Random Death & missing wingmen

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klauss
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Re: Random Death & missing wingmen

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:I think profit sharing doesn't really address the issue. If you put together a team of escorts for a big bounty mission, but they fail to contribute to the battle and then show up to collect their cut of the bounty, that will be equally demoralizing. Players still will not use escorts.
Yes, but they may contribute by merely drawing fire. And at the very least, it will make the contracting of them a less risky proposition (right now, it's risky, very).
Deus Siddis wrote:The way the game is currently balanced, combined with the way the escort AI is so terrible at everything, you could make escorts cost nothing and persist indefinitely and players would not bother with them.
But assume we fix it. Because you have to assume things will eventually work out. Then you have to remove their allegiance at some point, and you're back to square 1.
Deus Siddis wrote:Just the time spent traveling to the escort rendezvous point is not worth it when they contribute 1% as much to a fight as ambient factional NPCs, let alone the time spent cat-herding the escorts to the actual battle space.
Again, assume that's going to be fixed by a separate effort. The point here is about them disappearing.
Deus Siddis wrote:I believe getting players to use escorts at all requires that:
  • Escorts cost almost nothing.
Nope. It requires escorts to be an economically viable option. Profit-sharing is that. Adjust the share if you want to match their quality.
Deus Siddis wrote:[*] Escorts appear in vicinity of player where they were hired, not at a distant rendezvous.
Good point and a doable point.
Deus Siddis wrote:[*] Universe spawns far more of hostile NPCs and far fewer of helpful ones.[/list]
[/quote]
Well, it's not necessary. There's plenty of cases where escorts are necessary even with today's balance state. I agree, background NPC traffic usually works well enough as "free escorts", but that's a wholly different game balance aspect.

Trying to fix all at once will be trying to chew a whole jawbreaker at once, without any titanium molar reinforcement. Better to do small bites at a time.
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Re: Random Death & missing wingmen

Post by Deus Siddis »

klauss wrote:But assume we fix it. Because you have to assume things will eventually work out.
I don't know, that assumption could be part of the problem; balancing things based on how they might someday work rather than how they need to work for the upcoming version.

I see factional flight groups spread across a whole system, not helping each other out when attacked, not fighting cohesively. The group AI looks broken, but how and where it is broken is unclear from observing AI groups. Getting players to command flight groups themselves (through hired escorts) could bring the deficiencies in this code to light.
Again, assume that's going to be fixed by a separate effort. The point here is about them disappearing.
The disappearing could in fact be an AI issue. If there is python code that releases an escort after a certain time limit or other criteria, and this is what is malfunctioning, then commenting it out will making hired escorts never leave your side. But if they continue to disappear then it is more likely an AI issue (or several). I am betting it is an AI issue personally. :)
Deus Siddis wrote:[*] Escorts appear in vicinity of player where they were hired, not at a distant rendezvous.
Good point and a doable point.
I just wish I knew how...
Deus Siddis wrote:[*] Universe spawns far more of hostile NPCs and far fewer of helpful ones.[/list]
Well, it's not necessary. There's plenty of cases where escorts are necessary even with today's balance state. I agree, background NPC traffic usually works well enough as "free escorts", but that's a wholly different game balance aspect.

Trying to fix all at once will be trying to chew a whole jawbreaker at once, without any titanium molar reinforcement. Better to do small bites at a time.
I had actually started to make some progress on this, at least as far as the size of factional flight groups if not the number of them. So it might not be too hard to have pirates show up in groups of a dozen, while militia shows up in groups of one.
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Re: Random Death & missing wingmen

Post by klauss »

Deus Siddis wrote:
Deus Siddis wrote:[*] Escorts appear in vicinity of player where they were hired, not at a distant rendezvous.
Good point and a doable point.
I just wish I knew how...
I bet the going somewhere part is coded explicitly on the mission script, so it's as simple as removing all that, and launching around the player. I think. I'm at work and can't check.
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Re: Random Death & missing wingmen

Post by VGSailor »

I have now flown several missions with wingmen, and I can offer the following commentary regarding wingmen in general, as well as some details about them.

To me, the planet trapping problem is the biggest issue. Most Clean Sweep missions require you to visit at least one planet. If you happen to encounter enemies while patrolling that planet, you're fighting them on your own, period. Wingmen are useless near planets. They just get stuck somewhere and don't make any effort to move toward the hostile targets, regardless of what commands you may send them.

And, of course, this same problem adds several hours to any mission you might fly with them, because cat-herding them away from the planet back out into SPECcable space takes FOREVER.

I have found - since I accepted the reality that flying a mission with wingmen takes on average about three hours longer than flying without them - that I can pretty much keep my wingmen around for the entire mission. (The case I previously posted of the presumed death of a wingman being a notable exception.) That being said, I think the following change might make flying with wingmen more productive, enjoyable and/or profitable.
  • Establish (and show) ahead of time what kind of ships the wingmen will be piloting.
For example, I recently flew a mission with two Rlaan wingmen. I ended up having to fly the mission several times before completing it, and I noticed that, every time I reloaded my save game and attempted the mission, my wingmen would show up in different ships. It wasn't a problem when they would show up in ShengZongs, but it was a bit of a disappointment when they showed up in Shizus, whose guns were totally impotent against the Vendettas I was tangling with.

I have had wingmen contribute in battles, although I've also watched them get fried in an instant when the wrong ship got them in a target lock. It seems to me the "Break Off" command is a little weak. The only effect I've noticed it having is to have my wingmen abandon me to pursue some other distant target, which may or may not have been a target specified in the mission.
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Re: Random Death & missing wingmen

Post by TBeholder »

VGSailor wrote:To me, the planet trapping problem is the biggest issue. Most Clean Sweep missions require you to visit at least one planet. If you happen to encounter enemies while patrolling that planet, you're fighting them on your own, period. Wingmen are useless near planets. They just get stuck somewhere and don't make any effort to move toward the hostile targets, regardless of what commands you may send them.

And, of course, this same problem adds several hours to any mission you might fly with them, because cat-herding them away from the planet back out into SPECcable space takes FOREVER.
I strongly suspect it's caused by NPC autopilot (resource cheap "WarpTo") problem.
I could try to fix this. It's long overdue. In fact, the bug with capships blasting toward the planet surface is likely to have the same reason - they dock and undock just like with a station, but then proceed directly toward some destination in the "lower" hemisphere.
The only problem here is that this must be done raising CPU consumption as little as possible, otherwise we could just as well use PC autopilot ("LongHaul") instead.
VGSailor wrote:
  • Establish (and show) ahead of time what kind of ships the wingmen will be piloting.
For example, I recently flew a mission with two Rlaan wingmen. I ended up having to fly the mission several times before completing it, and I noticed that, every time I reloaded my save game and attempted the mission, my wingmen would show up in different ships. It wasn't a problem when they would show up in ShengZongs, but it was a bit of a disappointment when they showed up in Shizus, whose guns were totally impotent against the Vendettas I was tangling with.
Yup, without as much as tactical Role fixed it's not very meaningful. That's a part of the whole "event-centered vs simulation-centered" issue. But even for now can be fixed - after all, bounty target types are pre-generated, so there's an already working way to do it.
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Re: Random Death & missing wingmen

Post by Deus Siddis »

TBeholder wrote: I strongly suspect it's caused by NPC autopilot (resource cheap "WarpTo") problem.
...
The only problem here is that this must be done raising CPU consumption as little as possible, otherwise we could just as well use PC autopilot ("LongHaul") instead.
So... why not just use the more expensive option that actually works and reduce system traffic to compensate? Do we really prefer populating systems with hundreds of coarsely simulated NPCs that get stuck on planets, plow through the mesh of a station, do not move or fight cohesively as groups and cannot follow the simplest orders effectively?

Let's have a tenth as many NPCs with each spending ten fold more time thinking.
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Re: Random Death & missing wingmen

Post by VGSailor »

Deus Siddis wrote: So... why not just use the more expensive option that actually works and reduce system traffic to compensate? Do we really prefer populating systems with hundreds of coarsely simulated NPCs that get stuck on planets, plow through the mesh of a station, do not move or fight cohesively as groups and cannot follow the simplest orders effectively?

Let's have a tenth as many NPCs with each spending ten fold more time thinking.
I think this would be a great idea. Having fewer ships in the system would provide several benefits. It would make it easier to keep tabs on your wingmen and it would make it easier to locate salvageable cargo. And it would also cut down on the overall number of random hostiles (i.e. the ones that chase after you simply because you happen to have a negative reputation with their faction). I don't mind having to vaporize an occasional Uln Entourage, but being constantly attacked is annoying.
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Re: Random Death & missing wingmen

Post by klauss »

TBeholder wrote:
VGSailor wrote:To me, the planet trapping problem is the biggest issue. Most Clean Sweep missions require you to visit at least one planet. If you happen to encounter enemies while patrolling that planet, you're fighting them on your own, period. Wingmen are useless near planets. They just get stuck somewhere and don't make any effort to move toward the hostile targets, regardless of what commands you may send them.

And, of course, this same problem adds several hours to any mission you might fly with them, because cat-herding them away from the planet back out into SPECcable space takes FOREVER.
I strongly suspect it's caused by NPC autopilot (resource cheap "WarpTo") problem.
I could try to fix this. It's long overdue. In fact, the bug with capships blasting toward the planet surface is likely to have the same reason - they dock and undock just like with a station, but then proceed directly toward some destination in the "lower" hemisphere.
The only problem here is that this must be done raising CPU consumption as little as possible, otherwise we could just as well use PC autopilot ("LongHaul") instead.
Do you think ASAP logic would be too demanding on the CPU?

Because last I checked, it seemed rather simple logic. Maybe there's a few bottlenecks when checking for gravitational units, but I think that can be worked around after-the-fact (caching for instance is a good idea here, since closest gravitational unit tends to be a rather stable value).

And if we can make ASAP the standard for NPC point-to-point travel, we could work on it further and improve both, user AP and NPC travel, and that would, I think, be good.
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Re: Random Death & missing wingmen

Post by TBeholder »

Logic, of course not. Calculations and functions, maybe, especially as there's still some stuff that's sketch or stubbed. I assume it's why there are two autopilots in the first place.
But yeah, if that's really why NPC derp in gravity wells, Deus Siddis is right - this wastes more resources on redundant idling NPC than it saves.
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More wingman woes.

Post by VGSailor »

After now having flown dozens of missions with wingmen, I can comfortably say that the two biggest problems are:
  • Getting trapped at planets.
  • - You have to wait for what feels like hours for wingmen to escape the gravity well of planets. I've gotten to the point where I can wake them up and get them to follow me, but I can sit and watch my target screen as they move closer to me at a bit less than 1 km per second, waiting literally 10 minutes as they slowly work their way out of the planet's interdiction zone.
  • Getting too close to my ship
  • - I can't count the number of times I've had my wingman drop out of SPEC and then crash right into me. (Or stop right in front of me so I crash into him.) Last time, he survived the collision, but from that point on he considered me hostile and was shooting at me for the rest of the flight.
Is there any way to fix these things?
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Re: More wingman woes.

Post by Deus Siddis »

VGSailor wrote:After now having flown dozens of missions with wingmen, I can comfortably say that the two biggest problems are:
Getting trapped at planets.
- You have to wait for what feels like hours for wingmen to escape the gravity well of planets. I've gotten to the point where I can wake them up and get them to follow me, but I can sit and watch my target screen as they move closer to me at a bit less than 1 km per second, waiting literally 10 minutes as they slowly work their way out of the planet's interdiction zone.
Are the wingmen farther into the interdiction zone then you are, when you all leave the planet?
Getting too close to my ship
- I can't count the number of times I've had my wingman drop out of SPEC and then crash right into me. (Or stop right in front of me so I crash into him.) Last time, he survived the collision, but from that point on he considered me hostile and was shooting at me for the rest of the flight.
The AI considering a collision to be an attack is more of a bug than a feature. It should be disabled in my opinion.
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Re: More wingman woes.

Post by VGSailor »

Deus Siddis wrote: Are the wingmen farther into the interdiction zone then you are, when you all leave the planet?
It's hard to tell. Whenever I get anywhere near a planet with wingmen, they just stop somewhere. They stop acting on my instructions and just park themselves somewhere, paying no heed whatsoever to where I am, what I am doing or what I ask them to do. They obviously end up somewhere inside the planet's interdiction zone, but, again, where they end up seems to have no relationship at all to where I am, so when I am ready to leave the planet, they are always in some other random place.
Deus Siddis wrote: The AI considering a collision to be an attack is more of a bug than a feature. It should be disabled in my opinion.
I agree completely. I realize it would mean that you could conceivably ram another ship to death before it makes any attempt to defend itself, but any ship that would get destroyed before yours does after multiple collisions would probably die after, at most, the second collision, so I don't see the issue. The first one was an accident, the second one, it's dead. Okay. And even if that were the case, I personally would never resort to such tactics, so I'd be perfectly happy with the ability to bump into my wingmen, or bases, without them turning their guns on me.
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