[balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

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[balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

Postby TBeholder » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:28 pm

There seems to be something wrong with CapIFF. It's light-capship-missile, takes volume 40, but it's not clear at all why it is worth wasting almost half of torpedo's or 5 of ImRec's ammo volume. :?

Unit mass 0.62 tons / ammo volume 40 m^3(?); FF 0.39/12; ImRec 0.32/8 (what's with density issues?).
Damage 320 / range 45000; FF 580/70000; ImRec 520/74000.
Speed: governor and weaponlist don't match for any of them, which BTW decreases de-facto lifetime, but while on CapIFF the governor is set higher, its thrust is a lot weaker than on either medium missile (while it's more massive), maneuerability lower.
CapIFF has 10 VSD hull instead of 5, but that's all. And it's not a viable trade-off since its greater size and lower maneuverability makes it much easier to hit with bolts, that tend to cause more damage.
So, what the point is supposed to be?
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Re: [balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

Postby eracc » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:42 am

Okay, moving CapIFF discussion from here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17639 to this thread.

I am willing to fix CapIFF and make them usable in the game via the various *.csv files. But I really need a clue as to what you folks want that missile to be. Per my comment in the other thread above:
How do you suggest I fix the CapIFF missiles? IMO looking at what TB said the CapIFF missiles are less useful than regular light or medium missiles. If they are supposed to be used for a light capital ship, I think they should be more powerful and more durable than light / medium missiles, but less powerful than Torpedo. How do I fix that? (Give details please. :D )
Any insight you folks can provide as to how these CapIFF missiles should be configured would be excellent.
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Re: [balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

Postby pheonixstorm » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:44 pm

I guess to start you should see what is supposed to carry the capiff. Is it carried mostly by escorts? Gunships? Bombers?? What ships carry the torpedo? We know the roles of most of the weapons at least (I think) so we can look into what ships are supposed to carry these weapons and what the intended target should be for them. I'll start digging a bit and see if I can come up with some comparison for them or at least an intended role that can be more easily balanced.
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Re: [balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

Postby TBeholder » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:02 pm

pheonixstorm wrote:I guess to start you should see what is supposed to carry the capiff. Is it carried mostly by escorts? Gunships? Bombers?? What ships carry the torpedo?

Currently the only light-capship-missile present are CapIFF and CapCluster. The only things carrying CapIFF are turretlauncher and Vigilance.
Of these, turretlauncher is never used and CapCluster isn't even implemented as an unit. So, only Vigilance.

"heavy-missile": Torpedo (Hammer, Admonisher/Pacifier - and just about every capship or subcap), EMPtorpedo (Dostoevsky, Franklin, Admonisher variants), AdvTorpedo (Aera) and Cluster (not used by NPS, but is on sale).
"heavy-missile" mounts not used as such: Convolution (removed on NPC variants and milspec, but present on blank/stock), Quicksilver.

pheonixstorm wrote:We know the roles of most of the weapons at least (I think) so we can look into what ships are supposed to carry these weapons and what the intended target should be for them. I'll start digging a bit and see if I can come up with some comparison for them or at least an intended role that can be more easily balanced.
So the question is, how these are supposed to differ from Heavy missiles?
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Re: [balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

Postby travists » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:25 pm

I would think if a heavy fighter/bomber torpedo approaches a small vessel, a capship missile would well be the size of a fighter with commensurate warhead size.
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Re: [balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

Postby TBeholder » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:39 pm

Thus, light/medium/heavy -missile an light/medium/heavy -capship-missile ranges overlap. Which raises a question why more ship don't carry light-capship-missile?
Another approach: make X-missile < X-capship-missile. Then:
heavy-missile: weapons fit for bomber class - Cluster, maybe short range heavy-punch missile(s)
light-capship-missile: big long-range AKVs such as Torpedo and EMPTorpedo; medium drones, lighter interceptors on launchers.
medium-capship-missile: fighters on launchers.

Light drones (maybe also swarm-box and/or scatter pack of light missiles) are medium-missile (like Porcupine) or heavy-missile, depending on propellant/drives and how much total ammo they carry.
AdvTorpedo is probably still light-capship-missile, though i'd tone down at least one property.
CapIFF - depending on what it's supposed to do. E.g. if it's tortoise-buster with Torpedo warhead, but range, durability and flight parameters comparable to FF - it's heavy-missile. If it's weaker, but longer-range Torpedo, it's light-capship-missile.
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Re: [balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

Postby zog_the_primitive » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:35 am

I think capital IFF should have a focus against larger vessels. CapIFF could be made to have damage similar to a dumbfire rocket with the range of the capship missiles (I've never been convinced that those were spec capable like they should be, so maybe make the CapIFF way faster) and high durability so they don't get shot down by turrets. A possible application would be for the CapIFF to be fired in huge salvos to soften up targets for strikes from larger missiles.
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Re: [balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

Postby TBeholder » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:58 pm

Capship missiles got to be a "bigger than small craft missiles" category, because if heavy-missile is bigger, there's the question - why small craft won't carry light-capship-missile? And then categories are muddled.

zog_the_primitive wrote:I think capital IFF should have a focus against larger vessels. CapIFF could be made to have damage similar to a dumbfire rocket with the range of the capship missiles

More than dumbfire, since Resignation is a heavier version of Dumbfire (it's currently a bolt with damage 30k+10k = 50x Dumbfire, but obviously can be turned into an armored unguided missile) and torpedo is 800k+100k.
Otherwise, yeah. Against light vessels they probably would use small missiles on a short range.
Or CapCluster. Which of course should be deadlier-wider-area-uber-Cluster rather than just longer-range Cluster (forewarned targets would simply scatter).
And against capships on short range, either heavier but less maneuverable or right down to Resignation.
zog_the_primitive wrote: (I've never been convinced that those were spec capable like they should be, so maybe make the CapIFF way faster) and high durability so they don't get shot down by turrets.
This means more armor durability than it have hull now. Torpedo got 50 front / 5 aft armor.
Also, currently neither torpedo nor capiff have Warp_Capacitor and thus they aren't really SPEC-able.
But if they'll be resistant to normal PD damage, they should be shot by anti-ship turrets - capships have these, too.
So long-range missiles could have time to accelerate with weaker thrusters, but would be rather easy to intercept either way.
zog_the_primitive wrote: A possible application would be for the CapIFF to be fired in huge salvos to soften up targets for strikes from larger missiles.
Enough to overload turrets of ships other than specialized antimissile platforms and at very least force capships to launch interceptors? That's a good point, though probably this could be done via big package that scatters a bunch of smaller missiles or less maneuverable, but decently armored "bombs" when it approaches the target.
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Re: [balance] CapIFF sucks, even where it should not

Postby zog_the_primitive » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:46 am

I'm working on modding my own game to make projectile weapons and missiles more useful. Right now light-missiles have a 100 km range, medium-missiles have 500,000 km range, heavy-missiles have a 2,000,000 km range, and both light-capship-missile and heavy-capship-missiles have a 6,000,000 km range. Torps have are more maneuverable and have had their damage toned down quite a bit, that said they still will take out most ships smaller than a kierkegaard. Both categories of capship missile take up twice the space of a heavy-missile (all heavies take up 100 now). The missile's armor and hull ratings have all gone up (100, 200, 400, 800 hull damage respectively, front armor is 1/10th of the hull, rear is 1/20 or the hull).

While some people might question why the ranges are so high, I think they should consider the application of the missiles. Light-missiles have low damage and will mostly be used for dogfighting, medium-missiles are a first strike option against fighters and while they have a long range, but they are still slow and easily evaded if you are away from a gravity well. Long range missiles can take out most small craft, but they could double in role as a salvo fire weapon against large, stationary targets such as a space station or capship. Both capshipmissile types can be used similar to the latter application of heavy-missiles, but they have greater survivability (they can still be shot down easily if one isn't careful, I tested it). I have sub-capitols mounting capship missiles (kierkegaard can carry 8 and the goddard can carry 16).

Multi warhead missiles are an option that hadn't occured to me. The best way I could think of doing it would be to make a new kind of missile similar to the porcupine mine, but launching missiles instead. It's a cool idea and probably such a weapon fits into the capship missile category. I think it would be even better if the sub-munitions could target multiple targets, but I'd have to do some thinking on how to do that.

If anyone expresses an interest in my mod, I'd be happy to release it once I'm happy with the gameplay balance.
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