it provides currently working on Jarek the hauler @Atlantis.

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby ezee » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:42 pm

I think also that we shouldn't go to the extremes , as it is the case nowadays , with extremely poors graphism in a side and astonish 2d/3d in an other .

I hope to find a style that is moderate in system resources but beautiful enough to let us dream.
" Sweet dreams are melodies ... everybody , looking for something ... "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeMFqkcPYcg
:lol:
Code: Select all
 if (!track.HasWeapons())
            {
                // So what are you going to threaten me with? Exhaustion gas?
                return ThreatLevel::None;
            }

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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby klauss » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:22 pm

ezee wrote:_Who will spend time at home to build a new menu for himself alone ?
And why the actual interface is so basic ? Why the purple computer image is still there ?
Is it a question of aesthetics ? I hope no . :roll:

Which purple computer?

ezee wrote:So since how many years you use the same old interface ?
Perhaps because there are artists , but no python coders to work with ?
There are things that i really can't understand here .

Most of the ugly interfaces I can think of, are there because they're hardcoded in C++, that's where the lack of coders is. Also art. We lack it too. But seriously, the biggest offenders in ugliness I can think of are all hardcoded in C++.

ezee wrote:I think the OFFICIAL DEV TEAM should concentrate his efforts in the actual content of their game , not what kind of useful toy it will be for future modders .

The official dev team would love that, but without modder tools, we don't have enough resources to actually build that content with the really limited number of committed content producers that come along.

Most of the contributions we receive are drive-by contributions, and without tools, nothing of consequence can be produced in drive-by fashion.

That's why I believe tools are very important, even while I share that ultimate goal of actual content - tools are the means to get there.
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Re: Missing option in vegastrike.config

Postby TBeholder » Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:07 am

ezee wrote:I think the OFFICIAL DEV TEAM should concentrate his efforts in the actual content of their game , not what kind of useful toy it will be for future modders .
Or if it's the goal , make VS a real game engine , but it is far away from that now .
It's appliable only when there already is something to concentrate in the first place. The word we need is "gather".
And to have developers who want different things gathered together, it obviously should be flexible enough to cover all those things, at least eventually. Meaning that we need to remember about WC mods (a lot of current content consists of pretty much placeholders borrowed from there, and is yet another incentive to upgrade component/damage system), VegaTrek (which contributed some interesting, if underused, functionality), EliteStrike (it needs heat management and free-roaming jumpdrive, but those are good not just for Elite)... but it's to the better, really.
Conversely, hardcoding things that don't need to be makes the result narrow-niche, sending everyone who needs slightly different thing to look for something else, and slows down upgrades. Also, it's a temptation to omit thinking in generic terms completely, which tend to grandfather clunky code and data, and trying to make it more flexible later leads exactly to the sort of mess out of which VS crawls only now.

PaulB wrote:I don't want to offend anyone but I do think Vegastrike needs some beautifying.
I think the menus and Dock stations and those type graphics leave some to be desired.
Well, yeah, most of this stuff are low-res placeholders.
PaulB wrote:I think there that Privateer GG has and edge up on Vegastrike. And that Bartender - my my - he looks like a character from and old Sunday Comic strip.
Uh, you did never see Freedroid RPG? Most of those things are little dudes from Paradroid. :lol:
Yes, that's the problem with stinkin' postmodernism. ;)
But in this case, the real problem is that the aesthetics are the same across factions, not that they don't all follow some vague fashions you imply. Sets may be somewhat intersecting, but there should be some obvious differences between Shaper, Unadorned, a seedy bar and cantina on Confed military station.
"Two Eyes Good, Eleven Eyes Better." -Michele Carter
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TBeholder
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