Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

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Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby Deus Siddis » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:06 am

Someone changed the armor and shield paradigm so that there are now 8 surfaces, one for each "corner" of the ship.

Unfortunately whoever implemented this didn't bother to remove the dual shield upgrades which make no sense in this new system since there are no front or back shield surfaces anymore.

I propose either moving over to a 6 sided system (front, back, top, bottom, left, right) or removing the now broken dual shield upgrades. If the latter let me know soon since I am already doing a big rebalance of units and I could look into the effects of removing them outright.
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby klauss » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:40 pm

What?

It should work. As long as you have a dual-shield-taking unit.
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby Deus Siddis » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:46 pm

klauss wrote:It should work. As long as you have a dual-shield-taking unit.


It can't work, look at the names of the surfaces in units.csv--

Code: Select all
Shield_Front_Top_Right
Shield_Back_Top_Left
Shield_Front_Bottom_Right
Shield_Front_Bottom_Left
Shield_Back_Top_Right
Shield_Front_Top_Left
Shield_Back_Bottom_Right
Shield_Back_Bottom_Left


Using those options, how do you define a shield that will only protect the front and back of a ship but not the top, bottom, left or right sides?
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby loki1950 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:32 pm

Are you sure it does not relate to the shield graphic that pyramid added as those entries correspond exactly so you will need to find a reference in the code someplace to be sure.

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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby klauss » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:47 pm

Deus Siddis wrote:It can't work, look at the names of the surfaces in units.csv--

Code: Select all
Shield_Front_Top_Right
Shield_Back_Top_Left
Shield_Front_Bottom_Right
Shield_Front_Bottom_Left
Shield_Back_Top_Right
Shield_Front_Top_Left
Shield_Back_Bottom_Right
Shield_Back_Bottom_Left


Using those options, how do you define a shield that will only protect the front and back of a ship but not the top, bottom, left or right sides?


According to the code, shield use Shield_Front_Top_Right and Shield_Back_Top_Right.
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby Deus Siddis » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:05 pm

klauss wrote:According to the code, shield use Shield_Front_Top_Right and Shield_Back_Top_Right.


Then that will only protect the top right corner of the front side and the top right corner of the back side. It is only covering 25% of the area it is supposed to and it isn't even centered, it's lopsided to the right and up.

So either the names of those columns are wrong and must be renamed and the extras removed (altogether there are eight columns for shield surfaces and eight for armor) or dual shields are a mangled feature that should be deprecated.
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby klauss » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:13 am

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote:According to the code, shield use Shield_Front_Top_Right and Shield_Back_Top_Right.


Then that will only protect the top right corner of the front side and the top right corner of the back side. It is only covering 25% of the area it is supposed to and it isn't even centered, it's lopsided to the right and up.

So either the names of those columns are wrong and must be renamed and the extras removed (altogether there are eight columns for shield surfaces and eight for armor) or dual shields are a mangled feature that should be deprecated.


Check units_shieldarmor.h (or something like that). The structure is a union, with a variable for number of faces. So when the shield is configured for 2 face, it will use those variables to mean front and back. The CSV cannot be made to reflect this, sadly.
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby Deus Siddis » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:15 am

klauss wrote:So when the shield is configured for 2 face, it will use those variables to mean front and back. The CSV cannot be made to reflect this, sadly.


All of this complexity and confusion is because the engine has switched to using 8 shield/armor surfaces instead of 6.

Is there some clear game play advantage to have 8 surfaces in odd "corner" orientations instead of the classic front, back, up, down, left and right surfaces?
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby klauss » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:43 am

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote:So when the shield is configured for 2 face, it will use those variables to mean front and back. The CSV cannot be made to reflect this, sadly.


All of this complexity and confusion is because the engine has switched to using 8 shield/armor surfaces instead of 6.

Is there some clear game play advantage to have 8 surfaces in odd "corner" orientations instead of the classic front, back, up, down, left and right surfaces?


Some mod must have needed it. UTCS doesn't use it AFAIK.
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby Deus Siddis » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:29 pm

klauss wrote:Some mod must have needed it. UTCS doesn't use it AFAIK.


Only three mods have existed for the last ten years or so, the privateer remakes GG and PU and then Vega Trek. And I have never heard of 8 sided shields in either of those two universes. They both use a 6 sided system, no?
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby klauss » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:42 pm

Deus Siddis wrote:
klauss wrote:Some mod must have needed it. UTCS doesn't use it AFAIK.


Only three mods have existed for the last ten years or so, the privateer remakes GG and PU and then Vega Trek. And I have never heard of 8 sided shields in either of those two universes. They both use a 6 sided system, no?


Well... there must have been others, there's a chunk of code (being removed) to support car sims. I imagine that must have been a pet mod of someone. Anyway, sure, no mod I know uses it either. Doesn't mean it's a bad feature.
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby Deus Siddis » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:01 pm

klauss wrote:Well... there must have been others, there's a chunk of code (being removed) to support car sims.


:?:

I imagine that must have been a pet mod of someone. Anyway, sure, no mod I know uses it either. Doesn't mean it's a bad feature.


That it makes units.csv so convoluted and confusing is bad though.

And if it is mutually exclusive with 6 sided defenses, that is bad as well. It could be interesting to have thing like a giant siege ship that has thick armor covering the front and less yet still significant armor on the top, bottom and sides but then very little protecting the back, making it countered by smaller more maneuverable units. Or a dropship that has weak front or top defenses because it is only designed to take damage while landing troops planetside. The 6 sided way offers more of these useful kinds of options than 8 because more of the options have symmetry.
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Re: Dual Shields are a Broken Feature

Postby klauss » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:15 pm

I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

If there isn't a 6-sided option, there should be. Yes. But I don't think it conflicts (barring some naming discomfort)
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