WARP concept -- Brainstorming all

Discuss the Star Trek mod(s) for the Vega Strike Engine

Moderators: tillias, Jennos, peteyg

Post Reply
esgaroth
Confed Special Operative
Confed Special Operative
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:48 pm
Location: Konstanz, Germany

WARP concept -- Brainstorming all

Post by esgaroth »

Some of you might have noticed that the current solar system we have is incorrect, mainly in size (orbits are 3 orders of magnitude too small, etc.). I have adjusted the values and here http://hometown.aol.de/atreuter/vegatrek/sol.system you can download the now correctly sized sol system. Just replace the old system file (in sectors/beta) by this new one. You might edit the mission files and add more distance to the sun because if you dont you start very close to the sun...
But beware: the new system is huge (more than 8 light hours in diameter) like in real life, and flying around there takes quite some time, aven with warp/spec.
tillias
Black Hole Hunter
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:37 am
Location: Russian Federation, Voronezh
Contact:

Post by tillias »

Esgaroth, please don't waste your time!
I've been working over Sol concept for 2 months with hellcatv...
Made maybe 1500 mistakes and finally fixed it. Not all because of this:

The global idea is that WARP Multipliers -- Impulse Speed -- Insystem Distances ALWAYS work in bunch.

Changing one will apply to all others. So be very careful with those things...
God bless you!
tillias
Black Hole Hunter
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:37 am
Location: Russian Federation, Voronezh
Contact:

Post by tillias »

Look here before any posting:
http://deeplayer.com/vegatrek/docs/WARP_calculator.xls

This is very very preciese WARP calculator.
Though we will never use it in current state in VegaTrek :)

It is based on ditl.org, ex-sience sources and as you can see ready not for all ships.

This is just to understand what was done and how it woks...
God bless you!
tillias
Black Hole Hunter
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:37 am
Location: Russian Federation, Voronezh
Contact:

Post by tillias »

But damn, yes! We can star Warping concept now. We have all ships defineted -- Official ship pack. I've finally prepared all IMPULSE speeds. So noone prevents us from working on it ;-)
God bless you!
tillias
Black Hole Hunter
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:37 am
Location: Russian Federation, Voronezh
Contact:

Post by tillias »

So let's start.

First of all always keep in mind that on WARP9 you'll reach Pluto from Sun in 11 seconds. Everyone can look through Cochraine table on Ditl or other site...

This makes no sense in VegaTrek, this is game and it must be fun.
Imagine you want to catch enemy ship. You and enemy toggle on WARP and... We immediately go to another system, then another etc etc etc :)
Does it make any sense? Not!

But 200-500 seconds also seems very bad. So 1-3 minute I think...
Any ideas?
God bless you!
tillias
Black Hole Hunter
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:37 am
Location: Russian Federation, Voronezh
Contact:

Post by tillias »

Always keep in mind, that you should see most of every system's planets ( big of course ) on screen.
E.g. when you enter star system, you visually see 5-10 biggest planets of star system. Only this way you won't feel yourself alone in space. Just trust me :)

To make this we should avoid this situation:
Image

E.g. all planets are in #I area. And to fix warrping from system in 5-15 seconds we make area #2 which is almost inhabbitant. DO NOT DO THIS

Here is scheme of correct star system
Image

All planets should be mixed up equably
No empty space!.
God bless you!
esgaroth
Confed Special Operative
Confed Special Operative
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:48 pm
Location: Konstanz, Germany

Post by esgaroth »

Hi Tillias !
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:30 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Always keep in mind, that you should see most of every system's planets ( big of course ) on screen.
E.g. when you enter star system, you visually see 5-10 biggest planets of star system. Only this way you won't feel yourself alone in space. Just trust me :)
Well, I am sorry, but that doesnt appy to me :-) I have tried it several times with several sizes.
I just cant get used to orbiting earth and having Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune hovering above me like Luna. I have played around quite some time now with system sizes (and that was the reason why I asked you whether we shouls make systems real size or not via pm ). Having the real size is way too big (trading will take forever, even with time compression), but the size the sol system has at the moment is simply too small for my taste.
The global idea is that WARP Multipliers -- Impulse Speed -- Insystem Distances ALWAYS work in bunch.
I know this, but the feeling of a crowded space just isnt my taste, either. Space IS vast. How about changing the distances one order of magnitude ?
This would make the closest planets visible (mars and venus from earth, maybe jupiter very small) but not all of them ? In my testing this made the most sense (visual and for flying times).
I will of course submit to any decision, but as this is a brainstorming I want to state my point here.
esgaroth
Confed Special Operative
Confed Special Operative
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:48 pm
Location: Konstanz, Germany

Post by esgaroth »

Hi Tillias !
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:30 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Always keep in mind, that you should see most of every system's planets ( big of course ) on screen.
E.g. when you enter star system, you visually see 5-10 biggest planets of star system. Only this way you won't feel yourself alone in space. Just trust me :)
Well, I am sorry, but that doesnt appy to me :-) I have tried it several times with several sizes.
I just cant get used to orbiting earth and having Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune hovering above me like Luna. I have played around quite some time now with system sizes (and that was the reason why I asked you whether we shouls make systems real size or not via pm ). Having the real size is way too big (trading will take forever, even with time compression), but the size the sol system has at the moment is simply too small for my taste.
The global idea is that WARP Multipliers -- Impulse Speed -- Insystem Distances ALWAYS work in bunch.
I know this, but the feeling of a crowded space just isnt my taste, either. Space IS vast. How about changing the distances one order of magnitude ?
This would make the closest planets visible (mars and venus from earth, maybe jupiter very small) but not all of them ? In my testing this made the most sense (visual and for flying times).
I will of course submit to any decision, but as this is a brainstorming I want to state my point here.
tillias
Black Hole Hunter
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:37 am
Location: Russian Federation, Voronezh
Contact:

Post by tillias »

Sure! Vast territoties, increase magnitude... Whatever you want!

Just keep 100-150 seconds to warp out system in any cases :)
God bless you!
Cruis.In
Trader
Trader
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:07 am
Contact:

Post by Cruis.In »

in the star trek universe.... ships did not use warp very often once inside a solar system. because it is so fast, the timing has to be so precise or you would end up ramming things, like a planet.

in best of both worlds with the borg, once the enterprise reaches SOL, it slows to sublight speed to catch up to the borg who are attacking Mars.

In deep space nine when kira has to destroy the changling who has taken the shape of doctor bashir and is flying a neutron bomb in to the bajor sun, they use warp for a very small jump to reach him in time. or something like that.

suffice to say, it is acceptable and CANON that star trek ships do not warp much inside solar systems.

I would hate to take one hour to fly at full impulse from earth to pluto but something acceptable can be done inside solar systems, warping from one end of the quadrant should take a while, and it will have to be minutes.

its amazing how 3 minutes can feel like along time when you are sitting staring at a screen in a game, that is supposed to be being played. that being said i dont think its a bad idea for it take take 5 minutes or 10 minutes at warp 9 to fly from one end of the alpha quadrant to the other, and like one minute to warp from earth to deep space nine.

is there a galaxy map you can access to click on a system to warp to it? and something to modify which canshow the amount of time it takes to get there? i will have to download vega strike as well, to better help me understand what can and cant be done with this mod.

so far i only downloaded vega trek and havent tried vega strike in a few years.
tillias
Black Hole Hunter
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:37 am
Location: Russian Federation, Voronezh
Contact:

Post by tillias »

Well Cruis, let's understand how it works firstly.
We have Warp_Capacitor for each ship -- it determines total amount of energy which can be used for Warping.
We have Warp_Energy_Usage variable per ship. It determines how much energy is used from Warp_Capacitor in 1 second, whie using WARP speed.

We have Min_Warp and Max_Warp variables per ship. While close to planet or ship ( or base or other object :) engine slows down ship to Min_Warp.
While in OpenSpace it switches to Max_Warp variable.

So, ya damn. We can simulate slow insystem warp ( warp1 for example ) and increase warp speed, when you want to leave system.

The problem is that I even don't have time to test it -- finishing arming ships from official ship pack and rebalancing them before October starts.
God bless you!
tillias
Black Hole Hunter
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:37 am
Location: Russian Federation, Voronezh
Contact:

Post by tillias »

As for star maps -- we DO have it. Without distances though...
But at least you can see how systems are linked, and where you will jump...
God bless you!
Cruis.In
Trader
Trader
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:07 am
Contact:

Post by Cruis.In »

tillias, maybe you should distribute the version and updates to it that you are working on, to us would-be contributors so we can help with that.

:P

ik am gooing now to look at these systems
Draken Stark
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:26 am
Location: Usually at my computer or on my couch

Bias Thoughts on Realism

Post by Draken Stark »

Well I'm a first here in the Vega Trek Forum (I came in form Privateer a while back...). Well I couldn't help but see what you're talking about here (sorry for ease dropping, but maybe a bias opinion would be good.)

Tell me that at night with a clear sky... You look up at the stars and tell me that you feel alone. What matters is that the planets look and feel real and alive as well as your background for space. When you’re orbiting earth you should see Jupiter as if you’re on earth - A bright dot in the distance kind of thing.

Think in a realistic sense and it'll be just as beautiful as real life. You just need some major artistic talent, and I for one don't have it but I do have a vivid mind on these kinds of things. In my opinion this is kind of what made Star Trek look and feel so real when they did the CG ship sceens. Ohh and the motion blur... ect.

Hope that helps with your discussion on the scaling.


Now on the warp Idea... (I know I was off topic. Sorry) You should be able to do any warp anywhere to anywhere else... Here's what I mean. Yes, there'd be some risk to just warp through a system without plotting a course, but that's the key! Plotting your courses would be the simpliest and smartest solution! Think about it! Sure plotting a course would be hard to do when you need a fast retreat from a fire fight... so you'd do a "blind warp" in a random direction and hope for the best (maybe plot as you run... Wouldn't be safe at all). Hope you understand what I mean. The reason in StarTrek that ships started to slow down their warp engines is because in an episode of ST:TNG they discovered that warp was fragmenting space (or something as bad as, say... creating a black hole) and poisoning the populations that inhabbited the nearby planets. So all federation starships are supposed to restrict themselves to (I can't remember which one exactly) warp 5 unless it's a dire emergency.

Again, (this last part of warp was edited in) so hope this helps with your brainstorming!
/v\4¥ 7|-|3 1337 |33 vv17|-| j00!
If you can't read it, it's obviously not.
rrogers40
Trader
Trader
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:43 am

Post by rrogers40 »

Another new person joining this discussion-
If I remember right- and I do- once in warp they cannot safely adjust there choice. Why? Cause they are going really fast and risk running into a planet or something else hard.

Now the systems need to be realistic but it shouldn't take three days to get where you are going. Thats why there needs to be a time compression that can handle everything. A good example of this is Orbiter sim. I don't know how many people have played it but its a super reasistic space sim, open source ect. Now because it takes a year to get to mars you can increase time so it only takes you five minuets.

Now because we are also shooting at other ships and we have other ships shooting at us we also need to be able to stop the time dilation immediately. So if you are destroyed we do not end up traveling three systems over before you realize it.
Plant Corn, Get Corn
rrogers40
Trader
Trader
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:43 am

Post by rrogers40 »

Another new person joining this discussion-
If I remember right- and I do- once in warp they cannot safely adjust there choice. Why? Cause they are going really fast and risk running into a planet or something else hard.

Now the systems need to be realistic but it shouldn't take three days to get where you are going. Thats why there needs to be a time compression that can handle everything. A good example of this is Orbiter sim. I don't know how many people have played it but its a super reasistic space sim, open source ect. Now because it takes a year to get to mars you can increase time so it only takes you five minuets.

Now because we are also shooting at other ships and we have other ships shooting at us we also need to be able to stop the time dilation immediately. So if you are destroyed we do not end up traveling three systems over before you realize it.
Plant Corn, Get Corn
simplex.spes
Trader
Trader
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: Canada Eh!

Post by simplex.spes »

I agree with Draken Stark, people should be able to warp whenever they want to. After all, you guys emphasize the fact that the game should seem "real", so when someone does something stupid, they should have "real" consequences.

This is what I don't really like about the original Vega Strike. The whole gravity/SPEC relationship restricts the player's freedom (from running away from hordes of enemy ships). I think, a better idea would be that when you are, say, 15 seconds from a solid object ahead, the "onboard computer" warns you to slow down. And in Vega Trek, if you set a course, the ship could even slow down by itself. Ehh, just an idea.

Now, onto the original question...
First of all, it would be really sad to see Jupiter right beside you while you are orbiting the Earth. Even if it was some way off, I'd still cringe. However, as you guys all said before, the game also needs to be fun. This is where you guys have to compromise.

I just thought of a question... (I'm no expert in Star Trek, I just enjoy the episodes (and seven of nine)) but is the warp factor a logarithmic scale? If it was, then I'd say that Warp 6 could get your anywhere in a solar system pretty fast... of course, Warp 0 would then be exactly the speed of light...

I think the highest multiplier in VS is 3*10^8 (which doesn't actually make sense if you think about it) but if Warp was a logarithmic scale, then you could travel at 1 billion times the speed of light... Not bad for inter-system travel... (Of course, I'd suggest to travel in a straight line, even the slightest turn would rip the ship apart (inertia))

You know, traveling doesn't have to be boring (although sometimes I wish it was, it would give me some time to wipe the nacho cheese from my fingers before I start pounding on keys again). There could be some random events that could make space travel interesting (and dangerous)

"Oh no! We are being intercepted by an unknown ship! Do we bring out the diplomat or the photon torpedoes?"

Or you could meet a ship stranded in space with no fuel left and sell some of your own for a hefty profit. Or you could just trade with other cargo ships. Or you could meet a new wingman who'd like to join your group. Or you could come across all sorts of goodies that are likely to be floating around in space (maybe even an old Ford... wonder how that got there O.o)

Of course, traveling can't always be exciting, sometimes it may be boring as well, but some people might prefer having a peaceful few minutes to relax (check their e-mail) before dropping out of warp in an enemy system with phasers firing.

In any case, you guys have to understand that this game (and VS) is a game with virtually no end (and if the game can be over, it will take a damned long time). Trying to capture the player's attention for the whole of that indefinite amount of time is pretty much impossible.

_____________

Edit: Actually, I did some calculating... at Warp 9 (1 000 000 000x C) it would take around 6.3 seconds to travel 200 light years...
(It would take about an hour to travel from one end of our galaxy to the other... not bad if you think about it)
Draken Stark
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:26 am
Location: Usually at my computer or on my couch

Post by Draken Stark »

Recall Holo decks? say you're warping to a place really far and you do want to do something other than sit and be bored. Pop up a battle sim to practice up or waste your time! maybe do some damage reports or have your crew (with your help as the captain) do some research on your ships stats and try to optimise systems for a given task.

What ever goes on onboard your ship there's always a chance of a sudden red or yellow alert and get called to the bridge. Besides.. the goal of Starfleet is to explore, build alliances, and patrol/gaurd areas of interest from Starfleet Command.
/v\4¥ 7|-|3 1337 |33 vv17|-| j00!
If you can't read it, it's obviously not.
klauss
Elite
Elite
Posts: 7243
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm
Location: LS87, Buenos Aires, República Argentina

Post by klauss »

I wouldn't mind at all some kind of ship mantenance - like overviewing ship repairs and/or mantainance ops, reviewing crew assignments/status (morale and stuff), etc... sub sims usually have a lot of that, so sub sims are probably the best place to look for ideas... to borrow...
I'm thinking of the Silent Hunter series, but there probably are others.
Oíd mortales, el grito sagrado...
Call me "Menes, lord of Cats"
Wing Commander Universe
Post Reply