Italian translation

Discussion and planning of required developer support for multiple languages, and design and commentary on tools and techniques to assist with the automation of generating language specific structures.

Postby targ collective » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:07 am

Once again, there are three important values: Key, Name and the first column in master_part_list. Name controls what appears ingame. master_part_list references the Key - ensure there is a corresponding Key. Finally, in the Cargo value, ensure that places are selling using he translated tree structure; if you dock at a mining base, say, with {natural_products/Liquor} in the Cargo cell, obviously you'll have problems picking up Prodotti_Naturali there.

Simplest solution: Find all occurances of natural_products and replace them with prodotti_naturali via find/replace dialogue. Shouldn't be an issue in translate so long as you mirror your changes in master_part_list (pick up CSVomatic in User Tools for that last).

Is that enough help for you? Still confused? Just ask, it's my pleasure to help where I can. ;)

EDIT: Most of this is pretty badly documented. Just consider me your source for now; you'll get the hang of it soon.
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Postby Dilloh » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:38 am

There might also be some python scripts referring to the trading system, those could also store the relevant names. Check out the modules or bases folders.
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Postby targ collective » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:24 am

Are you sure? As far as ingame text goes (which is the base of a translation) only the Name variable should be essential... Unless you mean the GUI itself?
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Postby mastra » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:15 am

Targ collective, I did exactly what you suggested: Opened the unit.csv file with Notepad and replaced all instances of "Natural_Products" with "Prodotti_Naturali" using ctrl-h macro.
After that, using the launcher, I selected "Continue previous game" and no natural products were available in the game menu.
I decided to try another option: "Start new pilot" and now all the items were available from the menu!!!! :shock:
Now the question is: the unit.csv file is read everytime or is it read only when a new game is created?
I'll try some other experiment with this just to be sure.
Thank you for your precious help.
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Postby mastra » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:35 am

Update: tried another change in units.csv and selected "Continue previous game". The menu was up-to-date.
Now I wonder why the first time it didn't work ...
Well, the most important thing is that now I'm able to change the in-game menu (finally :roll: ) so I can go on with the translation.
Thanks a lot for your support!
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Postby targ collective » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:19 pm

Always a pleasure. Note it's not updated 'on-the-fly' but on load. I imagine that's why - close then reload to see your changes.

Not sure what Dilloh meant, but do search the Modules and Bases files (Dilloh knows more about this than I). Notepad++ is particularly good for searching within files, and is platform-independent to boot, so why not grab that to do it?

EDIT: Oh, I think I know what he means. He must be referring to cargo the game generates; ie in missions (plot-based) and pilots (ejecting).

I know in PR, PU etc factionships.py stores data on items made allowable over progress through the plot (quite a neat system, actually) but to the best of my knowledge the code, through neccessity, refers to the Key rather than the Name. So if you change the Key in units.csv for the explosives you transport for the Patron (I forget his name) then you'll have to find the file those explosives are generated in (most likely privateer.py or campaign.py or similar) and change the key there too.

So like I said, try Notepad++ when editing any value to be sure (when changing Keys) you're not breaking things; or, content yourself with changing just the Name field and warning future translators off that field.
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Postby Dilloh » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:41 am

Ssavegames often store informations about things you have in your hold, have encountered, or are currently somewhat important in the universe.

The game checks your save first, than loads "the rest" from units.csv - without overwriting.

For example, if you fly a Freetrader and make changes in units.csv to it, your save still has the "old" Freetrader stored. You need to sell it and buy a new one for having it access units.csv.

Not sure what Dilloh meant
Ah, not sure for myself... I once stumpled over a small python file which also had all cargos in it, but I cannot recall its name. Obviously, it was just a table where the names were not relevant. Damned Alzheimer. :roll:
So like I said, try Notepad++ when editing any value to be sure
Is this program capable of changing csvs? Could you give me a link targ, my old csv editor messes all things up too often...
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Postby targ collective » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:14 am

For CSVs, try Ismeagain's editor (at least for master_part_list). He's active and open to feedback. Notepad++ is not advised for that purpose as, to the best of my knowledge, there is no tabular display mode (the thing does everything else - syntax highlighting, filetype searches - though).

You can find CSVomatic in dev tools and utilities, in these very forums.

EDIT: Ah, you must mean serialised_xml? Mastra, perhaps you should forget about changing Keys altogether - stick to the Names and everything should change ingame. (For a practical demonstration of how this works look at the internal and external names used in SVN right now; most sequences of items use roman numerals ingame and numbers in the code.)

EDIT: Ah, sorry, N++ is Windows only. My mistake. :(
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Postby Dilloh » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:03 pm

alright thx targ! I'm using btw so I'll check out the tips.
'been using csveditor2 for quite a while, but it seems to turn out a problem if you hack a file that went through so many hands and editors.

Uhm... off topic... :oops:
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Postby CoD » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 am

Here I'm back after a long long period of hard work.
I'm sorry I didn't read this thread before!

I'm the official Italian translator of the game S.C.O.U.R.G.E. and I work in the Faculty of Foreign languages here in my city (which is Genova)

I don't know if I can help a bit. Let me know :wink:
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Postby mastra » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:06 pm

Well CoD, you're welcome!
In this moment theer's two people working on that, but we decided to wait a moment to work on the next month stable release. In the emantime, we're studying the structure of the files and experimenting to understand how the changes we make reflects on the game.
Actually I already translated a good part of the cargo descriptions in the master_part_list.csv file and the related entries in the units.csv file, but now these files have been changed a lot and maybe I have to redo something. :(
That's why I decided not to continue with the translation of these files until the stable release is... well... released.
We absolutely need the help you can give us because the work to do is HUGE.
You can also PM me for any information (and also to double-check my translation, if you want).
By the way, I live in Genova too...
:o
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Postby CoD » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:04 am

The world is so small sometimes :grin:

How many italian translator are working at the moment? Maybe we could find a way to coordinate ourselves.
Professional translators teams usually use a "glossary" made by themselves: as long as the translation goes on, new terms are added to the team glossary, so that everyone in the team can use the same term to translate the original term...
For example: if we decided that "homeland security" should be translated with... uhm... let's say "Vigilanza locale", then we add this term to the glossary, bound to "homeland security".
When one of us will translate an entry with this term, he/she should use the common term we have decided, so that the translation will be homogeneous.
We should also have some place to discuss difficult translations :roll:

What do you thing about this?

Talking about code: may I ask developers why VS does not use gettext?
Well, I'm not a big fan of po files, but they have the advantage of moving all the strings to just one big file, this makes the translation progress really simpler.
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Postby bpsl » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:41 am

CoD wrote: How many italian translator are working at the moment? Maybe we could find a way to coordinate ourselves.


With you? Maybe 3, BUT I am not working, I am awaiting next release to start work. Site tell us August 2007, maybe it's true.

BTW, after reading other threads, maybe we should focalize first on simple things: manual, user guide and so on. It's easy to learn "natural products", but it's hard to read the beginners guide with Admiral (I don't remember) maybe speaking in slang.
And... some translation sound strange. "homeland security"?
"sicurezza locale", "vigilanza locale" ? Sic.

So, just my 2 eurocents: beginners guide, manual (with a note for differences between keyboard layouts), then... maybe bar, GNN, item description... oh, well... a LOT of work, but we have to start with something.

BTW, a note for next month: what about a mailing list, for easy file transfer and so on?

(buone vacanze!) :)
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I'm starting the italian translation of the Vega Strike Wiki

Postby utentenero » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:40 am

Hello,

I just started to translate the Wiki of this project. I am an user of italian wikipedia (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Kormoran) AND a fan of space games ^_^

I am willing to help game translation, too... maybe later, then :-)
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Postby mastra » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:50 am

@CoD: I absolutely agree with you about the glossary. I can prepare a list of the most problematic terms I encountered during the translation of the cargo items so you can check if my translation is appropriate (I'm REALLY unsure about some terms). The only problem is who should be in charge of management of the glossary file. My proposal is that there should be only one person in charge of the file update (maybe with a backup to handle RL problems...) and other people should submit new term proposals to the mailing list (@bpsl: good idea) and, when we agreed on a good translation, the responsible should update the glossary file and send the new file to the mailing list. Now we only need some volunteer...
@bpsl: It's not necessary to have everybody working on the same aspect of the game. Let me explain: There are lot of files written in C++/Python that may require some programming skill to be handled and there's all the documentation part (beginner's guide, manual and so on) that can be more easily modified even if you don't know the inner workings of the game; at a -let me say- intermediate level you find all the cvs files that require some technical knowledge but doesn't require recompiling the source code when modified. My proposal is that everybody should be working on what is more comfortable to him. As an example, I write some software also at work so, if required, I can try to work also with the C++ code and send the new executable file to the mailing list. If someone else has little/no experience on the field he could help with the manual and so on. What do you think about this?
@utentenero: Thank you very much. I think I can speak on behalf of everybody welcoming you aboard...

To conclude, if we all agree, we can wait the next release to work on the "real" files, but we can start working on the glossary (it shouldn't change a lot from the previous release, I hope).

Best regards to everybody.
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Postby Halleck » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:04 pm

I don't blame you for waiting. And hopefully we can fix the mod system or add a seperate translation switch that will allow more modular loading of translations. Right now I found a temporary solution for the german translation using the existing mod loading scheme.

Also, I'm fine with acting as a point-of-contact for SVN commits, but you should look into getting SVN commit access for whoever will be maintaining the translations...
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Postby CoD » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:18 am

I'm back from vacation :grin:

Mastra, don't worry about the glossary: I'm developing a complex php based glossary management system for work... it's ALL open source so I'll set up a copy of the latest stable version on my site, I'll modify it a bit to simplify some things and I'll give you a username and a password asap :wink:

We could use my system to create and quickly browse the glossary, but I still think we would need a forum or a mailing list to discuss translation policies and difficult texts.

Helleck: using a mod as a way to implement a translation seems a creative, crazy and very interesting idea :P
I'm curious about this method but you said it's a "temporary solution" so... maybe our "italian team" should focus on translating usual files and then switching to a modular system if and when it will be available.
Where should we commit our translations? Do we need a branch? :roll:
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Postby Halleck » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:30 pm

This is where I've been storing the italian in-game translation stuff:
http://vegastrike.svn.sourceforge.net/v ... /italiano/
This has everything I recieved on the italian 0.4.3 translation, and it's over a year old. I don't know if more stuff has been done on the ingame translation since then. I'm happy to update with any new files that have been made it or try to get commit access for a maintainer if nobody has it yet.

I outline how to use the "mod framework" in this thread about the german translation.

It's just doing it the same old way of replacing the data files (units.csv, master_part_list.csv, images with text on them, python files containing dialogue) but it keeps it all contained in the /mods/{language code} directory. The problem I had with it is that you can't go back to the regular english version without moving the translation pack out of the way.

So here's an adapted version of those instructions to work with the italian translation. I haven't tested this at all (might not work without a master_part_list.csv)

To install into an SVN working copy:
  1. create the directory /data4.x/mods/ and go into it.
  2. run this command (or the GUI equivalent):
    Code: Select all
    svn checkout https://vegastrike.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/vegastrike/trunk/translations/italiano/0.4.3/ il
  3. Copy or link /data4.x/factions.xml to /data4.x/mods/il/factions.xml and possibly do the same with master_part_list.csv
  4. Run vegastrike. If you are experiencing problems, run it from the command line like so:
    Code: Select all
    ./vegastrike -Mil

If you want to go back to English, for now you have to move the translation pack somewhere else.
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Postby CoD » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:32 am

Thanks... I'll test this method and check if it works.

Talking about svn... we'd need an account to commit italian translations. Where do we ask for it?


Hey if I'm asking too many questions just target me with your ktek beam and press fire... :P :mrgreen:
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Postby ace123 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:10 am

You can sign up for a sourceforge user if you don't have one...

Then you ask one of the project admins like me to add you to the project in order to give you SVN access.
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Postby Halleck » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:14 am

ace123 wrote:You can sign up for a sourceforge user if you don't have one...

Then you ask one of the project admins like me to add you to the project in order to give you SVN access.

Oops, I should have clarified that.

I think this works best if you pick someone to be your maintainer and handle all the commits.
If you want everyone on the project to have commit access it might be better to make a new project on sourceforge so you can have a seperate repository.
But this isn't official policy AFAIK... the project admins might give out accounts to everyone on the project who needs one, I don't know.
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Postby mastra » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:59 pm

OK guys, the new version we looked for has arrived. :D
I think we can start with the translation work.
I downloaded the beta version (not the SVN one) and I think it's a good starting point for our work.
I just installed it and I think I'll start to have a look at the files next week.

@CoD: If it's OK for you please let me have a link to your site so we can start working on the glossary.

P.S. If needed, I have an active sourceforge account.
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Postby mastra » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:31 am

@Halleck: I just tried to implement your solution to handle my translated files:
1) I created the mods/il directory
2) I copied my modified master_part_list in the new directory
3) I started the game with the -Mil option
It doesn't work. Everything I can see is in English.
What's wrong with my procedure? Did I miss something?
Thank you very much.
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Postby CoD » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:00 am

Sorry for being, as usual, late.

I'll set up a vegastrike glossary in the next 2 weeks: now I have to face with a code exposure on my server :(

Sorry guys, be patient :wink:
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Postby CoD » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:54 am

Uhm... I was quicker than I expected :wink:

Here is the Italian glossary for Vega Strike: http://cod-web.net/vegastrike/
I tried to match the style of the original website as much as possible without loosing the accessibility requisites ( 'cause I'm really concerned about accessibility :wink: )

This is just a copy of my software SIMURG for professional translators team, so it will be a bit difficult to use at the beginning: we don't need so many fields so we should just discuss what fields we will use.
Furthermore this version of the SIMURG engine is extremely new and beta... so expect little bugs... little problems.. some explosion too... :mrgreen:

I need to manually add accounts because I don't have a "register" page, so: ALL ITALIAN TRANSLATORS willing to join or test it, please, contact me at (my nick) @ F S F E . org


Hope it will be useful :wink:
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